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 MWHistorian wrote:

Clockwork Iron wrote:
Idk if is just my group but something that 40k always has is this kind of camaraderie and brotherhood to it. Any time I go my my flgs, it is always this warm and jolly good feeling from all the 40k chaps. It goes beyond just being a game, it's a setting to talk about, rules and models to talk about, and the ever fun mocking of Gw's inadequacy. Whenever I played warmachine for a bit I never got that camaraderie, it was just a game, and that feeling of brotherhood was lacking.

Idk maybe im just being stupid, but 40k isn't just a game, it's a group of people enjoying their hobby together.

I have the exact opposite experience.
Every time I went for a pick up game for 40k, it was kind of tense almost. Like they looked at me like "I don't know this guy. What kind of army? Tournament practice guy? My fluffy army deserves a chance or eight Imperial Knights?" If felt more like UN negotiation where none of the countries trusted each other.
With WMH it's "What do you play? Khador? Awesome! 50 points? Right on." And we commence setting up. We have time to talk about fluff, armies, fun stuff because we're not negotiating are armies to approach some semblance of balance.
But that's for PUG's. YMMV.

Eh maybe it's just my group idk. But when I started to play warmachine I never felt welcome, people just kind of played a game with me then went off to do whatever, there wasnt any of the post battle nonsense I love about 40k. For example, I took a year and a half break from 40k and got back into it a couple months ago. When I jus showed up at a tourney I got nothing but welcoming from everyone there, and people I hadnt seen in a year were talking to me like we just saw eachother last week. Who knows lol, maybe its just the fact that I'm not a huge fan of warmachine that's causing me to see things this way.

It's not just you. I've also had some pretty horrible experiences with Warmachine and the people hocking it.

 MWHistorian wrote:

Bolded part...um....what? Snapfit? No. Try putting together a Father Lucant figure.
Also, WMH has a thriving modeling community.
Go look at NQ Magazine. It's full of conversion and scenery making articles. It's basically what White Dwarf used to be. I've fought as many "Gray Legion" armies as I have unpainted WMH ones, though I have no statistics about that.
And neither do you. (which is the point I'm trying to make) You make a lot of bold, blanket statements that can't be backed up or proven/disproven.
But seriously, go look through NQ magazine and you'll see what mean. In the last issue (I think) they had an article on how to convert a Cygnar jack into a charcater jack from one of the novels. I convert WMH's as well. The author of "Into the Storm" (a WMH novel) has his Halbrediers with Conquistador helmets on. (Because his ancestors were) He beat me with them pretty bad.
I will grant you that conversions are easier due to readily available spare parts in 40k. That is a big bonus for modelers.

Regarding the "essentially snapfit nature" -- every WMH model is meant to be assembled one way. You can't do otherwise without sculpting and heavy modifications. Every troop is composed of just a few pieces, that go together exactly one way. Every premium model just has more pieces, but is also designed to be built exactly 1 way. Yes, some models are more complex, and a small number give you a tiny amount of freedom. In comparison, almost every model which you would have many of that comes in a plastic kit from GW is meant to be customized. Tell me which WMH model can be customized in the same way a basic tactical space marine can be customized. Tell me which WMH model has articulating parts like pistons and joints that rotate and move like an Imperial Knight. Tell me which WMH model is intended to have its weapons magnetized so that they can be swapped from a close combat to a ranged weapon like a wraithknight. Tell me how many WMH models offers a range of different heads with different expressions or helmets to choose from.

Yes, if I look at a magazine, there are plenty of cool WMH things. But, when I go into any local stores, there are showcases of cool 40k things. And on 40k nights, there are actual human beings with cool works of art. On WMH nights, there are tables of... not much. I've never seen a converted Cyngar jack at a game table. EVER. In fact, I pretty much never see a converted anything, or even a very well painted anything.

There is no local community of hobby people interested in WMH in my neck of the woods. I'm not saying there isn't *anywhere*. But, it is a fact that most WMH players who play at FLGS in my area are more interested in gaming than modelling. I suspect that this is not something unique to my area, but of course I don't know that as a fact. So why don't I put it to you? What does the average WMH table look like in your local scene? How much time do the average WMH regulars spend on hobby?

Note that conversions, reposing, and alterations for WMH are not easy to do and require relatively advanced modelling skills (some level of sculpting). Also, the cost of models for WMH is quite high, especially if you're cutting them up for modelling. I don't know a single person that does that.

However: please recognize, I didn't JUST limit it to WMH. I'm talking about Malifaux, XWing, Infinity and any number of miniature-based board games. Why do people say that they like these games -- and conversely, dislike 40k?

1. Tight rules. Sometimes, low learning curve.
2. Low barrier to entry: you don't need a lot of models
3. For Xwing, no modelling at all; just play it. This is a draw for some people, a total turn off for others.
4. Doesn't need a lot of time commitment
5. More likely to have a successful PUG with a stranger

Some of the people (just some!) who love 40k really enjoy the hobby aspect of it, and spending 3 months to 3 years modelling an army before ever fielding it is no big deal. I don't know anyone who plays WMH who spends that kind of time on their army ** before even playing it **. Naturally, people who do this tend to talk a lot about the hobby. When I get into a conversation at a store, I can easily blow 2 hours talking about Liquitex mediums or W&N paintbrushes -- just as much as I can talk about the latest Eldar Codex or the AdMech, or far-flung rumors.

If you have a strong WMH, Malifaux or Infinity modelling community, you're lucky. I would love to meet more WMH hobbyists (as opposed to people who just mostly game).

 Talys wrote:


1. Tight rules. Sometimes, low learning curve.
5. More likely to have a successful PUG with a stranger

I don't think these are necessarily true. At best, they're subjective. I've heard numerous people complain about how WMH left them feeling like their opponent made "one roll on a special ability in the last turn and said 'I Win!'"

And at least with the strangers I've met looking for games, PUGs for WHM or X-wing looked like horrendous, frightening prospects.

I think the community and the game system aren't always necessarily related.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 Talys wrote:


1. Tight rules. Sometimes, low learning curve.
5. More likely to have a successful PUG with a stranger

I don't think these are necessarily true. At best, they're subjective. I've heard numerous people complain about how WMH left them feeling like their opponent made "one roll on a special ability in the last turn and said 'I Win!'"

And at least with the strangers I've met looking for games, PUGs for WHM or X-wing looked like horrendous, frightening prospects.

I think the community and the game system aren't always necessarily related.

I don't think they're necessarily true either. I'm just repeating what I hear WMH and the board game players say

Although, for sure, many board games certainly have a much lower learning curve than 40k (and WMH).

Take the bullets in the context of why I believe WMH (and other boardgame/skirmish game) players say they choose that game -- and in the context of them NOT generally saying, "I want to model build an awesome army and an awesome game board". Though, of course, there are exceptions.

I dunno, it seems weird to pick on Warmachine/Hordes for not having "customizable" models when GW appears to be getting away from that themselves with a lot of their newer plastics. Not every kit, obviously, but GW are putting out a lot of models that only go together one way, despite being offered in plastic which most people just associate with freedom and posability. Even the most expensive models, like the new Knights, don't offer a builder much in the way of customization other than what bits you can glue onto it. The legs are in a fixed pose, can't build a Knight stomping on a guy unless you're willing to take the knife to a $160 kit, and your range of movement on the other joints isn't much to work with either, resulting in every Knight looking almost exactly the same but with different paint.

I wish Warmachine models were "better", too, but I wouldn't say that GW is necessarily getting it right anymore, either. And we all know GW have the resources to make a fully posable Knight, or plastic clampack characters with more options than just a head or weapon swap, but they just don't. PP is just now getting into HIPS, so we could very well see more posable models in the future from them when they have the capacity to start producing them. What's GW's excuse? "The plebs will buy what we make?"

 Sidstyler wrote:
I dunno, it seems weird to pick on Warmachine/Hordes for not having "customizable" models when GW appears to be getting away from that themselves with a lot of their newer plastics. Not every kit, obviously, but GW are putting out a lot of models that only go together one way, despite being offered in plastic which most people just associate with freedom and posability. Even the most expensive models, like the new Knights, don't offer a builder much in the way of customization other than what bits you can glue onto it. The legs are in a fixed pose, can't build a Knight stomping on a guy unless you're willing to take the knife to a $160 kit, and your range of movement on the other joints isn't much to work with either, resulting in every Knight looking almost exactly the same but with different paint.

I wish Warmachine models were "better", too, but I wouldn't say that GW is necessarily getting it right anymore, either. And we all know GW have the resources to make a fully posable Knight, or plastic clampack characters with more options than just a head or weapon swap, but they just don't. PP is just now getting into HIPS, so we could very well see more posable models in the future from them when they have the capacity to start producing them. What's GW's excuse? "The plebs will buy what we make?"

GW hero mdoels (broadly speaking, HQs and named LoWs) are single pose, while others are configurable, because except for Rogue Trader (where you rolled for stuff), heroes have set items. Plus, it's less important, because you're only going to have 1 Dante or 1 Vulkan, so it's not like you'll have a bunch that look identical On the other hand, pretty much any model that you'd take multiples of (sold as MPP) are posable/configurable. They've actually been very consistent with this.

Although I'd love to see a knight with a posable lower torso, even as is, it's far more configurable and posable than any PP model.

HIPS isn't really a good reason to not have configurable models -- they've had resin for a long time, and lots of other companies do resin models with swappable parts. I genuinely think that it's part of the game and the culture of WMH. I mean, it's not like you can choose loadouts on your models, so why would you have configurability? It's not like you're going to have a horde of the same model, so repetitiveness is not an issue.

And really, I'm not just making this up. Go look on the P&M forum, and scroll 5 pages deep. Count the number of 40k projects versus WMH projects that people are talking about. It's no different at my local store; when I go hang out, almost all the guys talking about hobby are either historical or scale model folks or 40k -- and that was kind of my point.

I reiterate that this is not a bad thing. A lot of people just aren't interested in spending hundreds of hours on modelling projects, or they just don't have the time. My original point was to agree with a fellow who made the point that 40k is as much about people who share a common hobby as people who face off with each other as opponents.

 Talys wrote:

Regarding the "essentially snapfit nature" -- every WMH model is meant to be assembled one way. You can't do otherwise without sculpting and heavy modifications. Every troop is composed of just a few pieces, that go together exactly one way. Every premium model just has more pieces, but is also designed to be built exactly 1 way. Yes, some models are more complex, and a small number give you a tiny amount of freedom. In comparison, almost every model which you would have many of that comes in a plastic kit from GW is meant to be customized. Tell me which WMH model can be customized in the same way a basic tactical space marine can be customized. Tell me which WMH model has articulating parts like pistons and joints that rotate and move like an Imperial Knight. Tell me which WMH model is intended to have its weapons magnetized so that they can be swapped from a close combat to a ranged weapon like a wraithknight. Tell me how many WMH models offers a range of different heads with different expressions or helmets to choose from.

Extreme juggernaut comes to mind. Plastic warpwolf and other beasties is very poseable. Off the top of my head.

And fyi, regarding the magnetising models for different weapons loadouts that apparently doesn't happen, you are talking out of your arse mate - do realise the very first piece of advice a lot of players get is 'magnetise your jacks', especislly with the 3 in 1 kits pp produce, it makes a lot if sense to be able to use your jack as a juggernaut, destroyer or marauder for example. All mine are magnetised, as are those of most people I know. So to answer that, pretty much the majority of plastic jacks, a lot of beasts and possibly a lot of the multi-role infantry kits that's are coming out.

A range of different heads? Hmm, tricky, but to be four, modt units have three or four, maybe more various 'heads'. Cutthroats and Nyss immedately come to mind,steelhead halberdiers too, to an extent. Thing is, different helmets isn't a thing I get, not in a world where standard issue mass manufactured gear is a thing. Might be boring for you, but it doesn't make sense to me for everything to be s unique snowflake. I've got 140romans to paint - they all look pretty similar to me!

 Talys wrote:

Yes, if I look at a magazine, there are plenty of cool WMH things. But, when I go into any local stores, there are showcases of cool 40k things. And on 40k nights, there are actual human beings with cool works of art. On WMH nights, there are tables of... not much. I've never seen a converted Cyngar jack at a game table. EVER. In fact, I pretty much never see a converted anything, or even a very well painted anything.

Your store. Yo should come to ours. A huge section of my army is converted, and there is soe really epic scenery at our store in edinburgh.

The rules of WMH are great, very tight, little room for rules lawyers, and the factions are pretty well balanced both internally and externally. I'm just not into the aesthetics of them, at all. It feels much more "gamey" than 40k too. Most likely due to the huge amount of tokens and ring markers everywhere. That's another thing I don't like about it. In 40k the most I'll have is a 16mm dice on the base of a multi wound model to show how many wounds it has. I would say for the most part the 40k community is far more into the hobby side of things. The last WMH tournament I went to had over 20 players and there wasn't a single fully painted army in the building. For the most part, they're seen as game pieces. The terrain is typically green felt, blue felt, a hill and maybe 1 actual terrain piece. Rather than a nicely painted RoB table like the local GW has (4 of them), we played on wooden tables painted green. As tight as the ruleset is, the aesthetics, tokens everywhere and bland looking armies/tables make it really difficult to get into for me. I bought almost the entire cryx faction and ended up selling off most of it 6 months later because I just couldn't get into it like I'm into 40k (despite the lack of balance and overall poorly written ruleset).

how is w40k not full of tokens? objectives, psychic power dice, cards for psychic powers, dice for MC wounds, dice for vehicles, dice and markers for what ever stuff is buffed with invisibility.

Psychic power dice? You roll those, wouldn't call them tokens. The power cards don't need to sit on the table and interfere with the game. I don't consider a 16mm dice on the giant base of my wraithknight as much of an annoyance as the tokens for my cryx. I have focus, soul tokens, corpse tokens, poison tokens, ring markers and I'm sure I'm leaving quite a few out. Those are basically always on the table all over the place. A 16mm dice sits nicely anywhere on the base or vehicle it's being used to mark.

@Deadknight - like I said, there are exceptions. It doesn't change that the vast plurality of WMH models are one model, one pose, one loadout. A couple of multiconfiguration kits does not a hobby make.

In 40k, a simple tactical marine may have a dozen potential weapons, any imaginable body position, and HUGELY interchangeable parts between kits. Without considering actual pose (direction of torso, arms, weapon, and head) or minor bits (magazines, genades, purity seals, etc), I'll bet there are more than one hundred million combinations of possible space marines, just by multiplying available upper torsos, lower torsos, left arm, right arm, 2h weapons, left handed weapons, right handed weapons, posed hands, backpacks, jump packs, wings, heads, shoulders, banners, tabards and capes. There are dozens of kits with hundreds of parts each that are all interchangeable, so that as a hobbyist, I can create a space marine that is doing exactly what I want, using out of the box parts.

40k modelling is a hobby because all of these pieces provide an outlet to express creativity, without being a professional sculptor.

As an example, I'm currently building a storm raven, and adding marines standing on open door platforms shooting at Genestealers crawling across the gunship. All with stock bits. Such a task would be a monumental undertaking, in PP equivalents, requiring a ridiculous amount of canibalization and sculpting; it's a weekend project in 40k.

Like I said, just pop into the P&M forum, and you will see that the plurality of threads that involve models are GW models, conversions, or 40k related/themed.

Hats because this board is predominantly a 40k board and there's not much of a WMH community here. The P&M boards on the PP forum are full of awesome conversions and paint jobs.

WMH models are less customisable almost as a necessity. You need to be able to tell what the opponents model is quickly and easily.

Saying 'WMH modelling isn't a hobby' is ridiculous. Just like 40k, it's as much or as little as you want it to be. The same goes for Malifaux, Infinity, etc. Yes it's a little more prominent in 40k, but it's definitely a big part of the other games, and can be as big a part as it is in 40k if you so wish. Stop using your anecdotal evidence as is its representative of the whole.

 Talys wrote:
@Deadknight - like I said, there are exceptions. It doesn't change that the vast plurality of WMH models are one model, one pose, one loadout. A couple of multiconfiguration kits does not a hobby make.

You also said 'name one fully poseable model' in WMH. I did.

You asked which models in WMH are intended to be magnetised. I told you. They also count as more than 'a couple' of multi confit kits - thry probably represent the majority of the warjack/warbeast line at this point.

You asked which kits offered different heads. Plenty do.

And please, spell my name right. If I had a pound for every time someone puts a k in it...

 Talys wrote:


In 40k, a simple tactical marine may have a dozen potential weapons, any imaginable body position, and HUGELY interchangeable parts between kits. Without considering actual pose (direction of torso, arms, weapon, and head) or minor bits (magazines, genades, purity seals, etc), I'll bet there are more than one hundred million combinations of possible space marines, just by multiplying available upper torsos, lower torsos, left arm, right arm, 2h weapons, left handed weapons, right handed weapons, posed hands, backpacks, jump packs, wings, heads, shoulders, banners, tabards and capes. There are dozens of kits with hundreds of parts each that are all interchangeable, so that as a hobbyist, I can create a space marine that is doing exactly what I want, using out of the box parts.

40k modelling is a hobby because all of these pieces provide an outlet to express creativity, without being a professional sculptor.

As an example, I'm currently building a storm raven, and adding marines standing on open door platforms shooting at Genestealers crawling across the gunship. All with stock bits. Such a task would be a monumental undertaking, in PP equivalents, requiring a ridiculous amount of canibalization and sculpting; it's a weekend project in 40k.

Like I said, just pop into the P&M forum, and you will see that the plurality of threads that involve models are GW models, conversions, or 40k related/themed.

You'll only get out what you put in. As I say, conversions in WMH are like bring a warcaster - if you're gonna do thrm, go epic.
http://img814.imageshack.us/img814/2010/dscn1456.jpg
I'm certainly not arguing about the hobby side of 40k. You can do a lot with it. But it's just as worthwhile doing it with WMH. Because you don't see it doesn't mean it's not there, and you frequently state your own anecdotal experience as a general fact, which is rather infuriating.

By the way, 20,000 painting threads and 2,000 terrain and board threads on the pp boards. It's less if a thing than on dakka, but nowhere near as rare as you seem to think it is.

 Talys wrote:
@Deadknight - like I said, there are exceptions. It doesn't change that the vast plurality of WMH models are one model, one pose, one loadout. A couple of multiconfiguration kits does not a hobby make.

In 40k, a simple tactical marine may have a dozen potential weapons, any imaginable body position, and HUGELY interchangeable parts between kits. Without considering actual pose (direction of torso, arms, weapon, and head) or minor bits (magazines, genades, purity seals, etc), I'll bet there are more than one hundred million combinations of possible space marines, just by multiplying available upper torsos, lower torsos, left arm, right arm, 2h weapons, left handed weapons, right handed weapons, posed hands, backpacks, jump packs, wings, heads, shoulders, banners, tabards and capes. There are dozens of kits with hundreds of parts each that are all interchangeable, so that as a hobbyist, I can create a space marine that is doing exactly what I want, using out of the box parts.

40k modelling is a hobby because all of these pieces provide an outlet to express creativity, without being a professional sculptor.

As an example, I'm currently building a storm raven, and adding marines standing on open door platforms shooting at Genestealers crawling across the gunship. All with stock bits. Such a task would be a monumental undertaking, in PP equivalents, requiring a ridiculous amount of canibalization and sculpting; it's a weekend project in 40k.

Like I said, just pop into the P&M forum, and you will see that the plurality of threads that involve models are GW models, conversions, or 40k related/themed.

Sure, but some people like converting models not just glue and place. When I make a costom model in WM I'll done real converting to get the model the way I want it. With GW I pick a one of the many arms and glue it on, really don't need much skill for that. Don't get my wrong there are some great GW conversion but they take as much work to convert as a WM model.

Deadnight wrote:

You also said 'name one fully poseable model' in WMH. I did.

I guess I was speaking for effect. You're right. There is a very small number of models by PP that allow some motion articulation. The proportion is staggeringly small.

My point is not diluted, however: Games Workshop makes model kits that have interchangeable parts which makes for interesting modelling; PP makes models which are not meant to be interchangeable.

Deadnight wrote:
I'm certainly not arguing about the hobby side of 40k. You can do a lot with it. But it's just as worthwhile doing it with WMH. Because you don't see it doesn't mean it's not there, and you frequently state your own anecdotal experience as a general fact, which is rather infuriating.

By the way, 20,000 painting threads and 2,000 terrain and board threads on the pp boards. It's less if a thing than on dakka, but nowhere near as rare as you seem to think it is.

Once again, I'm not disputing that there are WMH hobbyists and modellers. I'm asserting two things:

1. They aren't the typical WMH player
2. They are relatively hard to come by

If you disagree with #1, say so. My observation is that the vast majority of WMH players are NOT as much into hobby as they are into game. It's not just what I've seen in 1 store. I've travelled a pretty reasonable amount in the course of work, and try to pop by local hobby shops in other cities when I can (at least 100, probably a lot more). The proportion of stores with filled with players with interesting WMH stuff compared to interesting 40k stuff is really, really, really small. It happens, but rarely. How many websites are there on the Internet about 40k modelling, compared to WMH modelling? Just try a Google search. Ask painters who do commissions whether they make more money off of 40k models or WMH models.

I'm not saying that WMH modelling isn't rewarding, or worthwhile. I'm saying such people -- real people that I just bump into and can ALSO play a game with -- are harder to find.

My anecdotal experience may infuriate you, but it is my experience, and I've been around the tabletop wargaming block since about 1988. I happen to be very passionate about the hobby -- more so than the gaming, because to me the 40k game is simply a way for people with a common hobby to socialize, and to me, a tabletop wargame -- any tabletop wargame -- is a terrible format in which to compete when compared to computer games where there is zero setup and opponent skill matching. You may choose to simply ignore my posts, if you wish. I'm free to express them


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Noir wrote:


Sure, but some people like converting models not just glue and place. When I make a costom model in WM I'll done real converting to get the model the way I want it. With GW I pick a one of the many arms and glue it on, really don't need much skill for that. Don't get my wrong there are some great GW conversion but they take as much work to convert as a WM model.

For sure WMH models can be exciting. I never said otherwise. The point I was trying to make was:

1. WMH models take a lot more work to convert than GW models, because out of the box, they're not intended for that. If you want conversions, generally you need to sculpt or cannibalize models other expensive models.
2. Because it's harder and more expensive, and not intended out of the box, there are fewer people who get into it, and as a result, a smaller community of such people, especially if you take the Internet out of the equation (ie I want to game with them).

I'm not diminishing the great WMH conversions that have been done.

Again, your experience doesn't really mean anything compared to the whole. And clearly enough people think tabletop Wargaming is a worthwhile format for competing, otherwise there wouldn't be tournaments and what have you. It's not your anecdotal evidence that infuriated him, it's the way you posit it as if it's representative of the whole.

And I do disagree with #1. How are you defining hobbyists? Most WMH players build and paint their models, so the majority of WMH players are hobbyists.

 Talys wrote:

Noir wrote:


Sure, but some people like converting models not just glue and place. When I make a costom model in WM I'll done real converting to get the model the way I want it. With GW I pick a one of the many arms and glue it on, really don't need much skill for that. Don't get my wrong there are some great GW conversion but they take as much work to convert as a WM model.

For sure WMH models can be exciting. I never said otherwise. The point I was trying to make was:

1. WMH models take a lot more work to convert than GW models, because out of the box, they're not intended for that. If you want conversions, generally you need to sculpt or cannibalize models other expensive models.
2. Because it's harder and more expensive, and not intended out of the box, there are fewer people who get into it, and as a result, a smaller community of such people, especially if you take the Internet out of the equation (ie I want to game with them).

I'm not diminishing the great WMH conversions that have been done.

And my point is if all it takes is removing the model form the base and glue it in place, your not converting your just sticking models togather. It doesn't matter if your arm is placed in a more upward pose or the waist is more to the right. Being able to pose a model, how it is designed for is not converting.

Heavy conversions also aren't allowed in WMH (in events anyways) by design, because it's a game first and a collecting hobby second. For instance, you have to use most of the parts from the real model in a conversion. You can't convert something that isn't actually released yet and expect to use it in a tournament.

It's to ensure a fair and balanced playing field. While 40k encourages more creativity.

 Talys wrote:

My point is not diluted, however: Games Workshop makes model kits that have interchangeable parts which makes for interesting modelling; PP makes models which are not meant to be interchangeable.
.

I won't disagree with you here - gw offer great bitz. With regard to my WMH modelling, I tend to use gw stuff as conversion material. I'm actually tempted to do a troll/kroot army as even though I love the troll fluff and gameplay, the model line is a bit too hit and miss for me (big hands, frog faces).

 Talys wrote:

Once again, I'm not disputing that there are WMH hobbyists and modellers. I'm asserting two things:

1. They aren't the typical WMH player
2. They are relatively hard to come by

If you disagree with #1, say so. My observation is that the vast majority of WMH players are NOT as much into hobby as they are into game. It's not just what I've seen in 1 store. I've travelled a pretty reasonable amount in the course of work, and try to pop by local hobby shops in other cities when I can (at least 100, probably a lot more). The proportion of stores with filled with players with interesting WMH stuff compared to interesting 40k stuff is really, really, really small. It happens, but rarely. How many websites are there on the Internet about 40k modelling, compared to WMH modelling? Just try a Google search. Ask painters who do commissions whether they make more money off of 40k models or WMH models.
.

Regarding commissions, at least over here, a lot of them seem to make their money's via historicals, rather than sci-fi/fantasy.

Regarding points 1 and 2, I dont necessarily disagree - I disagree with the 'vast majority' comment. That's what's infuriating. Playing in stores is Aldo not necessarily the done thing. My mate runs a WMH hroup back him in Ireland with home made scenarios etc, and he plays out if his bedroom, rather than a store. Folks that are into the non-official side of things (aka steamroller) won't really be done in the places where officialdom is the de facto scenario. In other words, it's entirely possible you are simply not being exposed to the more creative side of the community, and I hope you keep that in mind. Like I said - 20,000 painting threads, and 2,000 board and terrain threads on the pp boards alone. It's not insignificant.I also think you overestimate the 'interesting' line regarding 40k. I know what kind of games you play, I know what kind of game boards you play on (and am very much likeminded in my appreciation, and approval). But 'interesting' 40k stuff? Yeah, no offense, but over here I see plenty planet Bowling ball boards, plenty grey legions and plenty 'stock' armies. To e honest, I'd say the vast majority of 40k players seem to have more interest in the game than the hobby as well. It's been a long time since I saw a physical 40k army that truly made me go 'wow' - it was a guy who'd converted an ad-mech army using tyranid rules, and there were seriously badass servitor(gaunts), assault servitor(hormagaunts), and biomechanical monstrosities (tmc's).

 Talys wrote:

My anecdotal experience may infuriate you, but it is my experience, and I've been around the tabletop wargaming block since about 1988. I happen to be very passionate about the hobby -- more so than the gaming, because to me the 40k game is simply a way for people with a common hobby to socialize, and to me, a tabletop wargame -- any tabletop wargame -- is a terrible format in which to compete when compared to computer games where there is zero setup and opponent skill matching. You may choose to simply ignore my posts, if you wish. I'm free to express them .

I was 2 when you got into gaming. Age is a number, not a badge of honour here. You are passionate about your hobby, and you do some really interesting things, from what I read in your posts. But I, and many others are equally passionate about things.

Your anecdotal evidence infuriates me not because it's what you see, but because of the conclusions you draw from it, and how you use it to colour in the whole community, that's all. I certainly won't be ignoring your posts - you tend to have a lot of interesting things to say, and I still maintain that I'd like to meet you and have a game against you. And banter. And beer. But I'm irish so thst goes without saying. plus you're canadian, and we have friends and family out that way! They speak funny though.

@Deadnight -- By the way, sorry I got your name wrong I knew what it is, by my fingers just inserted the "k" on its own, LOL.

We are really not that far apart in our thinking

1988 was actually when I got into Games Workshop stuff (before that, White Dwarf, to me, was an AD&D supplement). I painted Ral Partha miniatures before 40k existed Of course, we are all coloured by our experiences, right? I'm quite certain that If there were a large WMH modelling crowd out here on the West Coast of Canada -- you know, the kind you just bump into in stores -- I would be more into that.

And you're absolutely right: the majority of people who play 40k that I see don't have beautiful models or play on beautiful tables. What I was trying to get at is that I often strike up conversation with people in stores (in many cities that I visit, not just my local one) about hobbying, and I love looking at finished models. I run into a lot of 40k and historical folks, and at the hobby shops that sell them, a decent number of scale model folks. I'm just as happy chatting with someone interested in painting American Civil War models or jet fighters or Warjacks as I am in someone who likes kitbashing Orks (though I won't be gaming with the former ).

I'd totally look forward to gaming with you! And banter, and beer, and all that Pizza is a staple here. Like beer, it is a food group. Although, actually, I must confess that I'm not crazy about beer, sorry :( Must be the lack of Irish blood in me. But there is plenty in my gaming fridge!