[Heavy Gear 2e/Tactical] Vehicle Discussion: Walker Design & Aesthetics

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**JohnHwangDD**

Thanks, Albertorius. The historical context is helpful.

I always look at Robotech missile systems as the defininig version...

For Frames, don't they need the Jump Jets to keep up?

**Albertorius**

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Thanks, Albertorius. The historical context is helpful.

I always look at Robotech missile systems as the defininig version...

For Frames, don't they need the Jump Jets to keep up?

Are you thinking about the Hover mode there? Because Frames don't have jump jets by default (they can get them using Mobility Packs, though).

Honestly speaking, HT-only battlegroups will always be faster, but as their operational range is so tiny, particularly when they go fast, from a strategical POV, and even from a tactical one, Frames are able to keep up with the HT advances.

When used properly, and in properly open terrain, HTs go first, top speed. They kill the most valuable/dangerous targets and leave the shattered remains of the enemy as pockets of resistance. Then the Frames and troop carriers mop up those pockets, consolidate, and wait for the HTs to double back to refuel and rearm. Rinse and repeat.

On built up terrain, that it's the bane of that tactics (and of the regular CEF HTs and troop transports), Frame are invaluable as strike teams and as bodyguards for the rest of the CER armor. GRELs still consolidate and mop up, but also storm buildings and the like.

**JohnHwangDD**

I was actually asking about the Jump Jets option, whether it made them the same speed as a HT.

Also, the CEF "Blitzkrieg" tactics make perfect sense.

**Albertorius**

JohnHwangDD wrote:
I was actually asking about the Jump Jets option, whether it made them the same speed as a HT.

Also, the CEF "Blitzkrieg" tactics make perfect sense.

Ah, ok, misunderstood the meaning. No, not really. Jump Jets would allow the Frames to be airdropped and to gain a lot of new movement options, but they wouldn't get faster, at least in comparison with HTs.

**JohnHwangDD**

Sorry, it's me thinking 40k Jump Pack instead of looking it up in HGB.

**Firebreak**

Redeemer31 wrote:
Albertorius wrote:

Setting wise, Paxton sells to everyone, and if you went to the old vehicle books you'd see just how many of the polar vehicles carry Paxton weapons (hint: a whole lot ^^). The problem with Paxton has never been the actual weapons. The problem with Paxton is that they are Johnny come-lately's to the Gear manufacturing field by... well, centuries, and they never got an actual foothold on it. But somehow, for some reason... they're the best there are at that nowadays. Because REASONS. And they're manufacturing more Gear chassis designs nowadays than both polar powers combined. Which, taking into account that this is AFTER they got their main manufacturing centers blown up to kingdom come (along, I might say with basically all their air force). But they got around to not only designing but building a whole lot of new Gear chassises. And new abomin- pardon, "gearstriders".

But hey, it's the faction that makes the main playtester's hard, so...

And don't make me talk about NuCoal, now. You won't like it.

Sorry for dredging this up but anytime I see anything about the sudden rise of Paxton, I always feel the need to chime in.

I put the blame for all of those shenanigans on DP9 and Heavy Gear 2. Actually, to be specific, I put the blame mainly on one of the people from Activision who was working on HG2. He was was a fan of Heavy Gear and he wanted to contribute to the HG universe. Fine. When he approached DP9 about it, they generally didn't care because their mentality was that it was a computer game so whatever.

Now, this guy did not want to be tied to the North nor did he want to be tied to the South; he wanted to created a Badlands regiment. Ok, fine. Then he looked at the stats for the Warrior IV and compared them to the Jaguar and Black Mamba. He was not happy about with the stats. He wanted something that was comparable to the Jaguar/BM. So he created the Warrior Elite.

I still remember on IRC when he was showing it off. It was more maneuverable than a Jaguar or BM and it had a Vibrorapier. Some other people and I tried to talk him out of it but he wouldn't listen and put it in the game. He then started creating other Gears, such as the Agamemnon, Perseus (a stealth/hover Gear!), and some other munchy crap. But he needed to explain where all of this came about. So he started creating some background information about how Paxton was so worried about war popping up between the North and the South after Thor Hutchison's death, that they decided to secretly recruit all of these dissatisfied people who worked for various Northern/Southern Gear manufacturers to create these 'Elite' gears that were better than anything the North or South had. And of course, all development was offsite so when Paxton City went boom, luckily they still had these amazing Gears out of harm's way.

He even tried posting some of the stuff on the Heavy Gear Mailing List. But when his designs were cut to ribbons, he refused to share anymore information and just did whatever he wanted.

What pisses me off the most is that this guy kept insisting on putting this stuff into the game, which eventually wound up in the main HG storyline, which pretty much killed Heavy Gear for me. He even created his own regiment, the Shadowguards, which was formally an entire Southern Legion Noire regiment that defected and ran off into the Badlands because they were ordered to go destroy a Badlands village while all of the townsfolk were innocently celebrating some holiday and the kids were all skipping around a maypole (I wish I was making this drek up).

It's been almost twenty years since then but even now this all rankles for me. Gah, now I'm all annoyed.

I do so love these nuggets of history. Having been 11 when the game was released, I wasn't quite as up on Heavy Gear creation as I am now. Any other stories you could share from those days?

**Albertorius**

How about the original creation of the HTs' stats and the threshold hunting they did for them?

**ferrous**

Albertorius wrote:
How about the original creation of the HTs' stats and the threshold hunting they did for them?

I wouldn't mind hearing about that. I didn't think armor values were as big of a problem until Blitz, since all armor degraded pre-Blitz, so armor thresholds weren't as big of a deal. Ie 18 armor was actually good to have over 17, not just in the off chance that your opponent might've brought the only 17 damage weapon around. Unless this is a different threshold?

**Albertorius**

ferrous wrote:
Albertorius wrote:
How about the original creation of the HTs' stats and the threshold hunting they did for them?

I wouldn't mind hearing about that. I didn't think armor values were as big of a problem until Blitz, since all armor degraded pre-Blitz, so armor thresholds weren't as big of a deal. Ie 18 armor was actually good to have over 17, not just in the off chance that your opponent might've brought the only 17 damage weapon around. Unless this is a different threshold?

Different kind of thresholds

IIRC, the original stats of Earth's HTs (the ones from the HG2 tie-in, I think) were designed in such a way that the speed, armor, weapons, perks and flaws were added so as to always keep them exactly at the threshold of maximum efficiency for the cost. That way, they were able to design a vehicle with a MTV that was much lower than it would have been had they designed them organically, as they did for example with the polar tanks and armor.

So they ended making them waaay cheaper than they should for their capabilities, and way cheaper than other comparable tanks.

**JohnHwangDD**

So Earth HTs are min-maxed designs? Nice.

No wonder the Frames play second fiddle.
____

Too bad I grabbed a full set of them... Oh, well.

**Albertorius**

JohnHwangDD wrote:
So Earth HTs are min-maxed designs? Nice.

No wonder the Frames play second fiddle.

They were, back during HG 2nd edition. They were substantially reined in afterwards for Blitz, IIRC.

**ferrous**

In Blitz, the hovertanks were overpriced for several editions. Before NuBlitz, they were really expensive, and needed to take some downgrades because the default gun sucked and the downgrade was actually better and cost less. They were pretty mean machines though, decent armor, fast, and with powerful weapons. But for several editions if you took the minimum two, that was pretty much your entire army, so it was easy to get surrounded and killed.

Of course, they were still better to take than frames, who were overpriced and subpar. =)