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Heads up Attilla, the FAQ is out and some costs may need to be adjusted a bit. Of particular note is the clarification on the Stonehorn (and other wound-halving models) that the wounds dealt are totaled up then divided, meaning 1-damage attacks will indeed be halved.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Heads up Attilla, the FAQ is out and some costs may need to be adjusted a bit. Of particular note is the clarification on the Stonehorn (and other wound-halving models) that the wounds dealt are totaled up then divided, meaning 1-damage attacks will indeed be halved.

Indeed, and since we don't want to change rules unless we have to that rule will go away in the next update. Lucky this FAQ was released in good time for the may update

I've not had very much feedback on battalions yet, except a few on the very expensive ones (bullgor stampede and the tzeentch spell one mostly). But since my own group haven't really used battalions I think it would be better to discuss it here. There was a comment recently that is well written about the stampede, and I told the poster I would re-post it here instead, so here goes:

I understand that some bataillons really boost units and whole armies and therefor an increased point cost seems viable.
However, a bataillons limits the number of choices you can make in building an army. Moreover, it makes some units you would normally only rarely see - like State Troops or Gors and Ungors - stronger so that they can match other units that are mostly played.

To sum up my comment: I think that some bataillons are rated too high point-wise. I would like to take the Beastmen bataillon Bullgor Stampede as an example.

The Bullgor Stampede includes all the Minotaur units in the Beastmen army and they gain impact hits on 4+ and an extra attack through Bloodgreed, which means: 2 extra attacks for every to wound roll of six- which can be improved by one with the Doombull`s command ability. Sounds great and sometimes it is- but not really always. This bataillon gives Bullgors and Ghorgon a massive damage capacity but it is a very dicy issue. Bullgors only hit on 4s with their 2 attacks which means you have to have 6 Bullgors in close combat for the 2 extra attacks- with the Doombull`s ability, 6 Bullgors create 4 extra attacks. So they get 2/3- 4/3 extra wounds with a slight chance of extra attacks. On the other hand they only have a 5+ save making them easy targets for any unit.

This bataillon costs an extra 700 points which is half of the army in a 1500 point game.
I think this is way too much, especially if you compare Bullgors to Chaos Trolls. Chaos Trolls only cost 5 PpM more than Bullgors and 6 Chaostrolls create an extra 3 Attacks without a hero`s command ability. And they vomit and regenerate!

I do not see why bataillons have to cost so many points. They have their strengths but they also have their weaknesses. And I honestly do not see a bataillon that is worth more than 200-250 points. Imagine how many units with how much more punch can be included for 700 points, especially in a Beastmen army.

So I would like to know why some bataillons are so highly priced that you basically have to use an army of half the enemy`s army`s size.
It is a pity that some bataillons are so hard to put up because most of them are very characteristic armies following their fluff.

Any thoughts from dakkadakka users on the subject before we update?

I would expect many are overcosted since we'd all rather see them start high and come down rather than the reverse. The difficulty is that the higher the points, the better a fixed-value battalion becomes because the units within it get bigger, and incorporating a more flexible cost becomes too much of a hassle. They will indeed tend to be less bang for one's buck at 1500 points because they are calculated for games ranging from 1500-2500. Again, many of them do probably need to come down, but something to keep in mind is that some battalions may simply need bigger games to work.

On the the Bullgor Stampede, the issue was not the minotaurs' extra attacks but the ghorgons. With the doombull's command ability his main attack hits on a 3+ then generates two more attacks on a 4+ to wound; statistically infinite. This means there is a high chance of him outright killing absolutely anything he's in combat with regardless of what it is. With that battalion, a Ghorgon could charge Nagash or Archaeon (or both) and kill them before they got a chance to even swing. If the Ghorgon were not in that battalion I'd put it at 200 pts.

To put it all in other words, my response is "I agree, and I'm sorry the Bullgor Stampede has to be high".

[edit] I will put more weight on the requirements of a battalion going forward to bring costs down somewhat.

[editedit] Apologies, I forgot to account for hit rolls, making the attacks not statistically infinite. Instead each blade will end up generating an average of 2 extras and each maw will generate 1 (taking the limit here). This means it will only do an average of about 14 wounds to Archaeon or Nagash when it attacks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Godbeast battalions!

[Stormcast] Brotherhood of the Great Bolts - 300 pts, +35 per Vexillor/Relictor included beyond the minimum.

[Stormcast] Royal Victrians - Free. The requirements of this battalion are immense, to say the least.

[Stormcast] Hallowed Hunt - 185 pts. Note that as the rules stand, the 1d6" of movement can pull units out of combat without needing to retreat, or put them into combat without needing to charge.

[Khorne] Redblade Vanguard - Free. Another case of large requirements justifying the bonus alone.

[Undivided] Infernal Tetrarchy - 225 pts. Instead of using the summoning spell from a daemon's warscroll, use PPC's 'The Grand Invocation' (you do not need to pay additional points for its use in the battalion bonus -- this is already factored into the cost).

[Nurgle] Bloab's Swarmbrothers - 250 pts

[Seraphon] Klaq-Tor's Talons - 135 pts

[Fyreslayers] Guardians of the Great Chain - 165 pts

[Destruction] Sons of Behemat - 125 pts

[Humans] Tauroi Warclan - 50 pts, plus 25 per Warrior Priest and 75 per unit of Flagellants.

[Beastmen] Bloodscorch Wartribe - 175 pts

In other news... Seraphon Battalions! EXTREME!

[Seraphon] Eternal Starhost - 250 pts, this cost a bit more than normal because the requirements are very easy to meet for comparatively powerful bonuses.

[Seraphon] Firelance Starhost - 25 pts

[Seraphon] Shadowstrike Starhost - 200 pts, easy requirements but most of the bonus will be in a one-hit-wonder of deep strike Ripperdactyls

[Seraphon] Sunclaw Starhost - 225 pts, I anticipate people running two small units of Saurus to meet the requirements alongside one gigantic unit to benefit the most from the rend on top of +1 attack.

[Seraphon] Thunderquake Starhost - 200 pts, +100 per Bastiladon included. Note the battalion does not have to include any Bastiladons. I have also edited the Heavenwrath Starhost to include variable costing based on Bastiladons (see the master list in the other PPC thread).

[Seraphon] Starbeast Constellation - Free

[Stormcast] Drakesworn Temple - 150 pts. Its good but geeze you already paid for three of these things...

[Stormcast] Lightning Echelon - 215 pts

[Stormcast] Thunderwave Echelon - 185 pts

[Stormcast] Extremis Chamber - Free.

Here are the new point costs for them new Flesh-Eaters!

Abhorrant Ghoul King
250 pts

Abhorrant Ghoul King on Zombie Dragon
680 pts

Abhorrant Ghoul King on Terrorgheist
730 pts

Varghulf Courtier
320 pts

Crypt Haunter Courtier
230 pts.

Crypt Infernal Courtier
265 pts.

Crypt Ghast Courtier
110 pts

3 Crypt Flayers 165 pts
- Additional Models 55 pts.
- Upgrade to Crypt Infernal 10 pts.

10 Crypt Ghouls
Same as before (8pts/model and 11pts/models for larger units).

3 Crypt Horrors 145 pts
- Additional Models 48 pts.
- Upgrade to Crypt Haunter 10 pts.

Terrorgheist
430 pts

Zombie Dragon
370 pts

@Ninthmusketeer
Did you ever get around to pointcosting the battalions of the Bloodbound and Stormcast Eternals battletomes? I have a vague recollection that you did, but can't find the points anywhere.
That's pretty much what's missing before the may update is complete

Those are the two battletomes not costed out yet because I don't own them. They are the most expensive so I haven't gotten around to purchasing them just yet!

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Those are the two battletomes not costed out yet because I don't own them. They are the most expensive so I haven't gotten around to purchasing them just yet!

Ah ok! I'll give them a value before the update then, and if you ever get the books you can take a look and adjust if you wish

PPC has just been updated to 2016.05!
Please check the blog for all changes.

Alright! Congrats on another update for PPC, and thanks especially to Attilla for making it all happen! As a bit of an ocd organizer I am particularly loving the new lists and their clearly marked subdivisions.

Heads up Attilla; Pink Horrors will need some work soon as a blue horror warscroll is being released alongside Silver Tower. It may be worth creating two entries; one for pinks that don't split and a higher priced version for ones that do. I say this because I'm sure a decent number of players will want to keep playing their pink horrors as they are now but the cost difference between having them split or not will be big.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Heads up Attilla; Pink Horrors will need some work soon as a blue horror warscroll is being released alongside Silver Tower. It may be worth creating two entries; one for pinks that don't split and a higher priced version for ones that do. I say this because I'm sure a decent number of players will want to keep playing their pink horrors as they are now but the cost difference between having them split or not will be big.

Now that I've looked at the Blue Horrors warscroll, I think the solution could be quite simple - purchase the blue horrors if you want Pink ones to split, and don't buy any of them if you just want the Pinks as they are. That way Pinks will cost the same as they do now, and the cost for splitting is instead added to the Blue Horror unit.
How does that sound?

Hey, quick question: Is the Arch-warlock, formerly known as Ikit, considered a named character for this system? He's still listed as Ikit, despite being renamed.

 Swampmist wrote:
Hey, quick question: Is the Arch-warlock, formerly known as Ikit, considered a named character for this system? He's still listed as Ikit, despite being renamed.

Hi!
Hm, where is the Arch-Warlock listed as Ikit? In the v2016.05 on the blog I can't find Ikit at all in the Skaven list, only the Arch for 150 pts.
But to answer, the Arch-Warlock is not considered a named character in PPC.

Attilla wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Heads up Attilla; Pink Horrors will need some work soon as a blue horror warscroll is being released alongside Silver Tower. It may be worth creating two entries; one for pinks that don't split and a higher priced version for ones that do. I say this because I'm sure a decent number of players will want to keep playing their pink horrors as they are now but the cost difference between having them split or not will be big.

Now that I've looked at the Blue Horrors warscroll, I think the solution could be quite simple - purchase the blue horrors if you want Pink ones to split, and don't buy any of them if you just want the Pinks as they are. That way Pinks will cost the same as they do now, and the cost for splitting is instead added to the Blue Horror unit.
How does that sound?

This actually gives me an idea; add an option to pink horrors saying "allow models in the unit to split into Blue Horrors for +X points/model" since that maintains both options, and also allows the creation of a separate blue horrors entry if players want to bring them as a normal unit on their own (since that is also an option). This also allows the costs to be different, since blues deployed at the start of the game are obviously worth more than ones which only show up when the pinks die.

As a sidenote, normally I wouldn't suggest 'adding' rules like this (since by-the-scrolls all pink horrors split, not just some of them) but the issue with making all pinks split is that they would increase in price dramatically, causing a problem for players who don't own blues. At any rate, worth adding a note to say that Pink Horrors do not split unless they have the upgrade, but Blue Horrors always do.

I haven't read any new warscrolls for Pink Horrors, did they get an updated one with the Silver Tower release too?

Because if they didn't I think the easiest option is still to just have the blue horrors purchased as normal - if the player wishes he can have the option of using them as "splits" instead of deploying them normally. In most cases it might not be worth it, but in some cases it would. And it doesn't really cost any extra to have the option.

Making a cheaper variant of the Blues (and Brimstones) are another option as you say, but I feel it might add extra complexity for not many saved points in the end. Is it worth the complexity?

There are point costs for the Silver Tower baddies on the blog now, by the way.

I'm saying do not make a cheaper version of the blues; players don't have big units of blues lying around without brimstones to use with them. Players DO have big units of pinks without blues to use with them, thus including the option to have cheaper pinks without splitting. The pink warscrolls is indirectly changed because the blue warscroll says all pinks split, kind-of a tricky situation.

In regards to having blues purchased separately for normal use or splitting; presumably we say that you can't deploy more blues from splitting than you purchased. That creates some practical issues though, like having to keep track of how many blues have been deployed. Also, I don't see players using the splitting option much because its unreliable; I might buy 20 blue horrors only to have a mere 5 pinks killed during the game, making half my cost wasted. It also gives the opponent some control over what gets deployed from your list. Granted all of these are minor issues, but I think it makes the added complexity of distinct list options be worth it.

Maybe keep the normal pink entry as-is, but make two blue entries? One could be for blues that get deployed, while the other could be cheaper 'split-only' blues. Players would still need to keep track of how many blues they deployed but it avoids the other problems.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

Maybe keep the normal pink entry as-is, but make two blue entries? One could be for blues that get deployed, while the other could be cheaper 'split-only' blues. Players would still need to keep track of how many blues they deployed but it avoids the other problems.

I blame my English for any misunderstandings - this is exactly what I meant in my post above Except not making two separate scrolls, but one with the deployment as an upgrade.
Any changes we make should be made to the Blues because they have the special rule in their scroll.

Ninth wrote:
I might buy 20 blue horrors only to have a mere 5 pinks killed during the game, making half my cost wasted. It also gives the opponent some control over what gets deployed from your list. Granted all of these are minor issues, but I think it makes the added complexity of distinct list options be worth it.

On the other hand, this can also be used to your advantage - if your opponent knows you bought 20 Blues for your Pinks...will he really want to destroy them? If he does, the Blues bursts forward. If he don't, the Pinks will cause havoc without retaliation.

Ah, ok. It looks like we are on the same page then.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Such flesh
So eaten
Battle-lions costed
Wow

[Death] Abattoir - 115

[Death] Attendants at Court - 285

[Death] Deadwatch - 200

[Death] Ghoul Patrol - 215

[Death] King's Ghouls - 50

[Death] Royal Family - 275 +25 per Haunter, Infernal, or Varghulf Courtier present in the army (note: the army, not the battalion!).

[Death] Royal Menagerie - 75

[Death] Royal Mordants - 65

[Death] Flesh-Eater Court - Free

[edit] I missed a key point when initially pricing the "Attendants at Court" battalion... the new value should better reflect its potency!

Ladies and gentlemen, for too long Project Points Cost has been missing a fundamental keystone of the AoS experience.

NO LONGER!

I am talking, of course, of terrain battalions.

Fortified Manor - 65

Direstone Redoubt - 100

Infernal Realmfort - The contents of your bank account, but 0 pts.

Ironskull Bastion - 75

Magebane Wall - 50

Malefic Dreadhold - Free

Octadic Dreadhold - Free

Skullcoven Forge - Free

Summoner's Hellgate - 35, note the "Summoner's Call" rule is ignored.

Hey All,

Rather epic battle happened last night, one of our guys was playing the new Ghoul King on Zombie Dragon with "Attendants at Court" battalion

For 75 points he's bringing an extra Courtier on, and then bolstering units in the same phase, this seemed like a LOT of extra points being on the board for just a 75pt

He was playing against a more normal VC list so maybe it was just weak against the army, but I'm interested in the thoughts behind the low cost?

Again as always, many thanks for the continued work everyone

Jorthax wrote:
Hey All,

Rather epic battle happened last night, one of our guys was playing the new Ghoul King on Zombie Dragon with "Attendants at Court" battalion

For 75 points he's bringing an extra Courtier on, and then bolstering units in the same phase, this seemed like a LOT of extra points being on the board for just a 75pt

He was playing against a more normal VC list so maybe it was just weak against the army, but I'm interested in the thoughts behind the low cost?

Again as always, many thanks for the continued work everyone

I received the Flesh-Eater tome today, and yes, it does seem abit cheap for what it does now that the CMD abilities of the Ghoul King is basically summoning a 100pts+ every hero phase.
I'll wait a few more days before updating the Death list with these new battalions so we can discuss this further.

I believe we need a few Stormcast Battalions changed pointwise as well, due to reports from a recen tournament in Greece so I'll make both updates at the same time.

Ninth wrote:I am talking, of course, of terrain battalions.

Excellent, thanks Ninth!

Jorthax wrote:
Hey All,

Rather epic battle happened last night, one of our guys was playing the new Ghoul King on Zombie Dragon with "Attendants at Court" battalion

For 75 points he's bringing an extra Courtier on, and then bolstering units in the same phase, this seemed like a LOT of extra points being on the board for just a 75pt

He was playing against a more normal VC list so maybe it was just weak against the army, but I'm interested in the thoughts behind the low cost?

Again as always, many thanks for the continued work everyone

My mistake, I missed the note on "using the same command ability twice" and thought it would merely allow him to use inspiring presence or a scenario-specific ability alongside a courtier summon! I will edit that value immediately!

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

Jorthax wrote:
Hey All,

Rather epic battle happened last night, one of our guys was playing the new Ghoul King on Zombie Dragon with "Attendants at Court" battalion

For 75 points he's bringing an extra Courtier on, and then bolstering units in the same phase, this seemed like a LOT of extra points being on the board for just a 75pt

He was playing against a more normal VC list so maybe it was just weak against the army, but I'm interested in the thoughts behind the low cost?

Again as always, many thanks for the continued work everyone

My mistake, I missed the note on "using the same command ability twice" and thought it would merely allow him to use inspiring presence or a scenario-specific ability alongside a courtier summon! I will edit that value immediately!

Good value there, in my mind I got it to 250-300pts so 285 seems spot on

Attilla wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

Jorthax wrote:
Hey All,

Rather epic battle happened last night, one of our guys was playing the new Ghoul King on Zombie Dragon with "Attendants at Court" battalion

For 75 points he's bringing an extra Courtier on, and then bolstering units in the same phase, this seemed like a LOT of extra points being on the board for just a 75pt

He was playing against a more normal VC list so maybe it was just weak against the army, but I'm interested in the thoughts behind the low cost?

Again as always, many thanks for the continued work everyone

My mistake, I missed the note on "using the same command ability twice" and thought it would merely allow him to use inspiring presence or a scenario-specific ability alongside a courtier summon! I will edit that value immediately!

Good value there, in my mind I got it to 250-300pts so 285 seems spot on

Thanks, I like to think I've gotten better at it after all those costings!

Thanks for the quick feedback on that one guys, I think that would have made that battle a draw at the very least.

So awesome to be able to feedback directly to the rule makers!

Might be oversight on my part, but I think there's an entry missing from the tzeentch list.

You have the silver tower gaunt summoner on foot with the 4 familiars.
But GW also have a gaunt summoner on a disc, without the familiars.

All that is listed is the one on foot with the familiars.

Or have I missed something?

Thanks.

 Jackal wrote:
Might be oversight on my part, but I think there's an entry missing from the tzeentch list.

You have the silver tower gaunt summoner on foot with the 4 familiars.
But GW also have a gaunt summoner on a disc, without the familiars.

All that is listed is the one on foot with the familiars.

Or have I missed something?

Thanks.

It was a tough call, but in the end we put the original Gaunt Summoner in the Undivided list since he "belongs" with Archaon. He really should be in Tzeentch as well, but we didn't want to include the same model twice.

Loving this Comp so far, but I do have a quick question.

I appreciate the terrain warscrolls being pointed above, and while I may have just missed it.... is "Gardens of Morr" point-costed anywhere?