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What was it that made Grey Hunters so good back in 5th then? Because I remember them being one of the better troops in the game, but CA isn't that great...

Back in the days of 4th edition I liked Grey Hunters well enough, but I liked Grey Slayers in my 13th Company army more.

I feel like 90% of this applies only to SM players. We humble IG players just wish that we had a bit of reason to dig the ogryns and rough riders out from the bottom of the drawer.

Pfft...put that kind of logic away, sir!

......of course sometimes I feel like 90% of 40K players are Space Marine players.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
It was the double special weapons + the ability to give a random mook a plasma pistol, effectively making them the most plaspammy army in the game.

You can still do that, it just costs more.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
It was the double special weapons + the ability to give a random mook a plasma pistol, effectively making them the most plaspammy army in the game.

You can still do that, it just costs more.

That's the thing though; they were better than everyone else because they were 1 PPM cheaper, had cheaper specials AND had the BP/CCW combo. Now they're not cheaper anymore, so they're just better, as opposed to completely superior in almost every way.

 Talys wrote:

3.Terminators really do suck.

 ThePrimordial wrote:
.
-Tau have the most dakka of any army, are the easiest and most boring to play, have a better MC than any Imperium army with the Riptide, great elite troops with the Suits, and the best vehicles.

Tau are the worst at CC so the should have the best dakka.

How are they the easiest? Surely SM are since they have the same statlines and they Ignore the most rules.

How are they boring? I'd argue that GKs are since they only ever alpha strike. I'm assuming that you are referring to gun lines (which are pretty ineffective in 7th) and why single Tau out? AM do gunlines just as well as Tau do.

They have a better MC since IoM armies shouldn't have MCs due to their style (and the Dreadknight is far better than people make them out to be).

I'll counter the MC argument by saying that SMs have better CC, better vehicles, better allies etc.

Great elites; well yes, 2/3 are great. Sternguard are great too.

Tau vehicles are average:
Devilfish cost too much.
Piranhas are Bs 3.
Hammerheads do not have enough fire power.
Skyrays have limited anti-air.
Flyers are just terrible.

Well, there are a few things to consider:

- A lot of people seem to think that units should only ever be buffed - never nerfed. i.e. if few units are made OP, then the rest of the game should escalate around those units, rather than just nerfing those specific units.

- There seems to be a line of thinking amongst some marine players that nothing should be tougher than marines. So, if a Xeno unit has T5, terminators should be T5 with FNP 4+. If a Xeno unit has a 2+ save, Terminators should have a 1+ save (or some variant thereof).

- Similar to the above, some people seem to think that units have to be broken to be competitive. So, if a marine unit isn't as good as a Wraith or WS, it's terrible and needs to be buffed. This goes back to my first point, whereby some people seem to think that no unit should ever be nerfed - we should just endlessly buff units to bring them up to the highest possible level.

- Marine armies share a lot of units. Let's say a DE player and an Eldar player both have problems with their Elite units and decide to make threads on the subject. Well, whichever units they fixate on, their threads will be entirely different. One might be about Incubi, the other about Howling Banshees.

In contrast, since all marine armies have terminators, any of them could start a thread about terminators sucking (well, probably not SWs or GKs, but you get the idea). So, in addition to there being a lot of marine players, they also have similar (even identical) units to complain about.

- GW hates infantry. With a passion. I don't know if they're just too focussed on selling big kits, but in recent editions most infantry have been left behind in favour of Knights, MCs of various flavours, and some fliers/skimmers. Whilst most armies have suffered from this, I can see many Marine players being more annoyed that the heart of their army is being made redundant by crap rule design.

SGTPozy wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:
.
-Tau have the most dakka of any army, are the easiest and most boring to play, have a better MC than any Imperium army with the Riptide, great elite troops with the Suits, and the best vehicles.

Tau are the worst at CC so the should have the best dakka.

How are they the easiest? Surely SM are since they have the same statlines and they Ignore the most rules.

How are they boring? I'd argue that GKs are since they only ever alpha strike. I'm assuming that you are referring to gun lines (which are pretty ineffective in 7th) and why single Tau out? AM do gunlines just as well as Tau do.

They have a better MC since IoM armies shouldn't have MCs due to their style (and the Dreadknight is far better than people make them out to be).

I'll counter the MC argument by saying that SMs have better CC, better vehicles, better allies etc.

Great elites; well yes, 2/3 are great. Sternguard are great too.

Tau vehicles are average:
Devilfish cost too much.
Piranhas are Bs 3.
Hammerheads do not have enough fire power.
Skyrays have limited anti-air.
Flyers are just terrible.

But you said terminators are good. It's really hard to live that down. Now you want us to believe that the Dreadknight is somewhow some kind of death machine, despite all evidence to the contrary. And your very trollish attitude to your posts.

Martel732 wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:
.
-Tau have the most dakka of any army, are the easiest and most boring to play, have a better MC than any Imperium army with the Riptide, great elite troops with the Suits, and the best vehicles.

Tau are the worst at CC so the should have the best dakka.

How are they the easiest? Surely SM are since they have the same statlines and they Ignore the most rules.

How are they boring? I'd argue that GKs are since they only ever alpha strike. I'm assuming that you are referring to gun lines (which are pretty ineffective in 7th) and why single Tau out? AM do gunlines just as well as Tau do.

They have a better MC since IoM armies shouldn't have MCs due to their style (and the Dreadknight is far better than people make them out to be).

I'll counter the MC argument by saying that SMs have better CC, better vehicles, better allies etc.

Great elites; well yes, 2/3 are great. Sternguard are great too.

Tau vehicles are average:
Devilfish cost too much.
Piranhas are Bs 3.
Hammerheads do not have enough fire power.
Skyrays have limited anti-air.
Flyers are just terrible.

But you said terminators are good. It's really hard to live that down. Now you want us to believe that the Dreadknight is somewhow some kind of death machine, despite all evidence to the contrary. And your very trollish attitude to your posts.

What has this got to do with what I said? So because I believe that Terminators are good then I am not allowed to say anything else? Why can't I give my own opinion?

Terminators are good, and Dreadknights are very powerful (check many threads about them, Riptides and Wraithknights)

By calling me a troll you are simply posting spam; your post added nothing other than to personally attack me.

I could say the same about you; all you ever do is complain abut Tau and about how you are incapable of using drop pods (which is the easiest and most point-and-click tactic in the game).

I'm not sure that this thread, given how it started, ever really had a chance.

In the future, broad brush generalizations and starting off so negative are things which are best avoided.