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Another strawman. I never mentioned unbound. But hey, you rail against that imaginary argument all you want.

Conceptually the book is superior. It's a GK book about GK. Not a GK book about GK, but mostly Inq and occasionally bad assassins. It means the books are all where they should be. Not mashed together. They're not tied to the fate of each other any longer

I guess it's not for you. Frankly, I could care less. If it's important to you, continue with the fifth ed book. I'll enjoy the change.

 TheKbob wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Because removing options completely is better than just balancing them properly! Great logic!

Sigh. More strawman fallacy I see.

Not at all what I said, but hey, qq all you want. The codex is better off one than previously, as a concept. It's now actually GK, not coteaz and friends.

Really? Because as a concept, a product that Games Workshop wants me to purchase at $50 USD, it fails. It has much less content and deleted the capabilities of playing my army in a reasonable fashion. And no, the hand wave of "Unbound" means you've already failed any sort of reason or logic.

Sorry, you can have all Inquisition, Assassins, and Grey Knights in one book and still offer all three as individual items. Then that's the best of both worlds for all players. Not reducing options, deleting stuff, and then charging triple the price to get it all back.

Now, to play devil's advocate, ask a Chaos Marines player if they like all the different Chaos and Traitor forces mashed together in one force that gives the flavor of each but doesn't explore either with much depth. If Chaos players were satisfied with this, why do they want separate books for each Chaos god or a book that explores and gives better rules to Legions like the Night Lords and Alpha Legion who work fundamentally different from their Chaos counterparts?

I see this as the same thing, the Sisters and Grey Knights may be apart of the Inquisition but are fundamentally different from the Inquisition and other Imperial forces to warrant their own codices and I will enjoy that fact as well as mix and match with other Imperial books because they are all battle brothers and can act as one force anyway, the individual paying attention is nice and makes each army feel unique though. My one wish is not to have all these forces slammed back into one codex that is the Inquisition but that Chaos is treated the same way and some of their forces who deserve individual attention, get the same treatment.

 Envihon wrote:
Did I mention we have soul blaze now?

Soul Blaze?! NOOO!!!!!

Welcome to the ranks of the Thousand Sons, now that you have mastered our ultimate power, you must join us... or die.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Envihon wrote:
Did I mention we have soul blaze now?

Soul Blaze?! NOOO!!!!!

Welcome to the ranks of the Thousand Sons, now that you have mastered our ultimate power, you must join us... or die.

NEVER! Ours is a sanctified soul blaze that burns Chaos to their very core! Back vile daemon!

Now in-players doing blood ravens as a GK/1ksons army.


Back to topic-the reason that less people complain is that the ones who complain the hardest are powegamers about the codex being weak, but given how obviously good the codex is (power level wise), most of them find it hard to excuse complaints.

They don't have a single "glaring error" unit that is just way too good for the price like the eldar WS, but everything in the codex is at the very least solid, if not outright powerful.

Not the most versatile codex out there, but he gets the job done, and honestly-there is not any more INTO the gray knights fluff-wise than what is in the codex. the only way the codex could improve is if they found a way to keep the named characters without making the book silly, and if the had-they would have kept them in the book.

 Envihon wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Because removing options completely is better than just balancing them properly! Great logic!

Sigh. More strawman fallacy I see.

Not at all what I said, but hey, qq all you want. The codex is better off one than previously, as a concept. It's now actually GK, not coteaz and friends.

Really? Because as a concept, a product that Games Workshop wants me to purchase at $50 USD, it fails. It has much less content and deleted the capabilities of playing my army in a reasonable fashion. And no, the hand wave of "Unbound" means you've already failed any sort of reason or logic.

Sorry, you can have all Inquisition, Assassins, and Grey Knights in one book and still offer all three as individual items. Then that's the best of both worlds for all players. Not reducing options, deleting stuff, and then charging triple the price to get it all back.

Now, to play devil's advocate, ask a Chaos Marines player if they like all the different Chaos and Traitor forces mashed together in one force that gives the flavor of each but doesn't explore either with much depth. If Chaos players were satisfied with this, why do they want separate books for each Chaos god or a book that explores and gives better rules to Legions like the Night Lords and Alpha Legion who work fundamentally different from their Chaos counterparts?

I see this as the same thing, the Sisters and Grey Knights may be apart of the Inquisition but are fundamentally different from the Inquisition and other Imperial forces to warrant their own codices and I will enjoy that fact as well as mix and match with other Imperial books because they are all battle brothers and can act as one force anyway, the individual paying attention is nice and makes each army feel unique though. My one wish is not to have all these forces slammed back into one codex that is the Inquisition but that Chaos is treated the same way and some of their forces who deserve individual attention, get the same treatment.

CSM player here, and although the individual flavour and rules could use some work, there's absolutely nothing wrong with them being in the same book. I could see some people maybe wanting codex: death guard etc but that's never going to happen, plus it's less of a money grab this way and allows me more flexibility. It's certainly preferable to the alternative of well, having nothing but one faction to choose from.

Having multiple factions in the one codex is proven to work well, look at this years SM book.

Chaos could work in one book - 3.5 was horribly, horribly flawed, but gave some legion feel. Unfortunately the same cannot be true of GK+Inq+assassins. Too disparate. Too forced together

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Envihon wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Because removing options completely is better than just balancing them properly! Great logic!

Sigh. More strawman fallacy I see.

Not at all what I said, but hey, qq all you want. The codex is better off one than previously, as a concept. It's now actually GK, not coteaz and friends.

Really? Because as a concept, a product that Games Workshop wants me to purchase at $50 USD, it fails. It has much less content and deleted the capabilities of playing my army in a reasonable fashion. And no, the hand wave of "Unbound" means you've already failed any sort of reason or logic.

Sorry, you can have all Inquisition, Assassins, and Grey Knights in one book and still offer all three as individual items. Then that's the best of both worlds for all players. Not reducing options, deleting stuff, and then charging triple the price to get it all back.

Now, to play devil's advocate, ask a Chaos Marines player if they like all the different Chaos and Traitor forces mashed together in one force that gives the flavor of each but doesn't explore either with much depth. If Chaos players were satisfied with this, why do they want separate books for each Chaos god or a book that explores and gives better rules to Legions like the Night Lords and Alpha Legion who work fundamentally different from their Chaos counterparts?

I see this as the same thing, the Sisters and Grey Knights may be apart of the Inquisition but are fundamentally different from the Inquisition and other Imperial forces to warrant their own codices and I will enjoy that fact as well as mix and match with other Imperial books because they are all battle brothers and can act as one force anyway, the individual paying attention is nice and makes each army feel unique though. My one wish is not to have all these forces slammed back into one codex that is the Inquisition but that Chaos is treated the same way and some of their forces who deserve individual attention, get the same treatment.

CSM player here, and although the individual flavour and rules could use some work, there's absolutely nothing wrong with them being in the same book. I could see some people maybe wanting codex: death guard etc but that's never going to happen, plus it's less of a money grab this way and allows me more flexibility. It's certainly preferable to the alternative of well, having nothing but one faction to choose from.

Having multiple factions in the one codex is proven to work well, look at this years SM book.

But those are all the SM Chapters that follow the Codex Astartes and get their own Chapter Tactics to give the nuances to the different Chapters but the Chapters that highly deviate from it like the Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Dark Angels (Technically could throw the Grey Knights in there as well), all have their own codices with their own set of unique rules set to that Chapter. Are there CSM that operate roughly the same way? Yes there are but there are others like the Iron Warriors and the Alpha Legion that deviate from this "Chaotic catch-all" that would deserve their own codex. I would also love to see a Codices or even just a supplement devoted to the Four Chaos Gods that would cover both CSM and Daemons.

I can't tell, is anyone here actually claiming that it is a good thing that what was once in one book, is now in three and thus a person who actually enjoyed playing with and using elements from all three (GK/Inq/Assassins) has to now pay $100 for three books to regain what they once had in one (now out of date) book?

Is anyone actually saying this particular point is unreasonable, as in folks shouldn't complain about it?

Super Newb wrote:
I can't tell, is anyone here actually claiming that it is a good thing that what was once in one book, is now in three and thus a person who actually enjoyed playing with and using elements from all three (GK/Inq/Assassins) has to now pay $100 for three books to regain what they once had in one (now out of date) book?

Is anyone actually saying this particular point is unreasonable, as in folks shouldn't complain about it?

Well...yes I also have not spent one cent on the book yet, though I will be getting the GK Codex next month.
This is from a Grey Knight Player not an Inquisition Player. Who occasional added in an Assassin.
To me this is a good book.

 Anpu42 wrote:
To me this is a good book.

Not money-wise. Half the options are gone and it costs more than before.

Super Newb wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
To me this is a good book.

Not money-wise. Half the options are gone and it costs more than before.

It is a better put together book for me.
The Book:
>I don't have to hunt back and forth to find things.
>Every Unit is on one easy to read page .
>I don't have to flip though pages of units that are not Grey Knight Units.
The Army itself
> It is competitive without Henchman Spam.
>There are lots of options if you want for Playing Grey Knight.
>Grey Knight Terminators are worth the price you pay.
For Inquisition Players
>Yes you lost your book...no wait you still have YOUR Inquisition Codex not cluttered with Grey Knights for those who did not play them at all.
>Yes you have to pay a lot to get copies of all of the Caudexes and Data Sheets. I don't have a Apple Device so I cant use them legally anyways.

So I feel it is a better book for Grey Knights, not the Inquisition.

Thats definitely a bonus. The old codex layouts were confusing, especially if you weren't familiar with a new book yet.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Thats definitely a bonus. The old codex layouts were confusing, especially if you weren't familiar with a new book yet.

I was also looking at my Blood Angels Codex and it told me to reference a page for a weapon and then that page referenced me to a different page.

In regards to the book as a whole.

Conceptually *cough* it is a worse book actually, we are being charged more for even less fluff, Modrak? Gone. Thawn? Gone. Stuff added to replace it? Nada, zip, zilch, nothing.

From a Table perspective, it's worse; less units less rules, higher price.

If you argue this is a GOOD codex compared to what we had, which was the same but even more! Then would you kindly give me your money, because for some reason you are laboring under the idea giving away money is a good idea.

Besides... there was that leak of the entire codex on Dakka...

 Anpu42 wrote:

Super Newb wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
To me this is a good book.

Not money-wise. Half the options are gone and it costs more than before.

It is a better put together book for me.

NOT MONEY-WISE THOUGH. There are less options than before and it costs more now. Less options for more money. On this singular point you cannot, no matter how much you strangely try to, you cannot make a real argument against this. It is factually less options for factually more money. That's a straight up fact. No need to even respond to this, we all know it is a straight up fact.

It is also a straight up fact that to keep the options one had the 5th edition book, they must now buy three books, for triple the price of that 5th edition book. This too cannot be argued against. This too is a fact. This too is something you do not need to respond to because it is a blindingly obvious fact that cannot be argued against.

But hey, I'm not the boss around here, so if you want to be absurd and claim you are a fan of less options for more money, or around the same options for a lot more money (triple), then be my guest.

Quickjager wrote:
In regards to the book as a whole.

Conceptually *cough* it is a worse book actually, we are being charged more for even less fluff, Modrak? Gone. Thawn? Gone. Stuff added to replace it? Nada, zip, zilch, nothing.

I am not saying the book is better off with the loss of Characters and without new stuff. I am saying it is still a good Codex.

From a Table perspective, it's worse; less units less rules, higher price.

I thought people wanted less rules.

If you argue this is a GOOD codex compared to what we had, which was the same but even more!

Yes I [and others] think it is a Good and Balanced Codex, both Internally and Externally. We have two units that are not up there with the rest and those are only on the edge of being "not-so-good" because of their price.
This is what we wanted right?

And yes it is a better GREY KNIGHTS CODEX than DEAMON HUNTERS was at being a Grey Knights Codex.

Quickjager wrote:
In regards to the book as a whole.

Conceptually *cough* it is a worse book actually, we are being charged more for even less fluff, Modrak? Gone. Thawn? Gone. Stuff added to replace it? Nada, zip, zilch, nothing.

From a Table perspective, it's worse; less units less rules, higher price.

If you argue this is a GOOD codex compared to what we had, which was the same but even more! Then would you kindly give me your money, because for some reason you are laboring under the idea giving away money is a good idea.

Besides... there was that leak of the entire codex on Dakka...

Egads! Someone who has not drunk the Kool-Aid. Praise jeebus, the FSM and the Emperor.

Super Newb wrote:
Egads! Someone who has not drunk the Kool-Aid. Praise jeebus, the FSM and the Emperor.

Drunk the Kool-Aid?
I drank the Kool-Aid because the new Codex lets me take my old 2250 army and make it 2,000 points with improved ability?
If so give me another glass.

I think the point that the "its horrible" camp fail to get is that we do not claim at any point that its better that there is less content, but that the existing content is higher quality, and the end result of "less but better" is superior to "more but lousy"

 TheKbob wrote:
It could be that many simply just said "No, thanks." to the release. I've seen an uptick if GK armies on swap groups. Many of the personal gaming groups of just friends and acquaintances simply just shelved them or didn't care.

There's something that could be said that hatred and frustration expressions still show a keen interest in the subject. Complete apathy means people are looking elsewhere. The GK book got gutted and killed two of the popular army play styles. I'm hoping many folks were sensible enough to simply say no to such a blatant disregard to the customer.

Yeah it didn't seem to fly off the shelves like other books, I believe it may have a lot to do with the common theme in any relationship with GW, there is passive compliance, neutral hatred, outrage, and silent vacating. The people that leave the hobby generally just ghost. Out of the grey knight players I know only a few keep trying to make them work which seems to boil down to spam warp charge and dread knights (despite being just as squishy as before) while the rest just shelved them.

 Mechanical Crow wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
It could be that many simply just said "No, thanks." to the release. I've seen an uptick if GK armies on swap groups. Many of the personal gaming groups of just friends and acquaintances simply just shelved them or didn't care.

There's something that could be said that hatred and frustration expressions still show a keen interest in the subject. Complete apathy means people are looking elsewhere. The GK book got gutted and killed two of the popular army play styles. I'm hoping many folks were sensible enough to simply say no to such a blatant disregard to the customer.

Yeah it didn't seem to fly off the shelves like other books, I believe it may have a lot to do with the common theme in any relationship with GW, there is passive compliance, neutral hatred, outrage, and silent vacating. The people that leave the hobby generally just ghost. Out of the grey knight players I know only a few keep trying to make them work which seems to boil down to spam warp charge and dread knights (despite being just as squishy as before) while the rest just shelved them.

I could also be that there are just not a lot of Grey Knight Players or we were still recovering the Space Wolf Release.

 BoomWolf wrote:
I think the point that the "its horrible" camp fail to get is that we do not claim at any point that its better that there is less content, but that the existing content is higher quality, and the end result of "less but better" is superior to "more but lousy"

1) I am not saying it's horrible for gameplay. I am saying it is a poor value in real-world dollars. Which is unarguable - compare the cost relative to the content versus the 5th edition book.
2) Your fellow dakkaite Apnu seemed to be doing a contortionist act in order to not admit the book is less of a value than the previous one.
3) "More but lousy"? Please expand on this stunning statement! What was lousy before exactly? So lousy that it needed to be expunged from the book?
4) "Less but better"? So when the next codex is just Draigo and nothing else, an even better version of Draigo than before, you will rejoice. Because who cares if less options, if what is left is better than it was? Lol. Talk about a shoddy, completely fabricated (false) dichotomy. "less but better" versus "more but lousy" my buttocks.

I find calling dreadknights squishy amusing.

The are T6 with 4W in termi armor. it does not get much tougher than that.


EDIT: answering whatever is relevant

1-apperantly it is arguable, as multiple people argue with you. as I already said more=/=better. if I can have two mecdonadls for 5$ or one good burger (same size as a single mcdonald) for 7$, I'd go for the good one.

2-what someone else is or isn't doing has no connection to me, nor to facts. also this statement is an ad-hominem fallacy anyway, do not use fallacies-it only makes oyu look bad.

3-Psyblot was that lousy. is was a dreadful mechanic and pointless, and could NOT be balanced, it would always boil down to a simple mathematical qustion of when to take it, making it a math quiz, not a decision.
The assassins were that lousy. not only they were not any good, they had no buisness being in that codex. they do not work for the GK. AFAIK they do not even work WITH the GK all that often, given the latter's "we do not exist" behavior and the difficulty getting rid of an assassin after he is used.
The inqusition was that lousy. they are their own organisation, parts of it do not even work WITH the gray knights, let alone have an "always as one" setup (you could not get a non-coteaz inqusitior without getting knights even as allies)

4-Now a strawman combined with a slippery slope fallacies. you are good at making up arguments that appear intelligent to a fool, yet not in having actual content to your points.

 Mechanical Crow wrote:
Yeah it didn't seem to fly off the shelves like other books, I believe it may have a lot to do with the common theme in any relationship with GW, there is passive compliance, neutral hatred, outrage, and silent vacating. The people that leave the hobby generally just ghost. Out of the grey knight players I know only a few keep trying to make them work which seems to boil down to spam warp charge and dread knights (despite being just as squishy as before) while the rest just shelved them.

I have not played a 7th edition game with GK / Inquisition yet and I do not have those books yet. Or the Assassins one which I'd also need to approximate some of my old lists. And I am not in any rush to buy them. Why? Not because I can't afford it, I most certainly can. Because I think it is absurd that I need to pay triple what I paid before to get around the same options I had before.

I'll tell you this, when I do get around to playing GK / Inquisition again I am *strongly* considering just going off what's in my noggin (as I already know the changes for all of the units I would field) rather than buy GW's overpriced nonsense. This is the first time I'm even entertaining this idea.

Quickjager wrote:
In regards to the book as a whole.

Conceptually *cough* it is a worse book actually, we are being charged more for even less fluff, Modrak? Gone. Thawn? Gone. Stuff added to replace it? Nada, zip, zilch, nothing.

From a Table perspective, it's worse; less units less rules, higher price.

If you argue this is a GOOD codex compared to what we had, which was the same but even more! Then would you kindly give me your money, because for some reason you are laboring under the idea giving away money is a good idea.

Besides... there was that leak of the entire codex on Dakka...

Actually, it expands the fluff quite a bit, detailing the 8 Brotherhoods and their purpose as well as the other aspects of the Chapter itself. Mordrak is still mentioned but it is true, he doesn't get a full page like he used to and Thawn got little in the old codex. So it expanded on other areas and other characters of the codex while removing two.

Functionally, the codex has gotten better and I have gotten a streamlined Codex that I have always wanted without the clutter of the last Codex trying to muscle the Inquisition in. When the prevailing army became Henchman, I was wondering what the point of having a GK codex actually was so when GW did this, I was happy about it. To me, the made actual GK units useful instead of just having Henchman be the only cost effective list. And a lot more people have taken notice to the point that I know a lot of people in my local group are buying the codex to get them as allies because of how viable they are. The new codex has helped me, not hurt me and my games have been pretty awesome with the new rules and mechanics. I think the GK are going to come back in big way.

I feel bad for those who did mix the two armies, but really, those are few and far between. From my perspective you used the 5th edition codex in one of two ways: To play GK with actual GK units despite the over-costed units or you used GK codex to play the Inquisition with Henchman even though the title of the codex was Grey Knights...so when the split happened with the original e-book release of the Inquisition codex, I didn't here many of either party complaining. And really that is the reason why GW split it, how would you feel that the players marginalized most of the Codex to play a small portion of that codex so what do they do, they make it so that it is its own codex. Why are you mad about that? It would seem a simple cause and effect issue here. Instead of buying the full codex for GK to get your Inquisitorial army, you just pay for the e-book and don't have to buy the GK book. Not only that but the Inquisition book has fluff pertaining to just the Inquisition with it's specific characters and nuances.

I just don't understand how people don't see how we got here from people using the Henchman spam to that influenced the separation of the Codices. Not to mention the tactics are fundamentally different tactics between the two Codices with the Inquisition being almost a specialized AM and the GK being the Deep Strike and Psychic specialists of the Imperium. Many would agree that the SoB are better off when not slammed together with the Inquisition as the Witch Hunters so why would you get on the GK being separate? Not only that but the Inquisition feels like the Inquisition now (Especially the way the old allies matrix used to work out since the GK weren't Battle Brothers with anyone, it allowed every Imperial force to take them, like it should be since the Inquisition is the overarching force while the SoB and the GK more specialized.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, quick addendum, the Nemesis Strike Force was the best thing to happen to the GK. Not only does it allow you to take only 1 troop but it highlights the fact that these guys are suppose to be Deep Striking. Teleportation is their biggest asset and the codex is highly geared to this playstyle which only hinders one unit: Purifiers but I have been hearing a lot of good solutions to this so yeah, as a player who loves this mechanic, it is nice to have the codex reward that with a detachment that was geared towards my playstyle.

 BoomWolf wrote:
I think the point that the "its horrible" camp fail to get is that we do not claim at any point that its better that there is less content, but that the existing content is higher quality, and the end result of "less but better" is superior to "more but lousy"

Those are not the only two options. There is also "more but better" too. When being asked to pay more for a replacement product, expecting this should be a given for any rational consumer.

Super Newb wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
I think the point that the "its horrible" camp fail to get is that we do not claim at any point that its better that there is less content, but that the existing content is higher quality, and the end result of "less but better" is superior to "more but lousy"

1) I am not saying it's horrible for gameplay. I am saying it is a poor value in real-world dollars. Which is unarguable - compared the cost relative to the content versus the 5th edition book.
2) Your fellow dakkaite Anpu seemed to be doing a contortionist act in order to not admit the book is less of a value than the previous one.
3) "More but lousy"? Please expand on this stunning statement! What was lousy before exactly? So lousy that it needed to be expunged from the book?
4) "Less but better"? So when the next codex is just Draigo and nothing else, an even better version of Draigo than before, you will rejoice. Because who cares if less options, if what is left is better than it was? Lol. Talk about a shoddy, completely fabricated false dichotomy. "less but better" versus "more but lousy" my buttocks.

I have not been dancing around it. I don't consider it a factor for me. It is also a moot point for me because I cant spend the $100 as I dont have an Apple device so my only choice is to find it on PDF. So it is not an issue for me.
I am also supposed to hate it when it does everything I wanted it to do even though stuff was taken out of it.

Cash Wise: It should have been a $40 book, and I am planning on paying $42 though Amazon Prime.
Content of the Book: I would have loved some new units, the idea of Centurions armed with Psilencers and Psycannons. I did not get it, so there is money saved. Jet Bikes would also have cool, more money saved.
So after my $42 investment I may pick up some more Grey Knight Terminators and Power Armored Grey Knight I am done. So to ME it is a good investment.
My Space Wolves are going to run me another $500 minimum to get what I want and they added more stuff, I was done with them, but now I need a Flyer, at least 3 more Dreads, Logan Claws and more Thunderwolves.
Witch has turn out to be a better investment for me?

Yes, "more but better" is an option, and so is "less but worse", neither are what we have in our hands here.

Is it OPTIMAL? no. nobody even claims that. is it DECENT? yes, and that's the point we are making.
Its ok. its pretty good even, could be better, could be a hell lot worse.

An improvement over the older codex. enough of an improvement? that's is a whole other question, but the "anti" camp claim that it is worse, when it is in fact a step up. small, but up.

Now, is it worth shelling out your money for a whole new codex? not necessarily if you are just a gamer and does not care much for the books themselves, but lets not deliud ourselves, nearly all of us are using downloaded codices even when we own original ones. especially for armies we do not play.

For a new GK player is much preferable to the old codex. to the veteran? mech, you are not in a rush, and a copule of notes could make up the difference between the books-and that is true for EVERY re-release, of every game of similar nature, not alot changes from edition to edition, its usually mostly just fine tuning-and thats for the best. do you really want a massive change to your army every new codex, especially now that the cycle has been stepped up to over triple to old speed?

I'd actually say with confidence that this codex is the codex I wanted/hoped the 5th edition codex was going to be. Inquisition crap cut out(and that stuff was crap) and just an update to the dated rules.

I've just had to wait 2 editions and a codex to get it.