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Alright! Congrats on another update for PPC, and thanks especially to Attilla for making it all happen! As a bit of an ocd organizer I am particularly loving the new lists and their clearly marked subdivisions.

Heads up Attilla; Pink Horrors will need some work soon as a blue horror warscroll is being released alongside Silver Tower. It may be worth creating two entries; one for pinks that don't split and a higher priced version for ones that do. I say this because I'm sure a decent number of players will want to keep playing their pink horrors as they are now but the cost difference between having them split or not will be big.

Attilla wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Heads up Attilla; Pink Horrors will need some work soon as a blue horror warscroll is being released alongside Silver Tower. It may be worth creating two entries; one for pinks that don't split and a higher priced version for ones that do. I say this because I'm sure a decent number of players will want to keep playing their pink horrors as they are now but the cost difference between having them split or not will be big.

Now that I've looked at the Blue Horrors warscroll, I think the solution could be quite simple - purchase the blue horrors if you want Pink ones to split, and don't buy any of them if you just want the Pinks as they are. That way Pinks will cost the same as they do now, and the cost for splitting is instead added to the Blue Horror unit.
How does that sound?

This actually gives me an idea; add an option to pink horrors saying "allow models in the unit to split into Blue Horrors for +X points/model" since that maintains both options, and also allows the creation of a separate blue horrors entry if players want to bring them as a normal unit on their own (since that is also an option). This also allows the costs to be different, since blues deployed at the start of the game are obviously worth more than ones which only show up when the pinks die.

As a sidenote, normally I wouldn't suggest 'adding' rules like this (since by-the-scrolls all pink horrors split, not just some of them) but the issue with making all pinks split is that they would increase in price dramatically, causing a problem for players who don't own blues. At any rate, worth adding a note to say that Pink Horrors do not split unless they have the upgrade, but Blue Horrors always do.

I'm saying do not make a cheaper version of the blues; players don't have big units of blues lying around without brimstones to use with them. Players DO have big units of pinks without blues to use with them, thus including the option to have cheaper pinks without splitting. The pink warscrolls is indirectly changed because the blue warscroll says all pinks split, kind-of a tricky situation.

In regards to having blues purchased separately for normal use or splitting; presumably we say that you can't deploy more blues from splitting than you purchased. That creates some practical issues though, like having to keep track of how many blues have been deployed. Also, I don't see players using the splitting option much because its unreliable; I might buy 20 blue horrors only to have a mere 5 pinks killed during the game, making half my cost wasted. It also gives the opponent some control over what gets deployed from your list. Granted all of these are minor issues, but I think it makes the added complexity of distinct list options be worth it.

Maybe keep the normal pink entry as-is, but make two blue entries? One could be for blues that get deployed, while the other could be cheaper 'split-only' blues. Players would still need to keep track of how many blues they deployed but it avoids the other problems.

Ah, ok. It looks like we are on the same page then.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Such flesh
So eaten
Battle-lions costed
Wow

[Death] Abattoir - 115

[Death] Attendants at Court - 285

[Death] Deadwatch - 200

[Death] Ghoul Patrol - 215

[Death] King's Ghouls - 50

[Death] Royal Family - 275 +25 per Haunter, Infernal, or Varghulf Courtier present in the army (note: the army, not the battalion!).

[Death] Royal Menagerie - 75

[Death] Royal Mordants - 65

[Death] Flesh-Eater Court - Free

[edit] I missed a key point when initially pricing the "Attendants at Court" battalion... the new value should better reflect its potency!

Ladies and gentlemen, for too long Project Points Cost has been missing a fundamental keystone of the AoS experience.

NO LONGER!

I am talking, of course, of terrain battalions.

Fortified Manor - 65

Direstone Redoubt - 100

Infernal Realmfort - The contents of your bank account, but 0 pts.

Ironskull Bastion - 75

Magebane Wall - 50

Malefic Dreadhold - Free

Octadic Dreadhold - Free

Skullcoven Forge - Free

Summoner's Hellgate - 35, note the "Summoner's Call" rule is ignored.

Jorthax wrote:
Hey All,

Rather epic battle happened last night, one of our guys was playing the new Ghoul King on Zombie Dragon with "Attendants at Court" battalion

For 75 points he's bringing an extra Courtier on, and then bolstering units in the same phase, this seemed like a LOT of extra points being on the board for just a 75pt

He was playing against a more normal VC list so maybe it was just weak against the army, but I'm interested in the thoughts behind the low cost?

Again as always, many thanks for the continued work everyone

My mistake, I missed the note on "using the same command ability twice" and thought it would merely allow him to use inspiring presence or a scenario-specific ability alongside a courtier summon! I will edit that value immediately!

Attilla wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

Jorthax wrote:
Hey All,

Rather epic battle happened last night, one of our guys was playing the new Ghoul King on Zombie Dragon with "Attendants at Court" battalion

For 75 points he's bringing an extra Courtier on, and then bolstering units in the same phase, this seemed like a LOT of extra points being on the board for just a 75pt

He was playing against a more normal VC list so maybe it was just weak against the army, but I'm interested in the thoughts behind the low cost?

Again as always, many thanks for the continued work everyone

My mistake, I missed the note on "using the same command ability twice" and thought it would merely allow him to use inspiring presence or a scenario-specific ability alongside a courtier summon! I will edit that value immediately!

Good value there, in my mind I got it to 250-300pts so 285 seems spot on

Thanks, I like to think I've gotten better at it after all those costings!

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Loving this Comp so far, but I do have a quick question.

I appreciate the terrain warscrolls being pointed above, and while I may have just missed it.... is "Gardens of Morr" point-costed anywhere?

It's in there; 80 pts but its summoning rule is ignored.

Attilla wrote:

 Jackal wrote:
Might be oversight on my part, but I think there's an entry missing from the tzeentch list.

You have the silver tower gaunt summoner on foot with the 4 familiars.
But GW also have a gaunt summoner on a disc, without the familiars.

All that is listed is the one on foot with the familiars.

Or have I missed something?

Thanks.

It was a tough call, but in the end we put the original Gaunt Summoner in the Undivided list since he "belongs" with Archaon. He really should be in Tzeentch as well, but we didn't want to include the same model twice.

I think it would be a lot better to have both Gaunt Summoners in the Tzeentch list. Think "if I didn't know where it was, where would I look first?" and I believe the answer for most people would be the Tzeentch list, especially those not invested in the fluff.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Thanks 9th. Any chance of an adjusted version that allows for the summoning, with a similarly appropriate point-cost?

It sort of loses its flavor if it doesn't summon skellies... being a mystical grave-yard and all. :-p

While I totally understand where you are coming from, the issue with that and similar terrain features that it becomes an unbalanceable option. For starters, only players with the right models can take advantage of it, meaning the value can swing radically if your opponent can use the summon or not. Secondly, there is no good way to account for how much it is made use of; a player could be getting it to have the vampire leading his skirmish force summon a few extra skellies or a player could be camping a half-dozen basic wizards next to it and abusing the heck out of the ability.

Ultimately if you wanted to use the garden as a structure summoning skeletons, I would recommend using it as a counts-as structure which has garrisons then putting wizards in it for which you purchased the summon ability. Alternatively use it as counts-as Arcane Ruins to buff your summoning wizards.

It ultimately adds up to being more trouble than its worth. In addition to the problems I mentioned above there is balancing it alongside existing summoning, whether or not to change it to points-based summoning, how to manage other terrain features with similar abilities, etc. Terrain warscrolls are supposed to be a fun side-option that we don't normally have in wargames, making them technical kind-of defeats the point.

So I got my hands on the bloodbound battletome, from looking over the battalions I think Gorechosen would be better at 150 pts because it's requirements are somewhat high to justify 180. Also I think Dark Feast is good, but not that good. The thing is anyone running 3 bloodreavers units is simply not going to leave home without a bloodsecrator, which makes the battleshock benefit partly redundant. Also with a bloodsecrator in range the +1 attack from the battalion isn't as good (since they will be rocking 3 already) and the battalion's attack is contingent on the hero being alive. This is on top of bloodreavers being squishy as all hell; even without battleshock they are still 1 wound models with no save at all. I think Dark Feat is more in the 175 pt range because of all that.

Jorthax wrote:
I just had to re-download the zombie dragon on the AoS app... have they tweaked it again? I think it lost one of its D6 dmg attacks? Or am I going crazy.

Hm, for me he still has three attacks with his Maw in the app. So yes, I think you are going crazy

http://imgur.com/v8TJGwA

Please see attached screenshot from my phone. He has 2 Maw attacks.

Hey Attilla, I got my hands on the Stormcast tome as well, only one battalion value needs tweaking IMO; Lords of the Storm. If the mortal wounds were only that it wpuld be different but since they also force a retreat the battalion is worth considerably more. I would suggest 175 +25 per hero beyond the minimum. This may need to be compensated for by a points reduction in the meta-battalions including Lords of the Storm.

Jorthax wrote:
Hey Folks! I'm here to be a pain again sorry!

So first battle of our Friday night session, few vodkas, few dead ogres... you know the drill!

One of our resident VC players has a really nasty list. Neferata + Mournghoul = -2 AoE to hit , or -3 if you have 6 bravery like some ogres. He throws in some bat swarms just to make sure shooting is not hitting anything, ever.

Does this seem costed right, or should we not be stacking it? Sorry if this is in the wrong place.

Its not a pain at all! This is the sort of feedback that improves PPC.

At any rate to answer the question, hit-penalty stacking is one of the major loop-holes in PPC that allows overpowered armies. Personally I think PPC should house rule that 6s always hit (much like 1s always miss) to counter this, but otherwise there isn't much to do. The problem is increasing the cost of those units would make them too expensive if taken on their own.

Side note: Firebellies are the counter you are looking for. Their breath isn't an attack, nor are fire cloak/arcane bolt spells!

So, I was thinking about PPC's house rules today and was wondering if there are elements that could be improved. Despite my initial position on the topic way back when I've been well convinced that less rules changes are more or less good. I was thinking about the auto-fail of spells and charges on double-1s and wondering if it was a good idea. While attacks/saves are one thing, even an auto-pass spell/charge would still need to be rolled for dispel/distance purposes and I don't think allowing for units to guarantee success on a charge or cheap spell is game-breaking at all. Similarly I am not aware of significant issues that could be caused by re-rolling initiative (though I don't play with initiative rolling so a bit unsure).

Somewhat counter to the above, I think it may be worthwhile to add a house-rule that 6's to hit/wound always succeed. This is to prevent auto-miss situations which are very possible using certain combinations. Edit - Rethought this and I retract my statement.

Finally, on a similar topic I am thinking about summoning. While the consolidation of summoning spells into a single variable casting one was certainly good I think it doesn't quite do the trick on its own. This is because anything over 200 pts with summon rules effectively has them eliminated in PPC. While this is not a huge number of models I feel like something should be worked in to accommodate bigger summons. My suggestion is to add this as an extra entry next to the summoning spell in relevant faction lists;

Monstrous Summons - Variable Points
A model or unit with a cost greater than 200 pts can be summoned using the 10+ casting value of [Relevant Spell] but must be partly paid for ahead of time. In such a case, the unit costs 200 pts less to be included in the army, but can only be deployed via summoning and can only be summoned once (though you are free to purchase multiples to allow for multiple summonings).

So something else just cropped up; it looks like GWs rules includes a rule that extra attacks do not themselves generate extra attacks. I think PPC's best route forward is to make it an 'upgrade' to GW's points (which, as predicted, look to be rough estimates rather than precision costings) which would mean matching their rules where we can. There are two other rules we've seen so far; hit/wound/saves fail on a natural 1 (same as PPC - though worth noting charges/spellcasts aren't included), and and that a given spell can only be cast once per phase rather than once per wizard; so if you have two wizards you could not have them both cast arcane bolt for example; only one of them could. I'm not sure how I feel about the latter but it may be worth adding that just to make PPC as accessible as possible for players coming from GW-points (and I don't think it would really affect the values for the vast majority of wizards).

Any thoughts on this or the above?

Well I was looking at the points and the balance is... well less than perfect. I think PPC is still very distinct in that manner. Actually I am thinking this could be great for PPC in terms of defining it's niche. Rather than a stand alone comp, PPC comp can be an 'upgrade' to the GHB that goes one step further by keeping most of the rules but enhancing the point costs & options (GHB seems to lack FW points, Silver Tower, and several battalions alongside PPC's unique terrain warscrolls option). This way the GHB becomes a sort of gateway drug for those players that want what PPC offers. Naturally it won't be for everyone, but things were already that way.

Jorthax wrote:
I've never been happy with summoning. I'm a firm believer that a 2000pt battle should be 2000pts vs. 2000pts not 1900+summoning spell , which can end up with perfect casting as +1000pts or on a bad day +0pts. I would like my two VC friends to be able to tap into that playstyle. Maybe changing it completely to infiltrating and pay up front? Appear any hero phase of choosing?

Interested to hear your new house rule Attila. If you want more playtesters we have 2 VC's desperate for a working methodology

I'm still not sure on GW points costs when units scale (Vulkites for 80 for example) I much prefer PPCs scaling costs and hope to continue to use those.

Color me interested about this new summoning system - I am looking forward to seeing what Attilla comes up with. And seconded on the scaling points costs, the lack of this holds many comps back in my eyes.

Either way, I have faith in you guys. I don't think we'd be playing AOS without PPC.

Don't forget that you've helped PPC too! Anyone who offers feedback has.

I've gotten a change to skim through the General's Handbook. General impressions of the book aside (awesome) it naturally gave me some more thoughts on compatibility with PPC. The basic matched play setup they have set up is pretty good - while it preserves the 'take anything' option basic AoS it also provides incentives for restricting to a Grand Alliance or faction keyword, then it layers on restrictions for unit types which are very easy to stay within. The place where the matched play becomes weak is the points themselves - on top the balance leaving something to be desired it does not include all of the warscroll battalions, forge world (though supposedly that's coming), or the terrain warscroll options. There is also little granularity to speak of; models must be bought in 'batches' and there's no variation for command groups, weapon options, etc. Another weak point is the simplified approach they took to comp summoning; great for the context is but very lacking beyond the basic level. Also the rule limiting a given spell to once per phase seems like it can be quite restrictive yet provides very little in return.

Where does this leave me in regards to PPC? I believe that PPC has its place in the AoS lineup, perhaps more so with the General's Handbook. But I am now very sure that it should line up with Matched Play as much as possible -- an upgrade to the base that refines the point costs and a handful of expanded house rules (b2b measuring, refined summoning, adjusted force org, auto-fail charges/spells (?), adjusting the 'rule of 1' for spellcasting (?), and whatever else is critical to making the points listed work). In regards to force organization I think that PPC should probably stick where its at, but presented as an alternative for players who don't prefer the Handbook's version.

So that's where I'm at. Has anyone else been able to give the Handbook a look? Any thoughts on this? To Attilla, obviously I'm particularly interested to hear your thoughts on the matter since you are the final arbiter of decisions.

Of course, regardless of the direction PPC goes I'll still be playing it!

Attilla wrote:
I haven't taken a look at the new force organisation, but should we really differ from it in PPC?

Well I was thinking that we wouldn't want to invalidate people's army lists that they have been using, but has occurred to me that players can just ignore said restrictions if it's really a problem; AoS has a much more house-rule-friendly mentality to it than most wargames. If the plan is to adopt GHB force organization then I'll need to know ahead of time though, since it will affect battalion values. I'll also be sure to re-evaluate battalions with extra attack stacking so their cost can be reduced appropriately.

Battalions II - The Repointening! I am re-evaluating battalion costs to take into account rules changes and better accommodate the unit requirements. First up is Order!

Spyreheart Warhost - 75 pts, +25 per Phoenix included beyond the minimum. This was a typo on my part.

Alarielle's Heartwood Guard - 135 pts.

Guardians of the Deepwood - 150 pts.

Waystone Pathfinders - 125 pts.

Exiled Blood Cult - 225 pts.

Exiled Warhost - 125 pts. Looks like I overcosted this one pretty badly before, sorry Dark Elf players!

Althran Stormrider's Host - 50 pts. Note the PPC document has his name misspelled.

Dragon Host - 200 pts.

Glittering Host - 125 pts.

Wanderer Host - 75 pts

Defenders of the Realm - 75 pts.

Peasant Militia - 150 pts.

Dispossessed Clan Throng - 165 pts.

Brotherhood of Knights - 125 pts.

State Troop Detachment - 225 pts.

Pilgrimage of Wrath - 75 pts.

Skink Patrol & Shadowstrike Starhost - 185 pts. Note the Starhost allows a Starseer as the leader but the battalions are otherwise identical.

Host Azyric - 75 pts.

Skyborne Slayers - 200 pts.

Devastation Brotherhood - 150 pts.

Grymn's Brotherhood - 315 pts.

Knight's Excelsior Vengeful Storm - 150 pts. I actually think I may have undercosted this one before, and 3 liberator units is not as significant a tax when they can be used for battleline.

Brotherhood of the Great Bolts - 325, +25 per Vexillor included beyond the minimum, +50 per Relictor included beyond the minimum. Increased based on feedback.

Exemplar Chamber - 100 pts.

Harbinger Chamber - 150 pts. Previously missed the synergy between this and the Vanguard Wing's benefits.

Merciless Host - 200 pts.

Thunderstrike Brotherhood - 150 pts.

Vanguard Wing - 125 pts. Re-evaluated and think its worth a bit more.

Also note that points for new Sylvaneth and All-Gates battalions will arrive within the next week.

As always, I am happy to help!

The repointening continues with Chaos:

Bullgor Stampede - 200 pts.

Furious Brayherd - 100 pts.

Wildstalker Brayherd - 125 pts.

Ungor Raiders Ambush - 200 pts.

Bloodstorm - 150 pts.

Brass Stampede - 50 pts.

Dark Feast - 175 pts.

Red Headsman - 85 pts. The Blood Warriors are not as much of a tax now since they fulfill battleline requirements.

Skulltake - 100 pts.

Gorechosen - 150 pts.

Blackshard Warhost - 200 pts.

Blighted Warband - 235 pts.

Blightguard - 200 pts.

Bloab's Swarmbrothers - 225 pts.

Pestilent Clawpack - 275 pts.

Eshin Clawpack - 150 pts.

Moulder Clawpack - 135 pts.

Daemon Cohort of Slaanesh - 175 pts.

Sons of the Maggot Lord - 75 pts.

Daemon Cohort of Tzeentch - 85 pts.

Fatesworn Warband - 200 pts.

Marauder Raiders - 150 pts.

Death!

Charnel Pit Carrion - 215 pts.

Attendants At Court - 125 pts.

Royal Family - 175 pts (this is flat; the GHB restrictions on hero allotment balance it out).

Royal Legion of Chariots - 185 pts.

Tomb Legion - 100 pts.


Destruction!

Great Gitmob - 150 pts.

Great Moonclan - 165 pts.

Beastclaw Avalanche - 225 pts.

Gutbuster Wartribe - 100 pts.

Bonesplittas Big Mob - 235 pts.

Greenskinz Big Mob - 135 pts.

Ironjawz Big Mob - 115 pts.


And Fyreslayers!

Forge Brethren - 200 pts.

Lords of the Lodge - 125 pts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On a separate note, Durthu should be moved from the Elf Legacy document into the legacy section of the Sylvaneth document, and probably get a points buff considering his ability to summon Wyldwoods has more synergy now.

Also, while the Sylvaneth Wyldwood warscroll has not yet been updated in the app, here are the new points costs taking into account the slight changes and more synergy opportunities:

Sylvaneth Wyldwood - 65 pts
-Add up to two additional Wyldwoods for +35 pts each.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The All-Gates unleash the point costs for their battalions!

[Stormcast] Azyrite Hunt-Team - 175 pts. Note this can move units into/out of combat.

[Skaven] Castle Rot-Wreckers - 75 pts.

[Nurgle] Pustrol's Plague Cohort - 135 pts.

[Stormcast/Sylvaneth] Cleansers of the Woods - 185 pts.

[Fyreslayers] Underborers - 115 pts.

[Stormcast] Hammer and Anvil - 85 pts.

[Fyreslayers] Magmadroth Steelburner Pack - 225 pts.

[Tzeentch] Ironguard - 200 pts. Note this can move units into/out of combat.

[Orruks] Gordrakk's Megafist - 250 pts.

[Stormcast] Storm-Strike Team - 200 pts.

[Fyreslayers] Subterranean Fyrestorm - 125 pts.

So a straight feedback note; basic Ogors (Ogre Bulls for those of us who remember the old days) are 115 points for 3, adding additional models for +38 points each, and adding ironfists for +2 pts per model. First off this is really annoying when it comes to listbuilding! Secondly, the difference in cost here between ironfists and dual weapons is pretty much irrelevant when the ironfists are a notably better option (though not significantly so). The mortal wound effect does go away with rend -1, but cover brings that right back and means you deal mortals on a 5+ save if the enemy doesn't have rend. Mystic shield also helps. Accordingly, I think Ogors would be better priced at 105 pts for three, +35 to add new models, and +5 pts/model for ironfists.

And finally we have Sylvaneth battalions!

Free Spirits - 75 pts.

Lords of the Clan - 50 pts.

Household - 100 pts.

Forest Folk - 125 pts.

Outcasts - 85 pts.

Sylvaneth Wargrove - Free

Oakenbrow Wargrove - 185 pts. Note that as per the FAQ models can chose not to swing in melee. Keep this in mind if your opponent attempts to abuse this battalion with a deathstar unit!

Gnarlroot Wargrove - 150 pts, +25 per Treelord Ancient, Branchwych, or Branchwraith included individually (this does not apply to models taken as part of an included battalion). [This battalion's benefits provide a strong incentive to simply take wizards on their own ("Any number of additional Sylvaneth units") rather than including any optional battalions. The point tax allows the base cost to be cheaper so not to penalize the latter option.]

Heartwood Wargrove - 200 pts.

Ironbark Wargrove - 250 pts.

Winterleaf Wargrove - 115 pts.

Dreadwood Wargrove - 185 pts.

Harvestboon Wargrove - 100 pts, +15 per Branchwraith included individually (this does not apply to models taken as part of an included battalion).

Guardians of Alarielle - 275 pts.

Always happy to provide battalion costs!

In regards to Ogors, the trick is that the Ironfists deal mortal wounds, allowing to unit to put damage on high-save enemies they would otherwise have trouble damaging with their no-rend attacks. The synergy with other Ogor units is also worth note, since the basic Ogor Bulls' damage output is less useful in when all the other units are so hard-hitting. Their most likely battlefield role is to be support or objective-holding. But it's ultimately a minor difference and that's just my two cents. I think equal cost is still much better than the 2 pts thing!

Apologies PPC players, for I forgot to point out the new terrain model! But you may cease weeping now, for here is the number you so desperately crave! [/sarcasm]

Crucible - 165 pts.

Haha thanks!

In other news, the Fatesworn Battalion has had its value change due to the GHB FAQ giving us a clear ruling on spell-repeating battalions (they can't).

[edit] Also, I somehow missed the Daemon Cohort of Tzeentch in my repointening! Suffice it to say that the battalion has been nerfed into the ground and the cost has similarly come down a great deal.

Splitting bones and pointing battalions! I am also taking the GHB values into account and matching them if the value is close to what I'd put it at. These battalions are marked with a *.

Kop Rukk* - 100 pts

Snaga Rukk - 75 pts

Brutal Rukk* - 40 pts

Kunnin' Rukk - 150 pts

Teef Rukk - 100 pts. Note that the extra attack round does not need to target the monster...

Savage Warclan - Free

Bonegrinz Warclan - 200 pts

Icebone Warclan - 150 pts.

Drakkfoot Warclan - 125 pts.