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Talys wrote:

 EVIL INC wrote:
Youve never played a game n your dining room without caring who wins or loses so long as you enjoy spending time with your buddies while you snack and drink beer (or in my case soda)? You know where you can stop mid game to go on a pizza run or stop and watch a movie and come back and just pick up where you left off because there was no pressure on time? Where if someone thinks they can do something and moves their model they are allowed to move it back since they were confused? Where you can have a game master set up the table according to a custom scenerio they designed and want to run the others through and the others are happy for the challenge? This is the sort of game 40k was originally designed for. To me, this is a "beer and prezels" game. If I got my terminology wrong, I'm sorry.

Yeah, exactly. My basement is set up for gaming, with a 6x4, two 4x4's and a pool table that can double as a gffame surface. I have a couple of couches and a big screen tv. Lots of pop and snacks, 50 cent honor system. We argue more about which show or football fame to put on the tv than whether GOI constitutes movement. And if someone is really a dick, I just don't have them back.

Eactly, this is exactly the game 40k was originally designed for. More so than most others. It wasnt till it was taken out of that "type" and shoehorned in with the competative games that we started to see problems.
Why was this done? I think because of the great storyline and mythos. I think it might be an idea to follow in the footsteps of games like DUST and have different rule systems designed for the 2 different types of games. Would get rid of a lot of the issues we have.

It brings the game to a screeching halt. (See what I did there?)

 EVIL INC wrote:
Eactly, this is exactly the game 40k was originally designed for. More so than most others.

What about 40k makes it better suited for basement gaming then other games?

Not veryone plays in the basement. But again, you are confusing he current edition and the ultra competetive atmosphere with rogue trader and the atmosphere that surrounded it. I suspect that this is not an accident.

So Games Workshop started supporting and running 40K Tournaments, but we weren't meant to confuse that with their lack of desire for it to be a competitive game?

 EVIL INC wrote:
Not veryone plays in the basement. But again, you are confusing he current edition and the ultra competetive atmosphere with rogue trader and the atmosphere that surrounded it. I suspect that this is not an accident.

Then explain what I'm apparently confusing. What I'm gathering is that you're saying 40k is the better (or at least very good) game for casual, friendly atmospheres. I'm questioning why you think that. Its irrelevant what edition I'm confusing unless you're trying to make a point about a specific edition. I also understand most everyone is speaking about 40k as it currently states. Again, if you wish to discuss a specific edition of 40k, please make that clear, as this thread was started around Unbound which is a construct of 7th.

If you're speaking about the game as it right now, then my question to you remains the same as it is above; what about 40k makes it a better game for casual, laid back, 'beer and pretzels' gaming?

 Blacksails wrote:

 EVIL INC wrote:
Eactly, this is exactly the game 40k was originally designed for. More so than most others.

What about 40k makes it better suited for basement gaming then other games?

Just like RPG nights or Sundays, we start when people are out of work and go to 1-3am. That is tough in most stores. If you have a large model count, or want to leave large models where you play, a friend's house works better.

You cannot take 25 models and expect to amuse yourself for 7+ hours.

On a different note, 40k is an ideal game for folks who love to collect and model miniatures. Almost everyone I play with adds at least 10 models to their collection a month (some of us do wayyyyy more than that). It isn't really an ideal game for people who aren't really into the hobby aspects, I think, because for some of us, the coolest part is the new stuff, and it can't come fast enough.

But none of that is specific to 40K, that's just stuff that happens with any wargame.

The game as it is now is different from the game as it was then. Try to get your hands on a copy of Rogue Trader and a copy of the current edition and compare the two.

To give you a helpful hint, look at the role of the TO at a tourney. What is the usual min ou can have and it be a decent tourney? 8 players maybe?
Now look at the role of the GM. and compare the two.
TO- set up tables to be perfectly fair for both players according to the pre=set scenerio as it is written in the book. Arbitrate rules so players dont kill each other, tally points, prizes ect and so forth. Compare it to the GM, coming up with a scenerio that may or may not be fair, set up the board custom, operate "NPC" units, councel players and watch the individual every step of the game making decisions of things that may or may not be in the rulebook, possibly even making changes. ect ect. You will see that with that alone, RT is far more designed for that atmosphere than many other games. Look at chess for example, it is designed to be played competetively. true it CAN be played in that atmosphere, but it is not designed with that in mind.

Ok, now answer the question please.

Requiring a GM, ie a third person to play a two player game is a very poor argument for a game being suited to casual and easy play.

Unbound is great because I can run an all-Canoptek list. Scarabs and Charnel Scarabs as rough "troops" analogues. Spyders and Sentry Pylons for heavy support, wraiths and Acanthrites as fast attack and a Tomb Stalker for my warlord.

There's some lists like that in bound already, such as Deathwing or Eldar Wraith lists. But the beauty of unbinding is you can design your own.

Will you get someone who takes twelve Heldrakes? Sure, and good luck to him finding someone who actually wants to play against that.

But you already get those guys. The guy who takes three annihilation barges, two units of destroyer-led wraiths and fills the rest with five man warrior squads to unlock lots of night scythes. Does that guy care that his army is a generic Internet power list? Does he care that the five man warrior squads make no thematic sense whatsoever? That his army has no personality? Nope. He just carries on playing to win not through tactics, but pre game optimisation and shuffles in some barge lords because the Internet says those are the hot new thing.

Unbinding, if anything, makes a guy who tries to take that kind of thing to a game more obvious. Easier to avoid entirely. Not everyone can spot an power list for every faction at a glance, but they can certainly spot a Riptide horde.

The game as it is now is different from the game as it was then. Try to get your hands on a copy of Rogue Trader and a copy of the current edition and compare the two.

To give you a helpful hint, look at the role of the TO at a tourney. What is the usual min ou can have and it be a decent tourney? 8 players maybe?
Now look at the role of the GM. and compare the two.
TO- set up tables to be perfectly fair for both players according to the pre=set scenerio as it is written in the book. Arbitrate rules so players dont kill each other, tally points, prizes ect and so forth. Compare it to the GM, coming up with a scenerio that may or may not be fair, set up the board custom, operate "NPC" units, councel players and watch the individual every step of the game making decisions of things that may or may not be in the rulebook, possibly even making changes. ect ect. You will see that with that alone, RT is far more designed for that atmosphere than many other games. Look at chess for example, it is designed to be played competetively. true it CAN be played in that atmosphere, but it is not designed with that in mind.

And all of that has what to do with my question?

I'll ask it again; what about 40k in particular makes it a better game for casual, laid back, narrative oriented gaming?

 Blacksails wrote:
I'll ask it again; what about 40k in particular makes it a better game for casual, laid back, narrative oriented gaming?

Good luck getting an answer to that question. I've been asking it for a quite a while now, and I've never seen anyone give an answer that makes any sense.

There is a difference between a game specifically designed with that in mind and one without that in mind. You are fully aware of this. One can be played anywhere so CAN be played in that environment. The other is usually not effectively played outside of itspecial considerations.

 EVIL INC wrote:
There is a difference between a game specifically designed with that in mind and one without that in mind. You are fully aware of this. One can be played anywhere so CAN be played in that environment. The other is usually not effectively played outside of itspecial considerations.

Which also fails to answer my question. If you don't understand the question, please say so and I'll happily try to clarify.

Again; what in particular about 40k makes it a better game for casual, laid back, narrative gaming? You made that claim in an earlier post, and I'm curious as to your reasoning why.

Peregrine wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
I'll ask it again; what about 40k in particular makes it a better game for casual, laid back, narrative oriented gaming?

Good luck getting an answer to that question. I've been asking it for a quite a while now, and I've never seen anyone give an answer that makes any sense.

EVIL INC wrote:There is a difference between a game specifically designed with that in mind and one without that in mind. You are fully aware of this. One can be played anywhere so CAN be played in that environment. The other is usually not effectively played outside of itspecial considerations.

The wait continues...

I think that any good gaming club should be able to support your pure narrative players along side your ultra competitive players as well. Be that club in someone's basement or at the GW store, local gaming store. The environment in which one plays in will have a bearing towards the scale of Fluff vs. Competition.

If your club is very cut-throat win at all costs. New players introduced into the club are going to be at a severe disadvantage until they learn what the local meta game is. Even still, then those new 40k players will have to design lists and then build the models to become competitive in those said cut-throat leagues.

The flip side to the cut-throat club is the fluffy league where it's all about themed armies. Once again a new player to that club scene is made to feel that his army is inadequate because it might not be considered fluffy enough.So the new member of the club has to change his army composition once again in order to fit in.

But I personally see nothing wrong with both styles of play. The more exposed to unbound the more I think that it does have its uses. In the end, we all want to have a pool of players that we can call upon to have our 40k games with. A small select few of players are hard core competitors. A equal amount of players pure fluff players. Any good gaming club worth its salt, is going to be able to balance between the 2 extremes.

It is now my opinion, that Unbound games are a great tool to feel out new players that want to join your club/league games. When you remove all restrictions of unit choices you really get to see the personality of the person that you are going to play against. Be that as someone who comes prepared with printed army lists bound by a sense of the FOC of their codex of choice. Or TFG who has proxied all his units, does not have a handwritten/printed/typed army list, does not carry the codexes he needs to run the units he is fielding, uses loaded dice, etc, etc, etc.

In the absence of established law and order, some folks are going to set a new form of law and order.Some others will act as complete and utter barbarians/outlaws/pirates. Most of us are balanced somewhere in between the two extremes.

Am I missing some words or something? Do other people understand what I'm asking? Am I missing something in EVIL's posts that answers my question?

 Blacksails wrote:
Am I missing some words or something? Do other people understand what I'm asking? Am I missing something in EVIL's posts that answers my question?

I can only speak for myself, but I can't see how what you're asking could be any clearer.

Pretending to not understand does not change it. That is the answer. if you decide that it is not obvious enough, that is your problem to deal with because I can copy and paste it till the cows come home and it will still be be true every time.

 EVIL INC wrote:
Pretending to not understand does not change it. That is the answer. if you decide that it is not obvious enough, that is your problem to deal with because I can copy and paste it till the cows come home and it will still be be true every time.

You haven't answered my question. You might have answered a question you created in your head, but you haven't answered the question I put forward in any logical manner.

I'll even try and explain why your responses don't qualify as an answer to my question. In none of your posts have you explained a particular aspect of the rules of 40k that create a positive gaming experience geared towards casual, laid back, and narrative gaming, above and beyond the offerings of other games.

If you don't want to answer my question, fine, so be it. But if you're going to quote me and try to respond, at least have the courtesy to actually attempt an answer.

 Blacksails wrote:
Am I missing some words or something? Do other people understand what I'm asking? Am I missing something in EVIL's posts that answers my question?

No, non-sequitur responses are par for the course there.

 EVIL INC wrote:
That is the answer.

But it isn't an answer at all. The question is not "can 40k be played in a 'beer and pretzels' environment", it's "what makes 40k better than other games for this kind of gaming". Your answer, just like every other non-answer I've received, completely fails to address the "why" part. You claim that 40k is somehow magically superior, but you don't give a single reason WHY.

SYKOJAK wrote:

Spoiler:

I think that any good gaming club should be able to support your pure narrative players along side your ultra competitive players as well. Be that club in someone's basement or at the GW store, local gaming store. The environment in which one plays in will have a bearing towards the scale of Fluff vs. Competition.

If your club is very cut-throat win at all costs. New players introduced into the club are going to be at a severe disadvantage until they learn what the local meta game is. Even still, then those new 40k players will have to design lists and then build the models to become competitive in those said cut-throat leagues.

The flip side to the cut-throat club is the fluffy league where it's all about themed armies. Once again a new player to that club scene is made to feel that his army is inadequate because it might not be considered fluffy enough.So the new member of the club has to change his army composition once again in order to fit in.

But I personally see nothing wrong with both styles of play. The more exposed to unbound the more I think that it does have its uses. In the end, we all want to have a pool of players that we can call upon to have our 40k games with. A small select few of players are hard core competitors. A equal amount of players pure fluff players. Any good gaming club worth its salt, is going to be able to balance between the 2 extremes.

It is now my opinion, that Unbound games are a great tool to feel out new players that want to join your club/league games. When you remove all restrictions of unit choices you really get to see the personality of the person that you are going to play against. Be that as someone who comes prepared with printed army lists bound by a sense of the FOC of their codex of choice. Or TFG who has proxied all his units, does not have a overwritten/printed/typed army list, does not carry the codexes he needs to run the units he is fielding, uses loaded dice, etc, etc, etc.

In the absence of established law and order, some folks are going to set a new form of law and order.Some others will act as complete and utter barbarians/outlaws/pirates. Most of us are balanced somewhere in between the two extremes.

Speaking as someone who has an element of responsibility in managing a gaming club, when you have a mix of "casual" players and "competitive" players, it's a pain in the ass to achieve balance. I've seen too many people get stomped too much too early in their playing careers and silently stop attending.

Unbound won't do anything to avoid this, and while I agree that assessing a new player before "allowing" them to join would be lovely, an open club doesn't work like that, a gaming group maybe, but not a club. It's also a nice conceit that there's plenty of people queuing up to join too, in reality for many players, getting more than a handful of potential opponents on a regular basis (in the UK at least) is tough. It is all well and good to say "if they're not playing your game, move on to the next one" but in many cases, the decision is "play this guy or don't play at all"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

 EVIL INC wrote:
That is the answer.

But it isn't an answer at all. The question is not "can 40k be played in a 'beer and pretzels' environment", it's "what makes 40k better than other games for this kind of gaming". Your answer, just like every other non-answer I've received, completely fails to address the "why" part. You claim that 40k is somehow magically superior, but you don't give a single reason WHY.

Perhaps I could help with an illustrative answer?

I consider Magic to be a solid beer and pretzel game because the rules are relatively easy to learn in a broad sense, the cards themselves contain most of the information you need to play them, their is little bookkeeping other than life totals and occasional tokens, a deck is an easily transportable size and it essentially all you need, you do not need a huge space to play in, and it doesn't take hours of preparation to get a card ready for play.

Please let us not tangent off into the whys and wherefores of if my ideas are correct or not, but let's see if anyone can put together a comparable answer about 40K.

See, peregrine, thats where he gets you. I did not say it was better in that environment. I said it was designed specifically for that environment. He uses the wording change the meaning of what i said to support a circular logic.

Any game can be played in that environment. Even baseball (although putting out a window from the inside might make the missus a lil upset)

Many games are designed to be pick up and carry about, played anywhere. Take chess or tic tac toe for example. they can be played hardcore tourney are they can be played in the basement. The point I made was that Rogure trader was simply not designed to be played in tourneys but specifially for the "basement". he is changing the words about intentionally to try to make it appear as though i am trying to say that it was better than others games to distract you from the actual point.
Of course, to avoid any reporting, I could be wrong, he might actually believe that is what i am saying in which case he is simply mistaken.

 Azreal13 wrote:

Perhaps I could help with an illustrative answer?

NO.

I consider Magic to be a solid beer and pretzel game because the rules are relatively easy to learn in a broad sense, the cards themselves contain most of the information you need to play them, their is little bookkeeping other than life totals and occasional tokens, a deck is an easily transportable size and it essentially all you need, you do not need a huge space to play in, and it doesn't take hours of preparation to get a card ready for play.

Please let us not tangent off into the whys and wherefores of if my ideas are correct or not, but let's see if anyone can put together a comparable answer about 40K.

Exactly this. I don't know anything about Magic, but that's the type of response/reasoning I'm looking for.

 Blacksails wrote:
I'll ask it again; what about 40k in particular makes it a better game for casual, laid back, narrative oriented gaming?

How about it is a broken game with no balance therefore it is best when between a few a few friends who understand what the issue are and can overlook them.

Something you wont find at your LFGS unless you are real lucky, I know I am not one of those and they is why I play in my Dinning Room with like minded people while munching on Cheetos and drinking Red's Apple Ale. [Something else you cant do at the LFGS]

EVIL INC wrote:Eactly, this is exactly the game 40k was originally designed for. More so than most others.

EVIL INC wrote:See, peregrine, thats where he gets you. I did not say it was better in that environment. I said it was designed specifically for that environment. He uses the wording change the meaning of what i said to support a circular logic.

Tell me again how I changed your wording.

Oh, emphasis mine, yadda yadda.

Now, you can back out of this if you clarify an earlier question I had. Are you in that instance referring to 40k as it is now, or the game it once was? If the former, my question and point stands. If the latter, carry on. Though, my question is a fair question anyway and you can feel free to answer it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
I'll ask it again; what about 40k in particular makes it a better game for casual, laid back, narrative oriented gaming?

How about it is a broken game with no balance therefore it is best when between a few a few friends who understand what the issue are and can overlook them.

Something you wont find at your LFGS unless you are real lucky, I know I am not one of those and they is why I play in my Dinning Room with like minded people while munching on Cheetos and drinking Red's Apple Ale. [Something else you cant do at the LFGS]

Sure, but how does that make 40k better at being a casual, laid back, narrative game? The same you just said is true of quite literally anything.

I have seen some licensed FLGS, so it is a possibility. Rare, but possible. And awesome.

Scroll up and you will be able to re-read the answer you are looking for specifically laid out as you asked.

OP- Unbound is silly, unless you prefer to play silly games.