PPC - Points for ALL units, upgrades and battalions in Age of Sigmar

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**broxus**

Attilla wrote:
broxus wrote:
One of the biggest points concerns I have reviewed so far with PPC is that Judicators are so cheap. Is there any reason that they are so cheap? The range, rend, damage and ability to snipe heroes as a battleline choice seems very powerful. The other is why are plague drones so expensive when compared to units such as Stormcast Retributors? Overall, it just seems like stormcast are very very cheap compared to most other options. This is coming from someone who has a Stormcast army.

Do you have any events or tournaments that have been recently run on these current points values? I would be very curious to see those results.

Hi Broxus, and thanks for the feedback!
As Ninth has pointed out, I think you might have counted the Judis with X-Bows. A fully kitted Bow Judicator unit sits at 150pts in PPC, and 160pts in GHB, so not much of a difference there I believe.

With the Retributors, please notice its 120pts for 3 of them. A fully kitted out Ret unit will set you back 230 pts in PPC, and 220 pts in GHB. So Rets are actually more expensive in PPC.

The Drones cost 265 pts fully kitted out. Thats a difference of 35 pts compared to the Retributors, and comes from the ability to fly, having twice the movement, and better durability overall. The Drone's banner will drop a few points when the next update hits, so the gap between these units will not even be 35 pts anymore.

Thanks for the response. I see now the Judicators with bows are 150pts and I was looking at X-bows. The bows still seem cheap to me especially since they are battleline, but not like my original glance. The only question I do have is when your pointed the drones did you calculate them with the locus ability in their damage output or without it?

**Attilla**

broxus wrote:
Attilla wrote:
broxus wrote:
One of the biggest points concerns I have reviewed so far with PPC is that Judicators are so cheap. Is there any reason that they are so cheap? The range, rend, damage and ability to snipe heroes as a battleline choice seems very powerful. The other is why are plague drones so expensive when compared to units such as Stormcast Retributors? Overall, it just seems like stormcast are very very cheap compared to most other options. This is coming from someone who has a Stormcast army.

Do you have any events or tournaments that have been recently run on these current points values? I would be very curious to see those results.

Hi Broxus, and thanks for the feedback!
As Ninth has pointed out, I think you might have counted the Judis with X-Bows. A fully kitted Bow Judicator unit sits at 150pts in PPC, and 160pts in GHB, so not much of a difference there I believe.

With the Retributors, please notice its 120pts for 3 of them. A fully kitted out Ret unit will set you back 230 pts in PPC, and 220 pts in GHB. So Rets are actually more expensive in PPC.

The Drones cost 265 pts fully kitted out. Thats a difference of 35 pts compared to the Retributors, and comes from the ability to fly, having twice the movement, and better durability overall. The Drone's banner will drop a few points when the next update hits, so the gap between these units will not even be 35 pts anymore.

Thanks for the response. I see now the Judicators with bows are 150pts and I was looking at X-bows. The bows still seem cheap to me especially since they are battleline, but not like my original glance. The only question I do have is when your pointed the drones did you calculate them with the locus ability in their damage output or without it?

Being battleline is not factored in the Judi cost (since PPC is a year older than GHB battlelines wasn't a thing back then), so when looking at it from that perspective it might warrant a few more points/model. No doubt it's a stable unit for the Stormcast in any way.

All stats and abilities are factored in. The PPC is not just focusing on raw stats. This naturally means there are room for error in the initial costs, and why feedback such as yours is so important to help the project evolving. Then again, the same is true for GHB.

When the GHB was shown to be a true rumour, we had very high hopes for it. Most of these hopes were actually realized, but some were not. We think the balance could be tighter (and believe it is with the PPC), but also that you should be able to add individual models, unit command etc. For these reasons we still develop PPC, and count Ninth as one of the team. But the best would be if GHB v2 came out with an even tighter balance so that we could focus even more on gaming

If you keep looking through the PPC, don't hesitate to write questions here. I've noticed we may not agree on cost of behemoths in general, but I sincerely believe being questioned is only good for a project.

Cheers

**NinthMusketeer**

Changes to the warscrolls to take note of for the next round of point updates!

Kairic Acoytes:
-Minimum unit size 10
-Cursed Glaive changed to 3 per 10
-Scroll of Dark arts added
-Vulcharc added

Ogroid Thaumaturge - Unchanged

Gaunt Summoner - The same as before but without familiars, should probably change the familiars to an upgrade option.

Curseling, Lord of Tzeentch - Name changed to 'Curseling, Eye of Tzeentch'

Tzeentch Chaos Lord on Disc of Tzeentch - Name changed to 'Fatemaster'

Tzaangors:
-Will probably need to be re-evaluated from the ground up
-Great weapons are 2 per 5.
-Mutants option added at 1 per 5 (note they also benefit from +1 to hit from paired weapons)
-Icon bearer added
-Brayhorn added (same as normal beastman brayhorns)
-They got a new 'Savagery Unleashed' rule that gives extra attacks based on unit size, this one significantly increases the potency of this warscroll

Horrors - Blue & Brimstone horrors went to minimum size 10, otherwise no changes

Lord of Change & Kairos:
-Wounds increased to 10, save to 4+
-Improved profile for its weapons & additional options
-Movement is affected by damage instead of claws
-Kairos' dice-change ability can't be used on initiative rolls.

**NinthMusketeer**

While this does not apply to any specific model, something to think about is reducing the cost of special characters with command abilities. Models like Nagash, Glottkin, or Gordrakk no doubt have a decent chunk of their cost due to their awesome command abilities but this comes at the tax of losing the command trait one would get for allegiance. This is a significant benefit to lose outright, and accordingly makes these models less powerful as army leaders since their command ability comes at a cost.

**broxus**

NinthMusketeer wrote:
While this does not apply to any specific model, something to think about is reducing the cost of special characters with command abilities. Models like Nagash, Glottkin, or Gordrakk no doubt have a decent chunk of their cost due to their awesome command abilities but this comes at the tax of losing the command trait one would get for allegiance. This is a significant benefit to lose outright, and accordingly makes these models less powerful as army leaders since their command ability comes at a cost.

Agreed and they cant take upgrades such as book of immortality for example or gain an extra attack/save.

**Attilla**

broxus wrote:
NinthMusketeer wrote:
While this does not apply to any specific model, something to think about is reducing the cost of special characters with command abilities. Models like Nagash, Glottkin, or Gordrakk no doubt have a decent chunk of their cost due to their awesome command abilities but this comes at the tax of losing the command trait one would get for allegiance. This is a significant benefit to lose outright, and accordingly makes these models less powerful as army leaders since their command ability comes at a cost.

Agreed and they cant take upgrades such as book of immortality for example or gain an extra attack/save.

Absolutely correct, and will be adjusted in the update

... which by the way is closing in fast now, so any insights would be appreciated a.s.a.p.

**NinthMusketeer**

I'd say Skarbrand would be more appropriate at 600, the same huge damage potential that makes him so powerful also makes him a magnet for damage, meaning he can easily die before fully realizing that potential. This is of course coupled with him not being able to take an item like a regular Bloodthirster can.

**NinthMusketeer**

Here's the preliminary costs for the new Tzeentch battalions, as well as once change to an old one. As always, please provide any feedback or questions you have!

Daemon Cohort of Tzeentch – 200 (up from 75)
Changehost of Tzeentch - Name altered to just 'Changehost' but otherwise the same at 150.

Warpflame Host* – 100
Multitudinous Host – 100
Aether-Eater Host – 50
Overseer’s Fate-Twisters – 75
Omnisicent Oracles – Free
The Eternal Conflagration – Free
The Hosts Duplicitous – 75
Arcanite Cult – Free
Arcanite Cabal – 150
Alter-Kin Coven* – 100
Witchfyre Coven – 175
Skyshoal Coven – 50
Tzaangor Coven – 125
Cult of the Transient Form – 50
The Pyrofane Cult – 100

*The Warpflame and Alter-Kin battalions are worded vaguely, and I decided to cost them assuming that a given enemy unit will only be rolled for once regardless of how many of your units it is in proximity to.

**Attilla**

Hi,

The PPC has been updated to version 2017.02 now.

Check out the changes here.

Also added some more names to the credits list (Aezeal, boswelbd and broxus). If you don't want to be on this list, just let me know.

**chsic**

Attilla wrote:
Hi,

The PPC has been updated to version 2017.02 now.

Check out the changes here.

Also added some more names to the credits list (Aezeal, boswelbd and broxus). If you don't want to be on this list, just let me know.

Hello, thanks for update. I think it lacks a differentiation for the bonus that the Vulkite Berserker have when they are by 10 or more.
Thanks
Chris

**NinthMusketeer**

The recent GW update to Fyreslayer GHB costs had me thinking about them. I've played a good number of games against Fyreslayers so here's my two cents:

-PPC is spot on with the infantry costs

-The Runefather on Magmadroth and Runeon on Magmadroth cost a little too much. The Runesmiter is fine, because his once-per-game aoe buff is quite strong. That said I am not completely sure on the accuracy of this impression.

-I may have put Lords of the Lodge at too low of a cost, at my flgs we often alternate instead of using rolled initiative so perhaps others can chime in with feedback here.

**NinthMusketeer**

So with the new Stormcast battalion out I've got just a few* battalions to evaluate or re-evaluate, which should take me a few days at least. I'll add them to this post as I go and post an update when I've done them all.

*Somewhere around 40

I've gone through all the older battalions, with the following changes:

Annihilation Brotherhood – Free
Devastation Brotherhood - 50
Drakesworn Temple – Free
Hammerstrike Force – 175
Lords of the Storm – 150
The Merciless Host - Free
Wardens of the Realmgate - 125

And the new battalions:

Aetherstrike Force – 150
Anvils of the Heldenhammer Warrior Chamber - Free
Astral Templars Exemplar Chamber – 75
Celestial Hunting Pack – 50
Celestial Vindicators Warrior Chamber – 150
Celestial Warbringers Harbinger Chamber – 50
Hallowed Knights Warrior Chamber – 100
Hammers of Sigmar Warrior Chamber – 75
Knights Excelsior Examplar Chamber – 100
Storm Vortex Garrison – 100
Storm Heralds – 200
Tempest Lords Harbinger Chamber – 75
Vanguard Angelos Conclave – 100
Vanguard Auxiliary Chamber – 125
Vanguard Justicar Conclave – 150

**Attilla**

NinthMusketeer wrote:
So with the new Stormcast battalion out I've got just a few* battalions to evaluate or re-evaluate, which should take me a few days at least. I'll add them to this post as I go and post an update when I've done them all.

*Somewhere around 40

I've gone through all the older battalions, with the following changes:

Annihilation Brotherhood – Free
Devastation Brotherhood - 50
Drakesworn Temple – Free
Hammerstrike Force – 175
Lords of the Storm – 150
The Merciless Host - Free
Wardens of the Realmgate - 125

I'm so glad you're doing this so I won't have to, Ninth

On the topic of our little fiery friends, we'll take a look at the Berserkers in 10+ units again, as well as the cost of the Runefather and Son on Magmadroths. I'm thinking we can make a small update for just a few select lists at the same time as we update the new stormcasts.

Cheers!

**NinthMusketeer**

So with the recent battletome release Stormcast are now up to 45 battalions, which I know because I just finished going through all of them. As always please give feedback if you can!

**NinthMusketeer**

Fear not fellow PPCers! Despite some delay due to issues with purchasing the battletome in the app, I have arrived now with new & updated battalion costs for Khorne! You may cease weeping now.

Changes:
Bloodstorm – 100
Brass Stampede – 100

New:
Blood Hunt – 75
Bloodthunder Stampede – 100
Charnel Host – 175
Council of Blood – 100
Daemon Legion of Khorne – Free
Gorethunder Cohort – 125
Murderhost – 100
Skullseeker Host – 150
The Bloodlords – Free
The Reapers of Vengeance – Free
Bloodforged – 175
Gore Pilgrims – 200
Slaughterborn – 75
The Goretide – 125
The Skullfiend Tribe – 50

**NinthMusketeer**

And now for the Kharadron Overlords! 100s! 100s everywhere!

Iron Sky Command – 100
Iron Sky Squadron – 100
Grundstock Escourt Wing – 100
Grand Armada – 75
Aetherstrike Force – 100

**Bethorina**

Hi

Have you considered doing command traits and artifacts and spells cards??

**Attilla**

Bethorina wrote:
Hi

Have you considered doing command traits and artifacts and spells cards??

We discussed this when they first appeared, to try and make a better balance between the traits/artefacts. Plus, it was always fun in old Warhammer to kit out your heroes with the magic items back then.
In the end, however, it was decided against it for several reasons - keeping it simple and as close to the original rules as possible were two of them.

**NinthMusketeer**

I think he meant cards rather than points

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kharadron feedback! I'll keep this to just the stuff I feel needs adjusting.

Arkanaut Company - I went back and forth on the skyhook pricing for a while, but in the end I figure the +5 is probably best. The place where skyhooks really shine is with the khemist buff, something that should be covered by an increase on him.

Thunderers - They are currently missing an option for honor bearers. The rifle option is close enough to the fumigator/decksweeper that it probably isn't worth having an upgrade cost. The unit champion would probably be more appropriate at 10 points since he gets two extra shots with a rifle rather than the normal one extra. Aethercannons should probably go to a +5 upgrade, their range isn't going to be a huge issue in this army due to transports and they are particularly well benefited by the Khemist buff. EDIT: Yeah Aethercannons should be a +5 upgrade, they are pretty powerful.

Skywardens: Are lackluster compared to their Endinrigger counterparts. I think at 30 pts/model they would be better. Both these guys and the Endrinriggers have awesome special weapon options, but I think the current +5 points for them is appropriate because both units have to give up really nice melee weapons (and solid ranged ones) to get them.

Endrinriggers: 35-40 pts/each is definitely the right range, I would lean towards 35 each with an added tax on the unit for their repair ability (that is the same regardless of size). My suggestion would be going with a 25 point tax for a total value of 130 pts initial +35 pts/model. On a different note, with their default weapons being so great I actually feel that the volley gun option isn't really an upgrade (it just shifts the model's emphasis towards range) and probably should be free because of that.

Khemist - Probably needs an increase. The buff is really good, the melee debuff is nice, and his shooting isn't shabby at all. EDIT: After further testing I'd say he is more of a 110-140 model, the buff is just exceptionally powerful in this army. And he shoots. And he debuffs enemies in melee.

Brokk - Has his command ability been factored into his cost? If so, I would recommend against it since it generally wont be worth losing a command trait for. The problem is that being able to run and charge is nice, but running would still prevent shooting and this is an army where literally everything shoots.

Arkanaut Frigate - EDIT: I previously thought that the Frigate was worth more than 250 but it has since occurred to me that I was evaluating it based on performance while buffed by an Ironclad. With that factor accounted for I feel the PPC value of 250 is appropriate, maybe 260.

Arkanaut Ironclad - So after several uses, it's good. But I'm not sure its 500 points good, the massive base in particular is somewhat of a disadvantage. That said, I think GW's 440 may be a little cheap, so I would recommend something in-between. Probably 460-480.

The other units are looking pretty well costed so far, but I'll update if that changes!

**NinthMusketeer**

Edited my above post with some more feedback.

**NinthMusketeer**

Added a bit on the Ironclad. My experience so far is largely reinforcing either what I said above or that the PPC value is pretty good as-is.

Edit: Also added a bit on Endrinriggers and a bit more on Skywardens.

**Attilla**

Hey all!

You can now find the newest version (v2017.06) of the PPC army lists and Comp Document here on the blog.

Unfortunately, the text file oontaining the list of changes for v2017.06 was lost - that'll teach me to always keep the list on my Google Drive in the future...

As always, special thanks goes out to NinthMusketeer for all his hard work and suggestions!

Cheers!

**NinthMusketeer**

Sweet. Thanks again for the effort you put into running this project!

**Attilla**

Hi!

With the release of the new General's Handbook for Age of Sigmar, lots and lots of warscrolls have been changed. This will be a massive amount of work fo the PPC, as many of them must be re-calculated from scratch.

Here are PPC points for some of the latest new warscrolls:

Neave Blacktalon
110 pts

Horticulous Slimux
170 pts

5 Grundstok Thunderers
80 pts
• May include up to 15 additional Thunderers for +16 pts /model.
• 4 in every 5 models may be equipped with a different weapon chosen from the following list, for free:
- Aetheric Fumigator for free.
- Decksweeper.
- Aethercannon.
- Grundstok Mortar.
• The unit may be upgraded with the following:
- Gunnery Sergeant for +5 pts (max 1).
- Honour Bearer for +5 pts.
- Drillbill for +5 pts (max 1).

Mourngul
400 pts

Troggoth Hag
425 pts

Squig Gobba
100 pts

Skaven Warlord on Brood Horror
340 pts

Brood Horror
170 pts

Bonegrinder Giant
430 pts

Exalted Greater Daemon of Khorne
600 pts

Exalted Greater Daemon Of Nurgle
490 pts

Exalted Greater Daemon of Slaanesh
560 pts

Exalted Greater Daemon Of Tzeentch
525 pts

There's plenty of time to test these new costs out before we hit the next PPC update!

Cheers!

**NinthMusketeer**

I'll be adding the new battalions shortly, as well as going through old ones to re-evaluate. Also, the compendium battalions have been removed, which is more or less OK since most couldn't be fielded anymore due to unit changes.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Random note; the points for Tzaangors x20 is off (should be 270).

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vostarg Lodge - 75 pts
Greyfyrd Lodge - Free

Fangs of Sotek - 175 pts
Dracothian's Tail - Free...? This one doesn't seem to function at all without an errata.

Bloodtoofs - Free
Ironsunz - 100 pts

**NinthMusketeer**

So I've been thinking on how to make PPC more compatible with GHB2, or in other words making it easier to swap out the points (or play against GHB-users) without causing issues;

-I'll be re-pricing all battalions assuming that 'revived' units cost reinforcement points--GHB2 was clear that they are intended to, making such battalions really just for narrative play. I will also be marking a number of battalions as invalid since they cannot be legally used anymore due to the FAQ that "battalions which contain units which no longer have a warscroll cannot be used in Matched Play".

-The 'realm of X' abilities on the Magma Dragon, Azgorh special character, and any others should probably be assumed as being always off when pointing them. But, have the 'on' version be a listed upgrade so that players can use whichever version is appropriate.

-Fanatics went to 100-per-3 in GHB2. Unlike most units, the minimum size here is a huge deal since their main use is as a charge blocker rather than actual combat capacity. Being able to take 1 at 30 points in PPC is a sizable advantage, which I think goes against the idea of tight-balance that PPC is for. I would suggest 60 points for 1 fanatic, with +20 for each additional one.

-It seems like the average point cost of units might be lower in GHB than PPC; putting them slightly off from each other in terms of scale. PPC may need something along the lines of a blanket 5% discount across all units where possible. Obviously for basic/horde infantry this won't be doable, nor do I think it is particularly needed there. However I have not run any numbers so I could be way off. I know there's a lot of changes to evaluate with GHB2, so maybe something to investigate for a 2018 update?

**NinthMusketeer**

Another idea; when you post that PPC has been updated to GHB2 maybe start another thread? This one is over two years old now!

At any rate, here are all the battalions (edit: done!). Where relevant I added the appropriate allegiance/sub-faction to aid players when listbuilding.

Destruction:

Spoiler:

Death:

Spoiler:

Chaos:

Spoiler:

Order

Spoiler:

**Attilla**

Thanks Ninth! Good stuff as always

It might be a good idead to start a new thread, I'll probably do that once the update is complete. I have plenty more lists to go through, and I'll await your work as well before the next update.

**NinthMusketeer**

All of the battalions are now up, I'll also go through all the terrain warscrolls (and 'battalions') in the next few days.

**NinthMusketeer**

Terrain! I want to emphasize that these are intended to be side options for fun rather than competitive options and so have leaned on the high side for costs. Unfortunately, some features have also gone up considerably due to synergy with models/abilities that didn't exist (or went unnoticed) when I first costed them. (Looking at you, balewind vortex…)

Rules: Any terrain purchased by a player is placed after deployment zones have been determined but before any units have been deployed. The terrain feature must be placed completely within the owning player’s territory without overlapping any other terrain and more than 1” from any objective markers. If there is no room to place the terrain then it is lost, though players may wish to negotiate more favorable terms with their opponent! After being placed terrain becomes neutral and is not considered owned by any player. Models within garrisons are not counted for the purposes of controlling objectives.

Battlefield Terrain.
Arcane Ruins - 100
Baleful Realmgate - 150
Balewind Vortex – 150, note that a Balewind Vortex is not purchased as part of a list but summoned via the appropriate spell (requiring reinforcement points to do so).
Chapel - 150
Deathknell Watch - 200
Dragonfate Dias - 150
Dreadfire Portal - 100
Dreadstone Blight - 125
Eternity Stair - 150
Garden of Morr - 150
Magewrath Throne - 200
Numinous Occulum - 200
Ophidian Archway - 100
Skullvane Manse - 100, +50 for Astral Observatory
Temple of Skulls - 150
Walls & Fences - 25 pts per section, each section may have a signpost for 25 points.
Watchtower - 100
Witchfate Tor - 125

Sylvaneth Wyldwood – 100, +50 per section. Wyldwoods summoned during a game do not cost reinforcement points (the cost of such abilities is already factored into the relevant warscrolls).

Dreadhold
Crucible – 125
Fortress Wall – 75, +25 per section
Malefic Gate – 75
Overlord Bastion – 200
Skull Keep – 125

Battalions
Fortified Manor - 50
Direstone Redoubt – 75
Infernal Realmfort – Free
Ironskull Bastion – 125
Magebane Wall – Free
Malefic Dreadhold – Free
Octadic Dreadhold – Free
Skullcoven Forge – 75
Summoner’s Hellgate - Free