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epronovost wrote:
@Ashiraya

In my opinion, your description would make them so heavy they would be incapable of fighting in a building with their armor on without crumbling the floor, so tall they would not fit in a bunker or a ship design for human (or Tau). Much of their strength would be wasted potential (you don't need to be so strong to be good). Your power armors are inconceivable to me. If they can resist a few melta blast designed to blow heavy tanks or plasma weapons who have a similar fonction, how can we mold their plates and build them in the first place? Of what are made tanks like Leman Russ (heavy tanks) if they can't resist to weapons that a almost humen size Marine can and why would they not be made of a similar material? Since Sororitas power armors are very similar in terms of offered protection (if not identical if you read their codex) then how do you kill one of them? I would also note that elite strongman makes very poor fighter because of their lack of flexibility, disbalanced proportion, poor coordination and stiffness. You should look at a MMA heavy weigth to have an more realistic impression of a very strong person who can fight very well. Your running speed would make them about has fast than their rhinos transport (and their armor more resistent then it's hull) according to the same fluff. They even run faster than land raiders. Whats he point of them. Your calculation of 9 feets seems to be in direct contradiction with their codex who states an average of 7 feets (of course a 9 feet marine would be imaginable, but would be like a 7 foot tall men today). If bolters are so powerfull, what can a melta gun, plasma gun, autocanon, assault canon, heavy flamer, missile launcher, multilaser, avengers shuriken catapults, gauss flayer, tesla carabine, pulse rifle and carabine and so many others who are supposed to be even more powerful can do? All of this seems to make no sense to me, contradict our least partisan information and put Space Marines head and shoulders over everybody else which in my opinion is both wrong and rather stupid when we look at what the other races and soldiers they fight against.

I have a few problems with this:

1.) Ashiraya said that it offers SOME protection against Melta and Plasma, just as Spartan armor (Halo) provides SOME protection against fuel rod cannons. A direct hit is gonna absolutely destroy a Space Marine, as evidenced in numerous novels, while a near miss might do only minor damage.
2.) Space Marines have been quoted to run far faster than Ashiraya said, and Rhinos would still be necessary as they can maintain a stable, fast speed, navigate rough terrain without damage, and provide a good amount of protection against small arms fire and weaker large arms fire.
3.) The real power from Bolters comes from the fact that they detonate. They're .75 calbre rounds (enough to tear a human limb from limb as it is), but they are also designed to explode INSIDE of the target. This would provide both a.) utter massacre of lightly armoured human-sized combatanats (rebels, Tau, etc.) and b.) absolutely shock 'n awe. I mean, just imagine having you and four dozen other rebels surrounding a Space Marine squad on all sides, and then suddenly all of your buddies just start exploding from the inside as Bolter fire penetrates their flak armour and detonates inside of their chests. Utterly terrifying.

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epronovost wrote:
@Ashiraya

Well if you want a discussion you will have to accept that people will disagree with you and present their reason for that. That's what I just did and that's what you did with my own post. I don't think you will ever see Space Marines has creatures that can be killed by a «normal» human while I do think so. The point was to make Space Marines consistent, logic and reasonnable in the setting in a very different way then yours which I think fail to be logical and consistent with the rest of what we know. Of course you are can completly go with your version, that's the beauty of fiction.

I actually made a thread for that, it's here http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/630685.page
@Grey Templar

Well our tank plating is made of steel. They explode rather easily when shot by anti-tank weapons like rocket launcher or specilised tank ammunition. Missiles and 120mm tank round have the bad habit of destroying tanks rather easily they were made for that after all. Steel can be molded a a temperature of around 400 degree celcius and bend rather easily. Let see what a material like ceramite would be like if it was has tough than Ashiraya would imagine it.

Now let say I shoot a weapon that project a ball of fire of 10 000 000 degree celcius that will burn you for several seconds. That's what a plasma weapon does if we must believe what we can read abou it. If you survive to it, that means that the plating of the armour not only resisted to such incredible heat, but managed to remain relatively cool so that you didn't suffered burns.

A temperature so high is capable of melting your atoms and make new elements. There would be nothing left of you. If such a material is possible, how would you produce it? Steel plates are heated and molted into shapes, such a material would be impossible to forge even in the heart of a star.

If it can also withstand canon shells that can pulverise concrete and steal and still protect it's wearer, it's also incredibly hard so you can't just hammer it in the shape you want. I can't imagine a factorie capable of producing any of these armours let alone repair them.

Has for the gun issue, melta gun, plasma gun, autocanon, assault canon, heavy flamer, missile launcher, multilaser, avengers shuriken catapults, gauss flayer, tesla carbine, pulse rifle and carbine are all more powerfull than Space Marines bolters according to the fluff. How strong would they need to be if a single bolt can pulverise a human size creature and blow a tank and why would Space Marines use them?

Bolts can't blow up a tank unless you get a lucky shot through the muzzel of the tank rifle and also get lucky enough for there to be a round on the other end for the Bolt to hit. However, Bolts can cause damage to a tank, knock out some surface weapons like Storm Bolters, etc. Otherwise I agree with what you said about anti-tank weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

epronovost wrote:

So here are my questions to you:

PS: those are your own words for bolters: «Bolters are obscenely large explosive rounds that reduce men to mist with single shots». If a bolt can do that, what can the more powerfull weapons I have cited earlier can do?

How would you build a power armour if it's has hard has you can?

How can Space Marines fight against kroots or Tau on their ships if they are 9 foot tall?

How can they fight in buildings design for human?

How do you explain the instences where Space Marines were killed by normal human or xenos?

What de you need to reliably and efficently kill them?

1.) Bolts are obscenely large (.75 caliber, to be precise), larger than .50 caliber weapons (which can actually make a person explode if a direct torso shot is achieved), which, by itself, would be enough to utterly pulverize any infantry. However, this original stopping power is compounded by the fact that Bolts are EXPLOSIVES hence the term "explosive Bolt". These Bolts are designed to penetrate a target, then detonate inside of them.

2.) Space Marine size is largely determined to how large they were before being turned into Space Marines. This is why you will have 2.5 Meter Marines in one book, then 4 meter marines IN THE SAME BOOK. However, even if you don't believe that, Tau and humans would build ships and structures several feet taller than themselves. For instance, a one-story building, ceiling-to-floor, is ten feet tall; at least four feet taller than your average human being.

3.) Propaganda, and/or luck combined with superior numbers and/or firepower

4.) You need to hit them with a wound to severe for their blood to clot, so probably a wound both quite long and quite deep. Otherwise, a head shot with a sufficiently powerful weapon will do (though low caliber firearms will be incapable of penetrating the skull), or crippling both hearts. You could also just keep shooting them until they die

epronovost wrote:
So here are my questions to you:

PS: those are your own words for bolters: «Bolters are obscenely large explosive rounds that reduce men to mist with single shots». If a bolt can do that, what can the more powerfull weapons I have cited earlier can do?

Plasma guns turn men into goo.

Melta guns turn men into goo.

Lascannons turn men into goo.

Replace 'goo' with 'ashes' after taste. I mean, what'd you expect?

How would you build a power armour if it's has hard has you can?

Because industrial cutting lasers and similar are serious things? Cutting lasers are displayed as similar in lethality to lascannons in both HH and RT (although in practice they're inefficient beyond melee range and incredibly unwieldy even there), and those are the man-portable ones.

How can Space Marines fight against kroots or Tau on their ships if they are 9 foot tall? How can they fight in buildings design for human?

They crouch to get through some doorways if needed? They were not exactly designed with Tau in mind anyway.

I am still of the opinion that you're not supposed to send in your giant supersoldiers into cramped spaces, whether they are 7' or 9', as they are going to have lots of trouble maneuvring and fitting through doorways and hatches either way with that huge-ass armour of theirs. Besides, don't you have Scions if you absolutely have to dig out that Tau out of his rabbit-hole?

How do you explain the instences where Space Marines were killed by normal human or xenos?

How do you explain the instances where a Space Marine runs at 180 times the speed of sound? We can trade citations all day and it won't get us anywhere.

What de you need to reliably and efficently kill them?

The whole point of investing fethloads of resources and time into making them as tough as possible and equipping them with as tough armour as possible is to prevent the enemy from reliably and efficiently killing them. They are a giant dagger in the face of the 'everyone dies to X all the same ' mentality. Yes, they die to bigger guns all the same, but you have to catch them exposed first. I am not sure of where you'd place the breakpoint, but dig out a Plasma Blastgun if it's important.

@Ashiraya

You fail to answer my question about boltgun and so did dusara217. If you say that boltgun reduce people into mist, we can expect more powerful weapon to do the same. Where lies the difference? How much more powerful is the pulse rifle for exemple? What can it do better than the boltgun?

Industrial cutting laser and lascanon generate heat far bellow that of a plasma weapon or a melta gun. Do we agree that plasma gun and melta gun ignore the power armour protection and a single shot on the chest of one of these weapon will kill with certainty a Space Marine if he stand in their threat range (300 meters or so)? I also completly forgot about hot-shot lasgun. How do these work against astartes plates? Dusara217 noted me that you said they offer a measure of protection. Sorry to have misunderstood you on that point, but can you provide more detail please?

Space Marines are called Marines because they were design to fight deep space battle on ennemy ships which are cramped space by definition. The roof of a first floor building is usually 8 or 9 feet tall with a door frames of 7 feets. We can expect most corridor to be about has big with service tunels around hangar bays much much larger and some much smaller. A 7 feet tall marine would be a bit tight on such a ship, but still fonctionnal. A 9 foot marine like yours could find himself crouched all the time and incapable of fighting in close combat efficiently unless he uses a spear or a short sword and even then it's not great. He would also be much slower.

I don't think there were any explicit mention of a Space Marine runnig at more than 100 000 kilometer per hour. A shady description by Aron Demsky Bowden using a literary process called narrative projection were a omniscient narrator describe an event to make you feel like those who witness it isn't usable to make that kind of projection. Your quote of page 3 uses the exact same literary process. It's a workhorse of war drama else the description are too clinic and get boring. I could write you back your paragraph in a more clinical term if you want to see the difference between the two process if you want.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
I am of the opinion that marines are immortal.

There has never been a marine who died of natural causes, we've had well over ten thousand years to see if they do.

So really, until we see a marine die of old age they're immortal for all practical purposes.

I agree with this. If a Space Marine had died of age, it would have been such a major event so it's weird it has never been mentioned.

Or, maybe it's so common that it isn't worth mentioning. I mean, it isn't like 40K fluff is predisposed to moments of introspection and self-realization.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
I am of the opinion that marines are immortal.

There has never been a marine who died of natural causes, we've had well over ten thousand years to see if they do.

So really, until we see a marine die of old age they're immortal for all practical purposes.

I agree with this. If a Space Marine had died of age, it would have been such a major event so it's weird it has never been mentioned.

Or, maybe it's so common that it isn't worth mentioning. I mean, it isn't like 40K fluff is predisposed to moments of introspection and self-realization.

The fact that marines are often referred to as being immortal says that it doesn't happen. And if it were common, we would actually hear about it somewhere. "Brother Captain Joe led the 3rd company for many centuries and vanquished many foes, he was a true hero. He died on M38.567.148 peacefully in his sleep."

epronovost wrote:
@Ashiraya

You fail to answer my question about boltgun and so did dusara217. If you say that boltgun reduce people into mist, we can expect more powerful weapon to do the same. Where lies the difference? How much more powerful is the pulse rifle for exemple? What can it do better than the boltgun?

Actually I did not, but you failed to read what I stated, and then re-stated, and then re-re-stated regarding Bolt Guns. In order to make you understand how powerful a .75 caliber bullet is, I refer you to these videos that show humans being hit by .50 cal weaponry:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyjU7WKvO9c
http://i.imgur.com/GDRyh4Z.gif?z=12

Now imagine that a %150 power, with explosive rounds. That's a bolt, it penetrates the target (which is why they aim for center of mass), then explode with the power of a 32MM Grenade. The target would get torn to pieces simply from the initial impact (which would shatter every bone in the body and likely rip off a few limbs), then has a small grenade detonated inside of them - hence the "bloody mist" (though bloody chunks of meat would be more accurate).

Industrial cutting laser and lascanon generate heat far bellow that of a plasma weapon or a melta gun. Do we agree that plasma gun and melta gun ignore the power armour protection and a single shot on the chest of one of these weapon will kill with certainty a Space Marine if he stand in their threat range (300 meters or so)? I also completly forgot about hot-shot lasgun. How do these work against astartes plates? Dusara217 noted me that you said they offer a measure of protection. Sorry to have misunderstood you on that point, but can you provide more detail please?

Sure Power Armour is designed to resist extreme heat and extreme cold, so as to allow Astartes to fight in all kinds of environments during the Great Crusade. Modern Power Armour (logically) has retained this function and mostly just changed the tertiary systems and the shape of the Power Armour. Here's a quote from Fulgrim

He felt the heat on his armour, but it could do him no harm, though scads of burning fuel dribbled from the plates of his legs and arms. The roaring of the wind filled his sense as the gunship spun, cold air roaring through the stricken Stormbird and howling in his ears.

This is Solomon Demeter wearing standard MK III Power Armour somewhere near the 150th year of the Great Crusade or so, might have been MK IV, but I kinda doubt it.

Space Marines are called Marines because they were design to fight deep space battle on ennemy ships which are cramped space by definition. The roof of a first floor building is usually 8 or 9 feet tall with a door frames of 7 feets. We can expect most corridor to be about has big with service tunels around hangar bays much much larger and some much smaller. A 7 feet tall marine would be a bit tight on such a ship, but still fonctionnal. A 9 foot marine like yours could find himself crouched all the time and incapable of fighting in close combat efficiently unless he uses a spear or a short sword and even then it's not great. He would also be much slower.

Eh, not necessarily. You may note that modern United States Marine fight on the air, land, and sea (Primarily land). This, at one point, was their motto. Marines are just semi-elite soldiers capable of being mass produced. Although, early Marines were originally part of the country's navy and were basically just a ship's garrison of sorts. Also, they're called Marines because Space Marines sounds cool, or at least it did in the '80s, and 40k follows the Rule of Cool.

I don't think there were any explicit mention of a Space Marine runnig at more than 100 000 kilometer per hour. A shady description by Aron Demsky Bowden using a literary process called narrative projection were a omniscient narrator describe an event to make you feel like those who witness it isn't usable to make that kind of projection. Your quote of page 3 uses the exact same literary process. It's a workhorse of war drama else the description are too clinic and get boring. I could write you back your paragraph in a more clinical term if you want to see the difference between the two process if you want.

There really isn't, and Space Marine speed is honestly a matter largely composed of conjecture. However, what we do have are examples of Space Marines moving so fast that they either a.) were just blurs in the air or b.) seemed to teleport. By these examples, we can conclude that Astartes can move at least 45 MPH, but probably closer to 55 or 60. I'm 'murican, so I really don't feel like translating that into KPH, sorry. Gimme a minute to go quote hunting so I can provide specific examples.

Grey Templar wrote:The fact that marines are often referred to as being immortal says that it doesn't happen.

Citation please.

Ok, I really don't want to waste the next two hours hunting for a quote on Space Marine speed, but I just found an entire thread of people agreeing with what I said about Space Marines, and I'm lazy, so here's the URL so you can be convinced of SM speed: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/437912.page

They refer to humans as "mortals"(as shown earlier in this thread), which says that marines are therefore Immortal.

Loken says that marines are immortal explicitly.

To be fair, they really are referred to as immortal a lot of the time.

However... it's worth saying that the vast majority of the time, it's said by people who really don't know any better. A marine that lives for 2, 300 years. Compared to a guardsmen, whose lifespan will then be measured in weeks. Or a civilian who'll be lucky to make it to 30.

Honestly, Marines are fighting too much to suffer from old age anyways, and are functionally immortal since they never live long enough to find out one way or the other. IMHO, it is both possible and probable that the Emperor would want his superwarriors to be biologically immortal, but hey, that's just me thinking about the fact that there will constantly be galactic-scale threats (Orks, Chaos, etc.) that will continue to be super-powered, insanely difficult to kill foes that you will need great experience as well as great equipment and physiology to trump.

 Grey Templar wrote:

Loken says that marines are immortal explicitly.

No. No he doesn't. Read that part again.

Citation please.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

Loken says that marines are immortal explicitly.

No. No he doesn't. Read that part again.

Citation please.

Here you go

The melancholy of the immortal, or the paradox of an ageless being caught in the flux of constantly changing times - struggling flies in the clotting amber of history.
She realised she was getting ahead of herself and asked, 'Does that bother you, not getting old? Is there some part of you that wants to?'
'Why would I want to get old?' asked Loken...
'... I am powerful now, strong. Why would I want to change that?'
'I don't know. I thought that if you aged maybe you'd be able to, you know, retire one day. Once the Crusade is over I mean.'
'Over?'

@dusara217

I agree with your vision of the bolter, but I still have trouble thinking about the capacity of even better personnal weapons like pluse rifle or shuriken catapult or necron gauss flayer. It pushes the logic consistency in their field if you know what I mean.

Most people on the thread link you gave me seems to think that Space Marine run slower than a olympic sprinter. Which is even slower than what I would have given them. I would have given them about 30 miles per hour (45 km/h) if you prefer on sprint. At least it makes sense considering the top speed of the Rhino is 70 km/h according to BL.

epronovost wrote:
@dusara217

I agree with your vision of the bolter, but I still have trouble thinking about the capacity of even better personnal weapons like pluse rifle or shuriken catapult or necron gauss flayer. It pushes the logic consistency in their field if you know what I mean.

Most people on the thread link you gave me seems to think that Space Marine run slower than a olympic sprinter. Which is even slower than what I would have given them. I would have given them about 30 miles per hour (45 km/h) if you prefer on sprint. At least it makes sense considering the top speed of the Rhino is 70 km/h according to BL.

As far as weapons like Pulse Rifles and Shuriken guns and all that, those are mostly energy weapons, and are thus superior to your standard firearm. Now, Pulse Rifles are basically a hybrid laser-plasma weapon, so clearly superior in regards to there being absolutely no means of shielding somebody from a direct hit. However, Pulse Rifles and the like would have absolutely zero splash damage, and thus wouldn't make good line weapons, but amazing precision sniper rifles, since you don't have to worry about things like bullet drop, wind speed, etc. and also have a weapon that is immune to any kind of armour but energy shields and conversion fields and the like. As far as Shuriken guns, those are just knife throwers that shoot at a rediculously fast speed. Shuriken Catapults would (most likely) be ideal for armour penetration (high speed + really sharp = AP) and would also be great for dealing with blobs of infantry and the like (high rate of fire + really sharp = 80 shurikens in two seconds that go through the target and hit the guy behind him). Each of these weapons and the ones similar to them are superior to Bolts in different respects, but inferior in others. For instance, what's going to be scarier, your best buddy suddenly exploding and covering you in his blood and chunks of bone and meat, or his face suddenly having a hole in it the size of a fist? Obviously the exploding buddy is going to have more a shock 'n awe effect, and stun you for a minute as the horror sinks in. On the same note, what's gonna be scarier, your commander suddenly being covered in tiny holes that punch straight through him and he dies, or him suddenly having his head explode? Obviously the exploding head is going to have a greater psychological effect. What's going to have a greater psychological effect, your best buddy suddenly exploding and his hand landing on your rifle, or your best buddy suddenly disintegrating? Obviously the exploding buddy. Now, Bolt pistols are ideal for dealing with single targets, due to low rate of fire and high firepower, but Bolters would be great for anti-infantry, as anybody hit is basically going to have is organs turned to jelly if he's armoured, or his body turn to a bloody, chunky mist as he explodes. Add to that rapid firing 30-round magazines, and you have the ultimate terror and anti-personnel weapon, that also does a hefty amount of damage to armour. Shurikens would probably be more ideal, however, for dealing with blobs, as they can fire eighty shurikens in the space a single second. These shurikens hit hard, and they are REALLY, REALLY sharp.

Now, let's compare the Bolt to the Melta weapon. Melta guns fire concentrated blasts of microwave radiation, so the effect would actually be quite similar to that of a Bolt (exploding people), if you want proof, google "puppy in the microwave". Meltas would make fantastic anti-infantry weapons, tbh, though they wouldn't be able to deal with larger squads due to the blast being akin to a laser of microwaves.

So, you see, every weapon was designed with a specific goal in mind. Bolts are devestating to just about any organic creature that has exposed flesh to be 'sploded in. Shurikens are devastating to any lightly armoured infantry, though it has more difficulty with Power Armour or better armour. Pulse Rifles are essentially the ultimate sniper rifles. Lasguns are cheap and effective weapons to be wielded by the expendables who need to be able to do some damage. Gauss Flayers are ideal for dealing with armoured targets or single targets, though a comparatively low rate of fire leaves it wanting in the infantry department.

epronovost wrote:
@dusara217

I agree with your vision of the bolter, but I still have trouble thinking about the capacity of even better personnal weapons like pluse rifle or shuriken catapult or necron gauss flayer. It pushes the logic consistency in their field if you know what I mean.

Most people on the thread link you gave me seems to think that Space Marine run slower than a olympic sprinter. Which is even slower than what I would have given them. I would have given them about 30 miles per hour (45 km/h) if you prefer on sprint. At least it makes sense considering the top speed of the Rhino is 70 km/h according to BL.

The Shuriken Catapult isn't "better" than a bolter. Its different.

Its got a much shorter range and only slightly better chances against heavy armor given its pseudo-rending. The bolter is a general purpose weapon, the Shuriken Catapult is a very short range assault weapon.

The Pulse Rifle is, from a statline perspective, better given its better range and killing power. But that doesn't necessarily mean its better. It is probably way more expensive to manufacture due to its complicated technology.

That is why the Imperium uses the lasgun as its primary armament. Its cheap and has reasonable killing power. When you have to arm trillions and trillions of soldiers cost becomes a major concern. Sure, you could arm all your soldiers with plasma guns. But you'd only be able to arm a few billion of them. And trillions of guys with lasguns>a few billion with plasma guns.

Here's my thoughts on the matter.

The Space Marines are a "Fantasy Knights in SPAAAACE" thing. They don't really work if you actually try to look at them from any sort of realistic (with consideration for the setting) perspective.

We're talking about a force of a million, in a galaxy with around three hundred billion star systems. They not only have to defend Imperial worlds, but attack Xeno's worlds, defend space lanes, attack Xenos non-planetary targets, etc, with conflict on a galactic scale on multiple internal and external fronts a constant.

Given these facts, a million marines is far too few, by several orders of magnitude. That number is questionable even for a single well defended and industrially developed planet, there just aren't enough marines to cover all the ground they'd need to be in.

The classic response to this is that's what the IG are for, and that the SM's are just there for "surgical strikes", but time and again, the SM's are portrayed as undertaking massive campaigns without such support and engaging in frontal attacks, sieges, armored engagements, etc. Even then, not every war or battle can be won by surgical strike, nor are such even always possible.

Chapters in particular are even worse. A single bad warp jump could destroy an entire chapter. Losing half a dozen Thunderhawks to planetary defenses (which, when an opposing world may have tens of thousands of anti-aircraft installations and thousands of fighter craft, certainly does not seem at all impossible) would cripple a chapter's capabilities in a single stroke. Having a landing zone bracketed by enemy artillery and losing a company on the ground, which should by no means be impossible, would stop many Space Marine attacks in minutes. Replacement of Space Marines is very time intensive, and any sort of major casualties should force a chapter out of battle for years if not decades.

On top of that, they're all independent sovereign groups effectively, who fight where and when they want under largely nobody else's orders, and have been recorded as outright refusing certain calls for aid. They're availability would be extremely susoect. Not only that, but many go off pursuing their own agendas, many have turned reneged (half the original numbers, at least 5% of the post-heresy Chapters in full have gone renegade, and innumerable random companies, squads, and individuals have done so as well). If they're spending any time at their Fortress Monastery (which they're often portrayed as doing quite a bit for long periods of time), they're not out fighting. Travel time is huge, and that alone additionally limits how many places they can be.

What's more, Space Marine intelligence operations are largely limited to Scout observation (which might give you tactical and some meager operational level intel), and very rarely Librarian psyker-stuff, and sometimes interrogations. Almost no SigInt, no recon aircraft, little/no strategic analysis, etc everything operates on effectively a tactical level. They really don't have much of an intelligence apparatus. They wouldn't know *where* to land those surgical strikes most of the time, getting to grips with their foe would largely require a 3rd party telling them where to go (and in fact, this is often what happens, an Inquisitor shows up and says "strike here!"), but the vast majority of the time no such thing occurs, especially when they're off doing their own thing.

When there's literally *billions* of Imperial Guard regiments, equating to *hundreds of millions* of guardsmen per Space Marines, to say nothing of the numbers of the Imperial Navy or local PDF groups, as well as other forces like those of the Mechanicus and the like, it makes the military value of the Astartes equal to about a few hours worth of Imperial Guard recruitment. The numbers difference we're talking about here is like if you took *every* *single* combatant of the second world war from every nation, Soldier, Sailor, Partisan, etc. Multiplied them all by ten, that's about how many Guardsmen alone you'd have to each *single* Space Marine given GW's numbers. You'd be talking several hundred thousand tanks, IFV's, bombers, fighters, around attack aircraft, and artillery each, for every single Space Marine, and that's not even getting into the numbers of the Imperium's enemies.

This is just an issue of the setting. 40k is a Fantasy setting in space that is really a "swords and sorcery" scale story slapped into a setting billions of times larger without any appreciation for the scale involved.

For the Space Marines to make sense, they should either have all been destroyed very quickly at the dawn of the Imperium, or their numbers should be ten thousand fold what they are now.

Would somebody please give this man a cookie? Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts with us Vaktathi.

epronovost wrote:
@Ashiraya You fail to answer my question about boltgun and so did dusara217. If you say that boltgun reduce people into mist, we can expect more powerful weapon to do the same. Where lies the difference? How much more powerful is the pulse rifle for exemple? What can it do better than the boltgun?

Honestly? I don't think it is. I think it is better than a human bolter. But then, making superbuff guys in superbuff armour so that each can wield heavier weapons with ease and then give them guns any guy could use doesn't make sense, so I buy into the notion that Marines get bigger bolters in both weapon size and bullet size. And plasma guns, and meltas and so on and so forth. You don't put an LMG as the turret of an Abrams. But hey, that's just, like, my opinion, man.

epronovost wrote:
Industrial cutting laser and lascanon generate heat far bellow that of a plasma weapon or a melta gun.

Except, you know, Lascannons are incredibly consistently portrayed as having a bigger punch than plasmas. Except plasma weapons apparently being hot enough to instantly ignite the entire atmosphere, believing the commonly given number and the approximate size of a plasma shot. Yes, plasma guns are described as being as hot as the heart of a star, which means tens of millions of degrees celsius. Useful weapon, the plasma pistol, capable of wiping out all life on a world with one round.

Who needs Exterminatus?

Oh, and Meltas rely a lot on being at point-blank range.

epronovost wrote:
Do we agree that plasma gun and melta gun ignore the power armour protection

No. I am not buying the 'hot as the heart of a star' BS. We can agree it is one of the more effective weapons available, however.

epronovost wrote:
single shot on the chest of one of these weapon will kill with certainty a Space Marine

Hell no. I know it's grimdark hehehehe sweats nervously to have the OP supertough supersoldiers be oneshotted by ubiquitous weapons, but it's not something I agree will 'reliably' happen.

epronovost wrote:
if he stand in their threat range (300 meters or so)?

Meltaguns, 300 meter range? What?

epronovost wrote:
I also completly forgot about hot-shot lasgun. How do these work against astartes plates? Dusara217 noted me that you said they offer a measure of protection. Sorry to have misunderstood you on that point, but can you provide more detail please?

Hellguns? More effective than lasguns at penetrating PA, so certainly a superior choice, but in the end it has the same problem - lack of punch. Not that impressive against tougher targets, though soft targets in good armour is a great use for it.

epronovost wrote:
Space Marines are called Marines because they were design to fight deep space battle on ennemy ships which are cramped space by definition.

They're called Marines because it's a cool name. They are designed to be post-human supersoldiers that can intimidate and overwhelm the horrifying aliens of a hostile galaxy in a great crusade, and that is what they did.

epronovost wrote:
The roof of a first floor building is usually 8 or 9 feet tall with a door frames of 7 feets.

Source? I have not seen any numbers on Imperial architecture, but it certainly seems monumental and massive in design pretty much everywhere outside of underhives.

epronovost wrote:
I don't think there were any explicit mention of a Space Marine runnig at more than 100 000 kilometer per hour. A shady description by Aron Demsky Bowden using a literary process called narrative projection were a omniscient narrator describe an event to make you feel like those who witness it isn't usable to make that kind of projection. Your quote of page 3 uses the exact same literary process. It's a workhorse of war drama else the description are too clinic and get boring. I could write you back your paragraph in a more clinical term if you want to see the difference between the two process if you want.

You may not like it, but that does not make it less canon.

Obviously, we can apply the same 'exaggeration for dramatic effect' to all races, leaving us effectively at the starting point.

Oh the magic words, hellgun! According to the Scions codex they can punch straight through ceramite.

Of debatable use if they can't inflict sufficient damage to the guy beneath.

It still has punch akin to a lasgun, even if the penetration is nice.

Also, I thought we were dismissing codices as exaggerating their own factions?

@ Vaktathi
TBH, the Space Marines really aren't that important in the grand scheme of things. They are too few to actually matter (most of the time) and usually only make a difference when shat's about to go down (like the Reign of Blood being ended by Space Marines).

As far as intelligence, they mostly rely upon orbital scans, which are likely quite accurate after 20k years or so of them being constantly worked on and becoming more advanced and precise to be the equal of Necron tech (see: DAoT), until the last 15k years, when technology stagnated (I'm estimating them coming into use at 5k AD, but It's likely earlier than that).

As far as Chapters go, they rarely operate as a Chapter, with Space Marines mostly operating as Strike Forces composed of two or three Squads, with a Demi-Company or full Company every now and then. I agree on the Thunderhawk thing (seriously, Chapters would need AT LEAST a few hundred Thunderhawks and a decent flow of replacements, which they have in my head canon).

@Ashiraya

Of course if you believe in 9 foot tall marines on average their weapon would be more powerful than human ones, but 7 foot tall marines like those describe by GW on the home page of their web site or 3rd to 5th eddition codex (I don't own the new one) would have identical weapon to SoB or other human troopers.

You are right that plasma weapon can't be that hot, but they could be hotter than the surface of the sun (10 000 degree celcius). Lightning bolts are three times hotter than that. You could theoricaly make them more 100 000 degree celcius without incenerating the air wich is about 100 times hoter than molten granit. For the 300 meters range, it was for plasma gun. Melta gun would be more like 50 meters I think.

I think Space Marines were made for deep space battle because their greatest asset is the fact they have and command their own fleet. It's their greatest logistical and strategical advantage. Most important battle in a science fiction setting like 40K would be space battle. Win space superiority and you can dictate a lot of things.

Marines comes from the the term mariner witch gave marauders and was used to described Norse invaders during the 10th century. Now it describes elite troopers who specilised in amphibious assault (just like the Norse raiders) and combined arm operation. It does fit what the Space Marines are supposed to do and it does involve a lot of space battles. For the roofs, I used the size of our buidings norms (medieval architecture is even smaller). Imperial architecture must be of human size for obvious reason and only churchs and palace would have hug ceilling. Bunkers, fortress and habitation blocks must be very small and cheaply made don't you think?

I do agree with you that the fluff is very inconcistent, prone to exageration and contradictory statement like your Brother of the Snake were 10 Space Marines kill a 1000 Dark Eldars without casualty and Gaunt Ghost were 5 Chaos Space Marines (1 being a choas champion with an autocanon and an other with a plasma gun) are killed by 10 guardsmen and a 100 low tech warriors with very few casualty on their side. Both of these two stories even have the same author so we can't even pin that difference in power level by the vision of two different author. For that, I would propose you to declare all books and short stories irrelevent to the discussion and stick to purely descriptive fluff.

I would retract my first statement. Your vision of the Space Marines is logic, possbile and consistent with your idea of them has the ultimate warriors, but it does not describe well what we can read about them and has a lot of weakness in my opinion. For exemple, it contradict well established facts about them like their size, the comparative strength of their weapon, etc. But, if you elect to ignore that to respect their mythos has the ultimate warriors and place them head and shoulder over all the other armies, races and combattant, then I must admit it does it's job and remains mostly believable (I still got a hard time with how resistant, big and fast you make them, but that's just me).

I have nit picked a lot about your vision in the last two pages. Would you care to do the same with mine? I think it will stand the test better than yours, but there is only one way to find out...

@dusara217

Very well written. I like your explaination about all those weapon. I will have to modify my description of the bolter strength of page three.

epronovost wrote:
@Ashiraya Of course if you believe in 9 foot tall marines on average their weapon would be more powerful than human ones, but 7 foot tall marines like those describe by GW on the home page of their web site or 3rd to 5th eddition codex (I don't own the new one) would have identical weapon to SoB or other human troopers.

Well, BL just placed them at 8'...

Let's face it, GW will never be consistent with this.

You are right that plasma weapon can't be that hot, but they could be hotter than the surface of the sun (10 000 degree celcius). Lightning bolts are three times hotter than that. You could theoricaly make them more 100 000 degree celcius without incenerating the air wich is about 100 times hoter than molten granit. For the 300 meters range, it was for plasma gun. Melta gun would be more like 50 meters I think.

By all means, Plasma Guns are dangerous things, don't get me wrong. Especially the bigger ones. But they are not quite the I.W.I.N. buttons they are sometimes thought as.

I think Space Marines were made for deep space battle because their greatest asset is the fact they have and command their own fleet. It's their greatest logistical and strategical advantage. Most important battle in a science fiction setting like 40K would be space battle. Win space superiority and you can dictate a lot of things.

Actually, I believe they have a use that is far more grimdark when you think about it;

They fight things the Guard simply can't take on. Such as Eldar, who move too fast for the Guard to hit. (Space Marines are faster and so stand a chance of doing so.) Or Tyranids, whose Warriors are incredibly tough and incredibly numerous. Many of the horrors of the galaxy are also huge, which means that they won't be in places where large size is a problem.

Marines comes from the the term mariner witch gave marauders and was used to described Norse invaders during the 10th century. Now it describes elite troopers who specilised in amphibious assault (just like the Norse raiders) and combined arm operation. It does fit what the Space Marines are supposed to do and it does involve a lot of space battles. For the roofs, I used the size of our buidings norms (medieval architecture is even smaller). Imperial architecture must be of human size for obvious reason and only churchs and palace would have hug ceilling. Bunkers, fortress and habitation blocks must be very small and cheaply made don't you think?

When Space Marines must assault or hold an important location, it's usually an irreplaceable structure such as a relic Manufactorum, and those things are usually those things you'd expect to be massive and oversized. You don't need to dig those aliens out of the underhive because underhives are expendable. Just bomb the place.

I do agree with you that the fluff is very inconcistent, prone to exageration and contradictory statement like your Brother of the Snake were 10 Space Marines kill a 1000 Dark Eldars without casualty and Gaunt Ghost were 5 Chaos Space Marines (1 being a choas champion with an autocanon and an other with a plasma gun) are killed by 10 guardsmen and a 100 low tech warriors with very few casualty on their side. Both of these two stories even have the same author so we can't even pin that difference in power level by the vision of two different author. For that, I would propose you to declare all books and short stories irrelevent to the discussion and stick to purely descriptive fluff.

Unfortunately, BL is by far our biggest source of fluff, and the codices and FW stuff is not consistent either (In the SM codex Telion and three dozen scouts defeat a rebel planet in under a day, and the FW listed caliber of the Leman Russ is waaaaaaaaaaaay below any art or model)

I would retract my first statement. Your vision of the Space Marines is logic, possbile and consistent with your idea of them has the ultimate warriors, but it does not describe well what we can read about them and has a lot of weakness in my opinion. For exemple, it contradict well established facts about them like their size, the comparative strength of their weapon, etc. But, if you elect to ignore that to respect their mythos has the ultimate warriors and place them head and shoulder over all the other armies, races and combattant, then I must admit it does it's job and remains mostly believable (I still got a hard time with how resistant, big and fast you make them, but that's just me).

Ah no, you misunderstand me. My intention is not to place them head and shoulders above the other races. My intention is to place them head, shoulders, torso and waist over humans. In my experience, while Space Marines outmatch mortals extremely, it's less simple in the case of aliens, traitors and similar monsters. Aspect Warriors are equal matches for Space Marines. Nobz, while something Space Marines can defeat one-on-one, are still incredibly lethal. Tyranid Lictors, Raveners, Warriors... All of them are just as, if not even more, gob-smackingly amazing in combat. Then we have Daemons. And Necrons...

No, my 40K is not one where Space Marines butcher all armies with ease. It is just one where the power scale is suitably insanely steep, with the poor humans firmly occupying the bottom, and the first ten spots above them being empty (aside from scions and the like).

To illustrate, a size comparison I've assembled from my own impression and experience of the 40K setting: (warning, massive picture)

I have nit picked a lot about your vision in the last two pages. Would you care to do the same with mine? I think it will stand the test better than yours, but there is only one way to find out...

I don't think it will be necessary. You know what I think of yours, and I know what you think of mine.

That doesn't make sense, a normal human might be under most things, but there's a reason the IG is perfectly capable of winning on their own, they shouldn't need the SM to show whenever they face anything that's not a rebellion

 Bobthehero wrote:
That doesn't make sense, a normal human might be under most things, but there's a reason the IG is perfectly capable of winning on their own, they shouldn't need the SM to show whenever they face anything that's not a rebellion

They don't. Space Marines are there for when you're facing a colossal shatstorm and may need the extra firepower.

 Bobthehero wrote:
That doesn't make sense, a normal human might be under most things, but there's a reason the IG is perfectly capable of winning on their own, they shouldn't need the SM to show whenever they face anything that's not a rebellion

You misunderstand me. There's plenty of enemies in 40K that are not either superdangerous superspacemonsters or human rebels.

Orks, for example. Orks are very dangerous but usually something the IG can take on alone.

But when those Aspect Warriors sprint through your lines faster than any human gun or eye can track them, each eviscerating half a dozen men with each pass, you're going to need something more than just human.

Ahahahahahaaaaa! I found something interesting regarding the plausibility of Astartes heights.

Some people say 9' is illogical because they couldn't fight in boarding actions, yeah? Well, you should check the latest Forge World newsletter.





If heavily armoured and augmented Ogryns can fight very effectively in boarding actions, then so can 9' Marines.

Case: closed.

@Ashiraya

It makes them only efficient on ships that were conceived with your giant Astartes in mind (or Ogryn and Primarch). Since they were used in the Horus Heresy, they might have fallen out of fashion and could still be useless or very limited against human empires that built ships for normal human, necrons, eldars corsaire ships, tau, kroots, etc.

Conjecture.

We have concrete evidence that fethhuge Ogryns are so good at boarding actions that it's considered a primary role. This wouldn't be if they only had a narrow range of available targets. Xenos existed in 30k. The Charonites predate the Heresy.