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2014/05/30 14:42:25
Subject: Woman stoned to death after she marries man who murdered his first wife
Why do people get so upidity about this? Technically, no. But you can't really talk about Pakistan without talking about the Middle East, so getting annoyed every time someone mentions the Middle East in reference to Pakistan is as bizarre as getting annoyed every time someone mentions Europe in reference to Turkey.
Because you're using such a huge fething brush to talk about the "middle east" that you're slopping paint on other countries.
Know what the hell you're talking about or just sit this one out and let the grown ups talk.
Kronk you sexy beast, no need to get upset. Islamic countries would've probably be a better name for it. Though I have no clue what Pakistan's history is. My comment was aimed at the religion and culture derived from it.
2014/05/31 02:00:44
Subject: Re:Woman stoned to death after she marries man who murdered his first wife
Because you're using such a huge fething brush to talk about the "middle east" that you're slopping paint on other countries.
Right...
The problem with the statement you responded to was that it blamed theologists for the decline of the Islamic Golden age, which is bunk given that theologists were the ones who created it in the first place (which would seem to suggest having some theologists running around wasn't really the problem). Identifying Pakistan as culturally linked to the Middle East when is just a fact.
Know what the hell you're talking about or just sit this one out and let the grown ups talk.
Pretty much every poster in every thread about Islam except for like five people should probably take that advice, but they never do because they assume the entire history of the Muslim world can be described as "it has Mulsims." Given that the Abbasid movement that overthrew Umayyad rule drew a lot of its support from what is today northern and western Pakistan (and that's not mentioning the Ghaznavids later and earlier influence in Caliphate politics) I feel pretty confident I actually do know what I'm talking about when discussing Pakistan's Middle Eastern influenced culture and history. You try separating them from centuries of direct Persian influence. Let me know how that works out for you (it won't). Even today Pakistan has more culturally in common with Iran than it does other Central or South Asian states.
Instead of knee jerking over a wrong statement think about why its wrong. Its what grown ups should do
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/05/31 02:16:27
West keeps supporting savages to destabilise the region. These savages sell a false history of Islam. Thereby the west feeds the process. Do you not understand?
The west backs the biggest Islamofacists - the salafist saudis.
What the hell do you think SAUDI Arabia is?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/05/31 15:03:37
2014/05/31 16:10:34
Subject: Woman stoned to death after she marries man who murdered his first wife
Because you're using such a huge fething brush to talk about the "middle east" that you're slopping paint on other countries.
Right...
The problem with the statement you responded to was that it blamed theologists for the decline of the Islamic Golden age, which is bunk given that theologists were the ones who created it in the first place (which would seem to suggest having some theologists running around wasn't really the problem). Identifying Pakistan as culturally linked to the Middle East when is just a fact.
Know what the hell you're talking about or just sit this one out and let the grown ups talk.
Pretty much every poster in every thread about Islam except for like five people should probably take that advice, but they never do because they assume the entire history of the Muslim world can be described as "it has Mulsims." Given that the Abbasid movement that overthrew Umayyad rule drew a lot of its support from what is today northern and western Pakistan (and that's not mentioning the Ghaznavids later and earlier influence in Caliphate politics) I feel pretty confident I actually do know what I'm talking about when discussing Pakistan's Middle Eastern influenced culture and history. You try separating them from centuries of direct Persian influence. Let me know how that works out for you (it won't). Even today Pakistan has more culturally in common with Iran than it does other Central or South Asian states.
Instead of knee jerking over a wrong statement think about why its wrong. Its what grown ups should do
If you are as enlightened as you claim, you would understand why people get tired of the less-than-enlightened using such broad brushes about "those guys over there!"
Why do people get so upidity about this? Technically, no.
1. I wasn't uppity. Go read my post again. Any malice came from your own mind.
2. My reply to you was coarse because of your post. By your own admission, you know that Pakistan is in the middle east, but seemed up in arms when someone else got corrected or asked to clarify their belief.
When you're wrong and someone calls you out on it, you don't lash out and say "Get over it!" You're the one that was wrong.
DA:70S+G+M+B++I++Pw40k08+D++A++/fWD-R+T(M)DM+
2014/05/31 17:07:52
Subject: What a wonderful country and culture to stone a woman to death over a marriage
During the medieval period the Islamic world was significantly more advanced then 'the West'.
RegalPhantom wrote: If your fluff doesn't fit, change your fluff until it does
The prefect example of someone missing the point.
Do not underestimate the Squats. They survived for millenia cut off from the Imperium and assailed on all sides. Their determination and resilience is an example to us all.
-Leman Russ, Meditations on Imperial Command book XVI (AKA the RT era White Dwarf Commpendium).
Its just a shame that they couldn't fight off Andy Chambers.
Warzone Plog
2014/05/31 17:39:36
Subject: What a wonderful country and culture to stone a woman to death over a marriage
1. I wasn't uppity. Go read my post again. Any malice came from your own mind.
I don't assign malice to uppitiness.
2. My reply to you was coarse because of your post. By your own admission, you know that Pakistan is in the middle east, but seemed up in arms when someone else got corrected or asked to clarify their belief.
No by my own admission, I find it bizarre that in that statement you'd nitpick geography, and in a later post clarified that I found it odd because another side of that same statement was rightly false but instead you honed in on the one that's only false by an arbitrary or uninformed view of geo-history. The later I find equally odd given that you decided to hold up the "know the material before you speak" card.
Palindrome wrote: During the medieval period the Islamic world was significantly more advanced then 'the West'.
Not just that, but there's reason to suspect that the works of Islamic scholars greatly influenced later European scholars. George Saliba is a complete quack, but the man had a point when he held up Copernicus' model of the heliocentric universe and then held up one created centuries prior by a Muslim Cleric. The two drawings were nearly identical. Yeah, the clerics math was wrong, but the similarities in the diagrams does raise the brow.
The Islamic Golden Age basically created the distinction between Philosophy and Science. Al-Hazen was the first man to utilize the scientific method (while also being the father of Optics and the Law of Refraction centuries before any European really thought about it).
Ronin is commenting on the habit of Western powers throughout the last 300 years to back the more radical fringes of the Islamic religion, something the US does today by supporting the Saudi family (and earlier when it armed the men who became the Taliban and Al-Qaeda). We've played a bigger than small role in encouraging these elements in the Islamic world.
Palindrome wrote: During the medieval period the Islamic world was significantly more advanced then 'the West'.
Yeah, but Soladrin spoke of “the entire world”. Was that true for India and China too? Genuine question, not a rhetorical one, by the way.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/31 17:50:06
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/05/31 18:01:58
Subject: What a wonderful country and culture to stone a woman to death over a marriage
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Was that true for India and China too? Genuine question, not a rhetorical one, by the way.
The Golden Age lasted a long time (EDIT: 7th Century to the 14th or 15th depending on who you ask). It's probably true for some of it but not all of it. The Tang Dynasty was going pretty strong when it started and the Tang Dynasty was a major high point for China. See Battle of Talas for one of the defining moments of history on the Asian continent. The battle played a role in the damage the Lushan Rebellion did to the Tang, a Rebellion that in turn, opened the gates for the conquests of Central Asia by the Caliphate. It's not completely wrong for one to say that the Muslim world helped topple the Tang Dynasty and start another bloody period of war in China (the bloodiest since the 3 Kingdoms Era) that would go on until the 13th century.
At the same time, the battle also played a roll in the rapid flourishing of Paper Making in the middle east, which of course eventually made its way to Europe.
Scientifically, I don't know much about India at this time period (I know they were part of the larger Islamic study and progress of Astronomy but that's it). Economically during the Middle Ages they were the most powerful economy in the world by some estimates, what with Tang collapsing.
The Islamic Golden Age is odd because it presents a radical jump forward for a region that even at the time looks backwards (researchers today are still trying to define exactly how it started in the first place). One could easily argue they were at the top for quite awhile, especially in the ninth and tenth centuries when the Golden Age was at its peak.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/05/31 18:06:45
Thank you, this is interesting. I heard some talking that the Arabs basically got everything from Indians and ancient Greeks and stuff, but those were not exactly from the most objective and unbiased people, so I was curious about what of it was true. I also heard they got everything from Persians .
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/06/01 02:37:36
Subject: Woman stoned to death after she marries man who murdered his first wife
The Arabs definitely picked up a lot from the Greeks, contemporaries of their time and the older Hellenistic period. Al-Hazen, who I mentioned above, was frequently called Ptolomy the Second, for his numerous commentaries on the work of Ptolomy and his own breakthroughs in numerous field (you could say he was the first true Renaissance Man ).
Look up The Last Great War of Antiquity, a conflict between the Byzantine Empire and Sassanid Persia that so weakened the two empires the Muslim Conquests just walked through the front door. As a result, the destruction frequent in old timey conquest didn't occur, and much of the knowledge of the regions conquered remained in tact for later Muslim Scholars.
I can't speak as to the India connection. So much history, so little reading time
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/01 02:41:13
During the medieval period the Islamic world was significantly more advanced then 'the West'.
Duh... I know the oversimplified claim and narrative that he is talking about but what does that have anything to do with the context of my posts, which he was replying to?
The latter part of the claim is really just pure nonsense I.e (theologians shut development down),
What happened in the late middle ages was the Mongol Invasions which caused a net drift decline in science and technology with a reawakening only occuring in the times of Timur.In that same period, the early Ottomans were exchanging scholars between Anatolia and Samarkland. Timur's grandson, Ulug Bey (son of Shahrukh) was a great astronomer. After the Timurid dynasty fell, the scholars left for India or Anatolia. So it's clear to me that science and technology is linked to the character and realities of the ruling states rather than Islam and theology itself.
When the great states that backed science fell and moreover went into decline, science did too.
Pretty hard to keep your empire together when Cengiz han is at your doorstep, let alone keep libraries and scholarly institutions working.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/06/01 05:54:30
