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Well, I don't get to. So consider the players that are in that boat.

Martel732 wrote:
Well, I don't get to. So consider the players that are in that boat.

Might I ask why not? Do you frequently play in a league or something of the sort?

 krodarklorr wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Well, I don't get to. So consider the players that are in that boat.

Might I ask why not? Do you frequently play in a league or something of the sort?

We just get together and draw opponents randomly. So no one can list tailor.

plus what do you if your opponent can build a counter build you can't beat without buying a new army, while he is using just his standard stuff or just replaced one or two models? Buy a new army every 3 weeks?

Martel732 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Well, I don't get to. So consider the players that are in that boat.

Might I ask why not? Do you frequently play in a league or something of the sort?

We just get together and draw opponents randomly. So no one can list tailor.

Ouch, yeah that doesn't seem fun to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Makumba wrote:
plus what do you if your opponent can build a counter build you can't beat without buying a new army, while he is using just his standard stuff or just replaced one or two models? Buy a new army every 3 weeks?

Well, luckily that doesn't really happen. We're all in the same mindset of not countering and directly tailoring against people.

"Ouch, yeah that doesn't seem fun to me."

Why would it matter if GW wrote decent rules? What's wrong with making a list completely blind?

Martel732 wrote:
"Ouch, yeah that doesn't seem fun to me."

Why would it matter if GW wrote decent rules? What's wrong with making a list completely blind?

Well, lets say I want to run a fun game, and try out some Ctan shards. But, my friend is bringing his Dark Eldar. That would be a ton of wasted points against him. That's why I said not to tailor, per se, but if you're fighting a certain faction, it's nice to know what not to bring.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"Ouch, yeah that doesn't seem fun to me."

Why would it matter if GW wrote decent rules? What's wrong with making a list completely blind?

Well, lets say I want to run a fun game, and try out some Ctan shards. But, my friend is bringing his Dark Eldar. That would be a ton of wasted points against him. That's why I said not to tailor, per se, but if you're fighting a certain faction, it's nice to know what not to bring.

That is also list tailoring, though. When you put equipment in your list that might be rendered useless against certain opponents, you have to build contingencies into your list. You shouldn't be able to run Ctan shards risk-free in your list, imo.

Martel732 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"Ouch, yeah that doesn't seem fun to me."

Why would it matter if GW wrote decent rules? What's wrong with making a list completely blind?

Well, lets say I want to run a fun game, and try out some Ctan shards. But, my friend is bringing his Dark Eldar. That would be a ton of wasted points against him. That's why I said not to tailor, per se, but if you're fighting a certain faction, it's nice to know what not to bring.

That is also list tailoring, though. When you put equipment in your list that might be rendered useless against certain opponents, you have to build contingencies into your list.

Call it what you will, but most people at my store don't like blindly going into games. Getting roflstomped right off the bat because of random is already a thing in the game itself, and we don't need to make that matter worse by rolling a bad matchup.

That definitely makes many matchups much, MUCH easier. I don't have that luxury. It doesn't work out well for BA as it turns out. Of course, the converse is that players can't optimize weapons loadouts for meqs, either. That fact doesn't seem to help much, though.

Martel732 wrote:
That definitely makes many matchups much, MUCH easier. I don't have that luxury. It doesn't work out well for BA as it turns out. Of course, the converse is that players can't optimize weapons loadouts for meqs, either. That fact doesn't seem to help much, though.

Yeah, it certainly does suck that your group does things that way, but I guess you have to adapt. I don't think I could ever do it, honestly. I enjoy playing casual, fun games way too much.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
That definitely makes many matchups much, MUCH easier. I don't have that luxury. It doesn't work out well for BA as it turns out. Of course, the converse is that players can't optimize weapons loadouts for meqs, either. That fact doesn't seem to help much, though.

Yeah, it certainly does suck that your group does things that way, but I guess you have to adapt. I don't think I could ever do it, honestly. I enjoy playing casual, fun games way too much.

Those ARE the casual games. That's not even a tournament set up. Do you really think your way would help BA that much? I don't think so, really. BA are pretty easy to tailor for.

Martel732 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
That definitely makes many matchups much, MUCH easier. I don't have that luxury. It doesn't work out well for BA as it turns out. Of course, the converse is that players can't optimize weapons loadouts for meqs, either. That fact doesn't seem to help much, though.

Yeah, it certainly does suck that your group does things that way, but I guess you have to adapt. I don't think I could ever do it, honestly. I enjoy playing casual, fun games way too much.

Those ARE the casual games. That's not even a tournament set up.

I know. But, again, what do you do if you wanna try out sub-optimal units? Hope you don't get paired against Douchy McDouchpants?

Martel732 wrote:


Actually, I'd be all for completely trashing ALL of GW's rules and rewriting from the ground up. I don't think Zagman goes nearly far enough.

Haha your not the only one, these rules are absolute trash.

Thing is its easier to get people on board with an errata than a rewrite. It also has the benefit of being able to use existing material (armies etc) from GW instead of writing it from scratch - despite their terrible balance the GW codexes can be a useful resource in this way

Been looking at a ruleset based on Bolt Action myself

 TheNewBlood wrote:

 Dakkamite wrote:
If the rules as is are failing you then try homeruling it.

Zagman's written a pretty cool game-wide errata in Proposed Rules, maybe give that a shot.

The problem with Zagman's proposed errata is that it is just as bad as the core rules GW puts out, but in different ways.

For example, did you know that Flyers can't Jink anymore, as that would be claiming a cover save, which isn't allowed anymore? Or that Scatbikers at S5 are much more balanced than S6?

His Necrons one is almost as bad. With what he's proposing, C'tan spam will be the best option for Necron cheesemongers (220 points for a Trans C'tan? Really?)

I don't want to get on the guy so hard, as he did put a lot of effort into compiling those errata and they address some of the fundamental imbalances in the game, but I would take GW writing rules over him.

Fan rules/House rules should be an FAQ to fix the small details, not changing things wholesale.

Apart from some questionably OP formations, Necrons are fine balance-wise. People just haven't figured out effective strategies for playing against them because the internet has been freaking out about Eldar.

Go post your concerns in his Necron errata. I run Orks and Chaos and those erratas seem great - he's made so much unviable garbage playable that I can't wait to give it a try

 krodarklorr wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
That definitely makes many matchups much, MUCH easier. I don't have that luxury. It doesn't work out well for BA as it turns out. Of course, the converse is that players can't optimize weapons loadouts for meqs, either. That fact doesn't seem to help much, though.

Yeah, it certainly does suck that your group does things that way, but I guess you have to adapt. I don't think I could ever do it, honestly. I enjoy playing casual, fun games way too much.

Those ARE the casual games. That's not even a tournament set up.

I know. But, again, what do you do if you wanna try out sub-optimal units? Hope you don't get paired against Douchy McDouchpants?

Where I play, try them out, but just be prepared to lose.

Makumba wrote:plus what do you if your opponent can build a counter build you can't beat without buying a new army, while he is using just his standard stuff or just replaced one or two models? Buy a new army every 3 weeks?

Hyperbole much, buddy? Seriously, go find an Eldar or Necron or AdMech player who isn't a cheesemonger and play against them. I think you'll find the experience quite informative.

Martel732 wrote:"Ouch, yeah that doesn't seem fun to me."

Why would it matter if GW wrote decent rules? What's wrong with making a list completely blind?

I'm not saying that GW's rules are any good, but that they're all we have to make do with. Feel free to change them; I know I do, with the consent of my opponent.

Building lists blind is what most people do for pickup games, and that's fine. But they should also be aware of the power level of the list they're bringing. Necrons are powerful but far from unbeatable. I think that they've shifted the meta, to where some sort of CC "hammer" is necessary in armies now. In the case of Blood Angels, Death Company seem like an excellent blend of durability and killing power.

New Answer -- YES! Just play your casual Decurion against the casual Adeptus Mechanicus War Convocation and all their free casual upgrades and relics.

 Talys wrote:
New Answer -- YES! Just play your casual Decurion against the casual Adeptus Mechanicus War Convocation and all their free casual upgrades and relics.

*Unit upgrades subject to normal restrictions. Relics are one per model. Note that this formation may be the size and points value of an entire army*

You see? This is what happens when people don't pay attention! They're so focused on one set of robots that another set comes around and slaps them awake!

Hyperbole much, buddy? Seriously, go find an Eldar or Necron or AdMech player who isn't a cheesemonger and play against them. I think you'll find the experience quite informative.

I play IG, two of my opponents use eldar, the third uses GK. It is not a hyperbol. IF they would try to tailor, my IG would be dead. Better yet the GK player doesn't even have to tailor, he uses his normal TAC stuff and it counters my list.

I don't know what a cheesemonger is to be honest, and I know how playing other necron or eldar player is suppose to be informative. I played people from other shops and other cities. Everyone uses the same units and the same list with little changed, like some places treat ally as second CAD while others don't or some don't accept formations, while others do. Which isn't even much change for necron or eldar anyway, as both decurions necron and eldar have are FoC not just formations.

To be honest the GK TAC list tackles basically every army well (I can't think of a single army that it does poorly against).

SGTPozy wrote:
To be honest the GK TAC list tackles basically every army well (I can't think of a single army that it does poorly against).

Ironically, BA. And other marines sporting grav cents, for different reasons. I don't fear GK at all, and I'm scared of a lot of lists in this game. Their model count is even worse, and the super-MC is garbage against BA.

Makumba wrote:

Hyperbole much, buddy? Seriously, go find an Eldar or Necron or AdMech player who isn't a cheesemonger and play against them. I think you'll find the experience quite informative.

I play IG, two of my opponents use eldar, the third uses GK. It is not a hyperbol. IF they would try to tailor, my IG would be dead. Better yet the GK player doesn't even have to tailor, he uses his normal TAC stuff and it counters my list.

I don't know what a cheesemonger is to be honest, and I know how playing other necron or eldar player is suppose to be informative. I played people from other shops and other cities. Everyone uses the same units and the same list with little changed, like some places treat ally as second CAD while others don't or some don't accept formations, while others do. Which isn't even much change for necron or eldar anyway, as both decurions necron and eldar have are FoC not just formations.

It's nice that your opponents don't list tailor against you. Ironically, IG have some hard counters to Eldar and Necrons. Spam artillery barrages until their big units are dead. Hit big models with lots of lascannons. Lasguns are for pouring wounds on anything that gets close.

You say your opponents all use the same units? They could be cheesemongers, in that they spam powerful competitive-level units and armies in a more casual setting. Or you could have the problem of Martel732, where your local scene is simply too competitive. In that case, it's time to find a new group of people to play with.

Also, some rules clarifications: Allied detachments are not a second CAD. They are a separate Allied Detachment, unless it's Tyranids. And the Decurion/Warhost/Slaughtercult is not an FOC; it is a formation in its own right, but one made up of Formations instead of FOC slots.

It's always a serious indictment of this game that the solution to playing people who want to win is to go find people who want to win a lot less.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

It's nice that your opponents don't list tailor against you. Ironically, IG have some hard counters to Eldar and Necrons. Spam artillery barrages until their big units are dead. Hit big models with lots of lascannons. Lasguns are for pouring wounds on anything that gets close.

Half the artillery got taken out of the codex. Of what remains, the Basilisk remains identical to its 3E incarnation, unimpressive as ever, costing as much as many Russ tanks with nowhere near the armor and a minimum range (which precludes firing indirectly) that typically covers most of the board and thus reduces its utility in that role to near zero outside of apocalypse games. The Manticore is both less capable in its intended AT role relative to its 5E incarnation (due to changes in the way vehicles are killed) and got more expensive to boot, though yes isn't terrible killing Necron Warriors...if they're out in the open. The only consistently useful artillery weapon however is the Wyvern. And yes, the Wyvern is absolutely murder on Eldar infantry if they're caught out of transports, but otherwise it's not doing much, and Eldar have their own tools to deal with AV12/10/10 open topped vehicles. Against Necrons, the Wyvern is decidedly less impressive, and is really only much of any threat to the absolute weakest and most expendable units you'll find in a Decurion.


IG lascannons are not typically super impressive. your options typically are single BS3 lascannons on things like Russ tanks or Sentinels (that can't benefit from Orders), or infantry heavy weapons squads (which are some of the least efficient and most easily removed heavy weapons units in the game). Space Marine armies actually typically do Lascannon spam far more effectively than IG, as even though IG can take a larger volume of Lascannons, SM's can pack in almost as many on far more effective and resilient units. The only really effective lascannon platform IG have is the Vendetta, and while not a bad flyer, its absence for that critical turn 1 (and sometimes turn 2) means you don't see it included as often as it used to be (even before they increased its cost by 40pts)

Meanwhile, Lasguns don't kill squat. I think I inflicted a grand total of 2 wounds over three games in the tournament I played in this weekend with lasguns playing at 1850pts? They're not even all that able to be concentrated unless you're running a big blob squad, and even then, you get 300pts of naked IG blob getting FRFSRF shooting a Decurion Warriors, with everyone somehow in double-tap range, you're maybe killing six 13pt Warriors? Maybe one Canoptek Harvest RP Wraith? Sure, they'll kill Eldar infantry, but any basic gun in rapid fire distances will.

Martel732 wrote:
It's always a serious indictment of this game that the solution to playing people who want to win is to go find people who want to win a lot less.

The same could be said of any game, whether it be Warhammer or Cribbage. It's all a matter of the person's mindset of what they want to get out of the game.

That said, Necrons are durable. They're probably the most durable army in the game. Fortunately, 5/6 times this game is not about killing as many Necrons as possible (and that 6th time is best discounted, as nobody that I know actually enjoys kill points). Especially in Malestrom, victory goes to whoever gets the most objectives. I've had games where I was losing multiple critical units, but still won due to objectives. The Decurion is not good at holding objectives, because Objective Secured is a thing and it matters.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It's always a serious indictment of this game that the solution to playing people who want to win is to go find people who want to win a lot less.

The same could be said of any game, whether it be Warhammer or Cribbage. It's all a matter of the person's mindset of what they want to get out of the game.

That said, Necrons are durable. They're probably the most durable army in the game. Fortunately, 5/6 times this game is not about killing as many Necrons as possible (and that 6th time is best discounted, as nobody that I know actually enjoys kill points). Especially in Malestrom, victory goes to whoever gets the most objectives. I've had games where I was losing multiple critical units, but still won due to objectives. The Decurion is not good at holding objectives, because Objective Secured is a thing and it matters.

As a Decurion player, and someone that DOES attend tournaments, Objective Secured has come up so little I could count the games on one hand when it did something.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It's always a serious indictment of this game that the solution to playing people who want to win is to go find people who want to win a lot less.

The same could be said of any game, whether it be Warhammer or Cribbage. It's all a matter of the person's mindset of what they want to get out of the game.

That said, Necrons are durable. They're probably the most durable army in the game. Fortunately, 5/6 times this game is not about killing as many Necrons as possible (and that 6th time is best discounted, as nobody that I know actually enjoys kill points). Especially in Malestrom, victory goes to whoever gets the most objectives. I've had games where I was losing multiple critical units, but still won due to objectives. The Decurion is not good at holding objectives, because Objective Secured is a thing and it matters.

As a Decurion player, and someone that DOES attend tournaments, Objective Secured has come up so little I could count the games on one hand when it did something.

My mistake. I shouldn't have assumed that just because ObSec is important in my armies and strategies that it should apply to Necrons.

What is it about the Decurion that makes ObSec useless? Is it just their sheer durability?

ObSec is a very conditional bonus.

First,and foremost, an objective has to be contested in the first place. If objectives are not contested, then ObSec is utterly irrelevant.

Second, an ObSec unit has to be one of the contesting units. If an objective is contested by two non-Obsec units (e.g. FA bikers rushing over to an objective that's held by an HS tank) well then ObSec doesn't do anything for the army that has it.

Third, there are other ways to neutralize an opponent's control of an objective. Killing or forcing the controlling unit to break and run are of course the obvious solution.

Fourth, and this is the big one, for it to ulitmately determine the winner, the objective in question has to be decisive. If you're playing a Maelstrom mission and losing 4-13, well, gettin an ObSec unit to secure an objective from an opponent to end 5-13 didn't change anything...

Where ObSec really makes itself most felt is in Maelstrom missions, which aren't universally played, and even where they are played they aren't typically the *only* missions played. Even there, the units that typically make best use of it are things like Eldar Jetbikes that can zip around the board nabbing something each turn, and Necrons don't have a unit to fill that role even in a traditional CAD.

Is ObSec useless? No. Is it a gigantic weakness that's going to bite Decurion armies in the ass and cost them games on a routine basis? No.

For some anecdotal evidence, in the tournament I played this weekend, not a single game was decided by Objective Secured. What took the event was Eldar D-weapon spam and Tigurius with Gravcents and Knights.

 Vaktathi wrote:
ObSec is a very conditional bonus.

First,and foremost, an objective has to be contested in the first place. If objectives are not contested, then ObSec is utterly irrelevant.

Second, an ObSec unit has to be one of the contesting units. If an objective is contested by two non-Obsec units (e.g. FA bikers rushing over to an objective that's held by an HS tank) well then ObSec doesn't do anything for the army that has it.

Third, there are other ways to neutralize an opponent's control of an objective. Killing or forcing the controlling unit to break and run are of course the obvious solution.

Fourth, and this is the big one, for it to ulitmately determine the winner, the objective in question has to be decisive. If you're playing a Maelstrom mission and losing 4-13, well, gettin an ObSec unit to secure an objective from an opponent to end 5-13 didn't change anything...

Where ObSec really makes itself most felt is in Maelstrom missions, which aren't universally played, and even where they are played they aren't typically the *only* missions played. Even there, the units that typically make best use of it are things like Eldar Jetbikes that can zip around the board nabbing something each turn, and Necrons don't have a unit to fill that role even in a traditional CAD.

Is ObSec useless? No. Is it a gigantic weakness that's going to bite Decurion armies in the ass and cost them games on a routine basis? No.

For some anecdotal evidence, in the tournament I played this weekend, not a single game was decided by Objective Secured. What took the event was Eldar D-weapon spam and Tigurius with Gravcents and Knights.

Thanks for the write-up. I hadn't really taken all of the factors in Objective Secured into account. I assumed that since Necron armies don't tend to have lots of ObSec units it was one of their weaknesses. This only supports my theory that Close Combat is the answer to Necrons: their mainline troops are weak at it and Necrons have I2 across the board. CC can also prevent the scoring of objectives and contest them, can kill units or force them to run away, and can be effective in all mission types (except kill points, but nobody likes kill points). Note that this doesn't apply to Wraiths; volume of fire and praying to the dice gods are the only practical solutions for most armies, because Wraiths mulch their way through anything and everything.

On a side note, that tournament sounds like absolutely no fun. I hope that ranged D is mysteriously FAQ'ed out in the next one you attend.

Ideally CC would be the way to do it against things like Warriors and Immortals, but Necrons also have a good number of solid CC units now as well to help alleviate that, even without Wraiths. Even at I2, Lychguard and Flayed Ones can still put out a lot of hurt.

I wouldn't look at ObSec really as a weakness, more just as a "trim option" they don't happen to have in a Decurion would really be the way I'd look at it.

The tournament was for the most part fun (I did lose to the Tigurius list, but I couldn't hit squat, 9 lascannons fired on the first turn hit with only 1 shot), but yeah, that Eldar list was absurd, and not to bash the guy playing it on a personal level, but he's not normally a guy that places highly (has to be reminded of rules, even beneficial ones from his own codex, often does weird things like spend lots of warp charges casting Conceal on a unit that nobody is ever going to shoot at, etc) and it felt rather illustrative of most of our local group's fears about that book.