Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Of course their guns fail if they aren't treated properly. It''s called maintenance.

Lasguns are extremely low maintenance, and Tau can't recharge their guns by throwing their batteries in a campfire or leaving them out in the sun. That's the real crazy thing about Lasguns. If you have time to recharge, they basically have limitless ammo. Saves massively on resources and is GREAT for extended campaigns where supplies are limited. So from an Imperium perspective, lasguns make way more sense than pulse rifles (assuming they would ever dabble in such heretical xenos tech, which of course they don't). They've got manpower. It makes sense to produce a huge amount of the cheapest gun they can, that lasts basically forever. Of course, the IoM also produces huge, impractical super weapons (Titans, battleships), so militarily they're a weird combination of the Soviets/Red Chinese and the WWII German army. Tau are more like the modern US military. Lots of cool tech and good logistics so that large numbers of soldiers are unnecessary.

 fallinq wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Of course their guns fail if they aren't treated properly. It''s called maintenance.

Lasguns are extremely low maintenance, and Tau can't recharge their guns by throwing their batteries in a campfire or leaving them out in the sun. That's the real crazy thing about Lasguns. If you have time to recharge, they basically have limitless ammo. Saves massively on resources and is GREAT for extended campaigns where supplies are limited. So from an Imperium perspective, lasguns make way more sense than pulse rifles (assuming they would ever dabble in such heretical xenos tech, which of course they don't). They've got manpower. It makes sense to produce a huge amount of the cheapest gun they can, that lasts basically forever. Of course, the IoM also produces huge, impractical super weapons (Titans, battleships), so militarily they're a weird combination of the Soviets/Red Chinese and the WWII German army. Tau are more like the modern US military. Lots of cool tech and good logistics so that large numbers of soldiers are unnecessary.

What? I wasn't talking about the tau at all. When did that come into it?

Also, small point, you can charge the power-packs by putting them in the fire, but it can also severely damage the packs, and is (IIRC) banned by the imperium. And it takes a full 24 hours in the sun. Now it's still useful, but only if you are stuck without a supply-line. And can't all enegy based weapons (las, pulse, ect) technically charge in the sun? Solar panels to exist in the future right?

They have solar panels, but not all have them built into the weapon.

And plasma/melts don't use energy. They use hydrogen cells iirc.

Conventional plasma, yes, but pulse weapons work by firing a particle that breaks down within the barrel. Canonically it's 50 shots per enegy pack. I think lasguns are somewhere in the 70-100 range or something, I'm not quite sure.

Varies by specific pattern of las-weapon, yes, but most average around 60 shots per charged cell.

However, the cell can be recharged in just about anything that provides electrical power. So if you're fighting in a Hive, say, just plug it into a wall-socket (assuming there's power).

Would that not be true for all energy weapons as well? At least if you had an adapter?

Why does it take so long for the imperium to do things?

Anyone who has had to deal with a government department knows one thing:

Bureaucracy has a momentum.

The bigger a bureaucracy is, the longer it takes to get stuff done. It's not a linear progression, though, it's more geometric or logarithmic.
A Bureaucracy the size of the mperium has so much momentum that all the energy in the galaxy can barely shift it. The emperor himself couldn't get a paperclip through supplies in the time he has left in his little black psyker sucking box.

Folks have mentioned bureaucracy, size of the universe but related to that there's also much more like:
Politics (e.g. fighting over who leads a campaign), superstition (e.g. having to perform rites for everything), war, propogated laxity, xenos intervention, logistics (le.g. oading a billion people into a starship takes time), the scale of construction (e.g. having to build that starship), and even incorrect decisions (e.g. the Inquisitor that mistook an early indication of a Necron invasion for a Psychic attack)

 chromedog wrote:
Why does it take so long for the imperium to do things?

Anyone who has had to deal with a government department knows one thing:

Bureaucracy has a momentum.

The bigger a bureaucracy is, the longer it takes to get stuff done. It's not a linear progression, though, it's more geometric or logarithmic.
A Bureaucracy the size of the mperium has so much momentum that all the energy in the galaxy can barely shift it. The emperor himself couldn't get a paperclip through supplies in the time he has left in his little black psyker sucking box.

I'd like to discuss the Emperor. Who's with me? I think I'll have to make a new thread, though...

And to the guy above me, it makes sense. Your reasons are great. I just hate how many problems the Imperium has. It's like GW said: what's worse than a declining galaxy-spanning empire with a brutal bureaucracy and an actual religious Inquisition? A declining galaxy-spanning empire with a brutal bureaucracy and an actual religious Inquisition that's also faced on all sides by rebellion, dissent, the forces of Chaos (which have literal gods) aaaand why not throw in a couple alien races that individually would be a great challenge. But together? This'll be fun!

Oh, GW...

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Would that not be true for all energy weapons as well? At least if you had an adapter?

No. Plasma and Melta weapons use tanks of unstable elements, usually hydrogen, to generate massive amounts of heat (or is simply easily converted into plasma). You could probably recharge the e-cell that provides the spark for the reaction, but that's not the same thing. Once you run out of the plasma or melta-making material, you're out of ammo. The massive power-packs on lascannons are non-rechargeable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 urbanknight4 wrote:

 chromedog wrote:
Why does it take so long for the imperium to do things?

Anyone who has had to deal with a government department knows one thing:

Bureaucracy has a momentum.

The bigger a bureaucracy is, the longer it takes to get stuff done. It's not a linear progression, though, it's more geometric or logarithmic.
A Bureaucracy the size of the mperium has so much momentum that all the energy in the galaxy can barely shift it. The emperor himself couldn't get a paperclip through supplies in the time he has left in his little black psyker sucking box.

I'd like to discuss the Emperor. Who's with me? I think I'll have to make a new thread, though...

And to the guy above me, it makes sense. Your reasons are great. I just hate how many problems the Imperium has. It's like GW said: what's worse than a declining galaxy-spanning empire with a brutal bureaucracy and an actual religious Inquisition? A declining galaxy-spanning empire with a brutal bureaucracy and an actual religious Inquisition that's also faced on all sides by rebellion, dissent, the forces of Chaos (which have literal gods) aaaand why not throw in a couple alien races that individually would be a great challenge. But together? This'll be fun!

Oh, GW...

Um, yeah, that's... that's a dystopia for you. It's the worst imaginable happening to everyone everywhere right now at the same time.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Would that not be true for all energy weapons as well? At least if you had an adapter?

No. Plasma and Melta weapons use tanks of unstable elements, usually hydrogen, to generate massive amounts of heat (or is simply easily converted into plasma). You could probably recharge the e-cell that provides the spark for the reaction, but that's not the same thing. Once you run out of the plasma or melta-making material, you're out of ammo. The massive power-packs on lascannons are non-rechargeable.

But I'm not talking about those, I'm talking about pure energy based ones. Las guns are a perfect example and the secondary ammunition of pulse weapons is small enough to mean a single individual and carry thousands of shots worth with ease. (actually, now that i think about it, those are the only ones that are really applicable, at least AFAIK)

Can't speak to the Tau weapons, don't know how they function.

Any of the standard las-weapons in the Imperium, though, yeah, you can just plug them into a wall and recharge them. Theoretically possible with whatever powercell Gravguns and the like use, too.

Well, with pulse weapons you have your main power pack (similar to what las weapons use) which is good for 50 shots before you need to reaload. From the images, that seems to be about the size of a 30 round clip, maybe a bit a bit longer (which is to say, a bit longer in the direction the bullets go). You than have a secondary thing, which supplies the particals that are accelerated, which is quite small, smaller than a magazine you would use in a pistol, which is good for hundreds of shots.

So a two-stage ammunition system. Yes, you could (theoretically) use an adapter to recharge the power cell, but the particle cell wotsit is right out. So... without a supply chain of those, you will eventually have a club.

The real reason is that it's Space Dark Ages. (Not the real Dark Ages, but the one in popular culture.) Progress is the opposite of the whole feel.

The society is supposed to be one steeped in superstition (see above). It is not early-20th-century Europe in space, but 8th-century Europe. There is no science in the modern sense at all.

One word, RELIGION.



Also ever see that episode of futurama that shows the bureaucracy of the year 3000 and how ridiculous it was? I imagine 40k being something like that but 1000x larger and more confusing. You need to get your sign off signed off by the hundreds of bureaucrats ahead of you for the simplest of things.

Ummm, the Dark Ages were not caused by Christianity. They were caused by the collapse of the Roman empire due to external and internal conflict.

Of which the adoption of Christianity played a part, as it denied the divinity of Caesar, but this is really not the place for that discussion.

 Psienesis wrote:
Of which the adoption of Christianity played a part, as it denied the divinity of Caesar, but this is really not the place for that discussion.

The Emperor being Divine was never a huge part of the Roman empire. Losing that was not responsible for its collapse in any way shape or form.

It had more to do with there being a long succession of lunatics sitting on the throne.


In fact, if it hadn't been for monks sitting in monasteries dutifully maintaining earlier records much more would have been lost.

Point is it seems the Imperium is so obsessed and controlled by its blind devotion to the god emperor they can't seem to focus on anything past that, much like the dark ages brought on by Christianity.

Technology seems to thrive for the other races that aren't consumed entirely by whatever religion or fanaticism that drives them.

Is dogma holding the Imperium back? Maybe.

Is it the only thing keeping the Imperium together? Most certainly.

It seems a double edged power sword...

 Grey Templar wrote:
Ummm, the Dark Ages were not caused by Christianity. They were caused by the collapse of the Roman empire due to external and internal conflict.

Yup. In fact, it was Christian monks who were PRESERVING Roman and Greek texts (the knowledge that the Renaissance would be built on) that the Germanic tribes running rampant at the time were burning them if they got their hands on them. Also, the lack of technological progress during the so called "Dark Ages" has been greatly exaggerated. I suggest looking up the book "Medieval Machine" to enlighten yourself.

"I drew this chart, which is very factual and scientific because it's a chart. The Y axis represents my emotional feelings on this subject, which is why it contains no actual units of measurement and is labelled with an abstract concept that cannot be quantified. I am so logical and objective. Suck it, religious people."

 Resin Glazed Guardsman wrote:
It seems a double edged power sword...

Indeed, although it is incorrect to say the Imperium isn't advancing at all. They are advancing in some areas, and sliding back in others.

The Ad Mech does do research too. Of course, their need to fully ensure everything is in accordance with the Omnissiah does make things progress slowly. That said, they have very good reasons to be cautious and skeptical. Humanity was almost wiped out when their technology turned on them, and this was at the height of mankind's scientific understanding. When something that bad happens, you do your best to make sure it never happens again.

 fallinq wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Ummm, the Dark Ages were not caused by Christianity. They were caused by the collapse of the Roman empire due to external and internal conflict.

Yup. In fact, it was Christian monks who were PRESERVING Roman and Greek texts (the knowledge that the Renaissance would be built on) that the Germanic tribes running rampant at the time were burning them if they got their hands on them. Also, the lack of technological progress during the so called "Dark Ages" has been greatly exaggerated. I suggest looking up the book "Medieval Machine" to enlighten yourself.

"I drew this chart, which is very factual and scientific because it's a chart. The Y axis represents my emotional feelings on this subject, which is why it contains no actual units of measurement and is labelled with an abstract concept that cannot be quantified. I am so logical and objective. Suck it, religious people."

Tried to find the book, mate. Sounds interesting but it's nowhere to be found.

 Resin Glazed Guardsman wrote:
One word, RELIGION.



Also ever see that episode of futurama that shows the bureaucracy of the year 3000 and how ridiculous it was? I imagine 40k being something like that but 1000x larger and more confusing. You need to get your sign off signed off by the hundreds of bureaucrats ahead of you for the simplest of things.

That's actually false. The Church was one of the greatest beneficiaries of the sciences during the Middle Ages and Monks are the only reason Medieval Europe even remembered Greek Scientists and Philosophers due to preserving their scrolls. The Dark Age also truthfully never existed as a legitimate period of time- humanity has never technologically regressed in history. The true cause of the implosion in trade and civilization in western Europe was the Western Roman Empire going up in smoke and leaving a massive power vacuum that every Gaul and Frank was scrambling to fill.

Also the nation that brought back stability to the warring tribes and clans of Europe was a gigantic Catholic empire.

 urbanknight4 wrote:

 fallinq wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Ummm, the Dark Ages were not caused by Christianity. They were caused by the collapse of the Roman empire due to external and internal conflict.

Yup. In fact, it was Christian monks who were PRESERVING Roman and Greek texts (the knowledge that the Renaissance would be built on) that the Germanic tribes running rampant at the time were burning them if they got their hands on them. Also, the lack of technological progress during the so called "Dark Ages" has been greatly exaggerated. I suggest looking up the book "Medieval Machine" to enlighten yourself.

"I drew this chart, which is very factual and scientific because it's a chart. The Y axis represents my emotional feelings on this subject, which is why it contains no actual units of measurement and is labelled with an abstract concept that cannot be quantified. I am so logical and objective. Suck it, religious people."

Tried to find the book, mate. Sounds interesting but it's nowhere to be found.

By Jean Gimpel. 1st result on Amazon.com. Took me literally two seconds. Where were you looking?
http://www.amazon.com/Medieval-Machine-Industrial-Revolution-Middle/dp/0140045147/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1437594147&sr=1-1&keywords=medieval+machines

I'm an atheist myself but I'd like to point out that it was a Catholic priest George Lemaitres that gave us the theory of the Big Bang. The Pope of the time (early 50s iirc) was ready to order it canon but was advised that it defeats the point of how the theory came about through observation. Lemaitre wanted the theory to remain neutral.

 fallinq wrote:

 urbanknight4 wrote:

 fallinq wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Ummm, the Dark Ages were not caused by Christianity. They were caused by the collapse of the Roman empire due to external and internal conflict.

Yup. In fact, it was Christian monks who were PRESERVING Roman and Greek texts (the knowledge that the Renaissance would be built on) that the Germanic tribes running rampant at the time were burning them if they got their hands on them. Also, the lack of technological progress during the so called "Dark Ages" has been greatly exaggerated. I suggest looking up the book "Medieval Machine" to enlighten yourself.

"I drew this chart, which is very factual and scientific because it's a chart. The Y axis represents my emotional feelings on this subject, which is why it contains no actual units of measurement and is labelled with an abstract concept that cannot be quantified. I am so logical and objective. Suck it, religious people."

Tried to find the book, mate. Sounds interesting but it's nowhere to be found.

By Jean Gimpel. 1st result on Amazon.com. Took me literally two seconds. Where were you looking?
http://www.amazon.com/Medieval-Machine-Industrial-Revolution-Middle/dp/0140045147/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1437594147&sr=1-1&keywords=medieval+machines

I know it exists, mate. I'm just not looking to purchase it.

Well in that case you're out of luck, unless your local library has a copy. Books typically cost money, and scholarly works are less frequently pirated online than important stuff like 40k Rulebooks.