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 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Or you fluke it and get it perfectly right.
However unlikely, that is still a possibility.

It possible. However, is overwhelmingly more likely that I will win every single lottery ever held for the rest of human history. Without buying any tickets.

So at best (if you want to pull that) I'm within 12" on a 4+.

No, we don't use the "I get to cheat on a 4+" rule.

In the real world there comes a point where additional precision isn't required because we can't measure it.

And there's a simple solution to this problem: if you know that you can only "succeed" because of the limits of your measuring ability then you accept that success is not possible. You just say "well, the ruler seems to say that we're within 12", but that's not possible so I must have accidentally nudged the model a bit too close" and move the model back just outside of 12".

No, we don't use the "I get to cheat on a 4+" rule

Part of me hopes you never have to play someone who throws around the cheating accusation at opponents the way you seem to. Of course, the other part of me hopes you do.

Just out of curiosity how far short of 6" do you stop your normal moves? 5 5/16ths? 5 and a half? How much do you build in to prevent your own human hand from shaking that atom over 6" - and I assume you do this for each and every model you move, so you don't play a horde army?

Edit: And for the record, I'd say it's far more likely to get within that 12 inches due to a skill saw cut not being laser straight and square, or forgetting to allow for the width of the blade cut than winning every single lottery ever.

 Peregrine wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
So if you start 48" away, and you move 36", then you're now 12" away.

However, in the real world, where we can't measure with perfect mathematical precision, there are two possible outcomes:

1) You start 48" away, move 35.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999", and are more than 12" away.

or

2) You start 48" away, move 36.00000000000000000000000000000000000000001", and are less than 12" away but have made an illegal move.

Actually, there's a third possible outcome, which is the one where both players accept that measuring with absolute precision is impossible, but assume that if a model started 36" away and moved 36", it's now 36" away from where it started.


If you're going to insist on considering that 00000000000000000000000000000000000000001", I'm going to insist that all of your models are moving illegally each time the universe is completely obliterated and rebuilt at a subatomic level in between one second and the next, and its going to wind up being a short game.


We can sit here and argue about mathematical precision until the cows come home, but at some point you have to stop and remind yourself that it's just a game of toy soldiers.

This is what makes 40k a tabletop game. The models must physically move to their positions. The model's location is the model's physical location, not it's theoretical location as if the game were a computer simulation.

If this were chess, you could clearly state that "my pawn moved exactly 2 squares ahead" and you would be right. But because this is a physical game, the model never moves 36 inches. It's silly to imply that all of the models on the table are in their physical positions, except for the magic, virtual jetbikes that always move perfectly.

To extend this, I could argue that if a model could theoretically be in cover, it is, notwithstanding the fact that I accidentally didn't move it perfectly and it is exposed. If I didn't move it perfectly, that's my bad. It gets shot.

If this were a virtual game we could play on a grid, where the models move and all cover/LOS isues could be calculated, not measured, but that's not the game we play. It's a physical game.

No jetbike has ever moved 36 inches legally.

While it may not literally be possible, it's certainly not unreasonable to allow it.

That's exactly the point, though. Because of the nature of the game, measuring everything with absolute precision is impossible. So for the sake of gameplay, most players allow for a certain amount of wiggle room.

There is no requirement to deliberately move less than you're entitled to in order to account for imprecise measurement. If your opponent is ok with you measuring 36" with your tape, moving the model to the indicated point and assuming that the model moved 36", then that's a legal move, even if the actual distance moved would turn out to be not exactly 36" if you break out the laser callipers and an electron microscope.

 Peregrine wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
So if you start 48" away, and you move 36", then you're now 12" away.

However, in the real world, where we can't measure with perfect mathematical precision, there are two possible outcomes:

1) You start 48" away, move 35.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999", and are more than 12" away.

or

2) You start 48" away, move 36.00000000000000000000000000000000000000001", and are less than 12" away but have made an illegal move.

Is this your argument? Really? After this whole "within isn't within" bs and imaginary lines that have a thickness and everything, THIS is your fething argument? Isn't that kind of embarrassing, having to rely on "I only play with perfect mathematical precision" aka "being TFG"? Good luck with that opinion at one of those imperfect physical tables.

this reminds me of the old "0.999... = 1" debate

http://www.purplemath.com/modules/howcan1.htm

 VorpalBunny74 wrote:
this reminds me of the old "0.999... = 1" debate

http://www.purplemath.com/modules/howcan1.htm

Pretty much - although the notion of having to use 0.999... is where the mistake is so I tried not to argue with "but thats = 1 anyway"

This is why I like the range bands in Dystopian Wars(1"-8", 8.0000001" - 16", etc....). Takes this argument out and makes it moot. 12" is 12. Not more, not less. Measure properly... Easy solution.

 insaniak wrote:
Nope, you have that backwards.

If the table is 48", and you're starting of the table, then you're going to have to move more than 48" to get off the table.

But that opposite edge of the table is within 48". That's why you need to move more than 48" to get off the other side.

(Of course, that's ignoring the rule that moves you off the table as soon as you touch the board edge...)

For the 12" line to not be included in your movement, you're giving that line a thickness. Lines don't have a thickness.

48 - 36 is 12.

So if you start 48" away, and you move 36", then you're now 12" away.

We are not giving the line thickness,

So, no thickness, Imaginary lines just separate areas, Crossing the imaginary no thickness line change you from a zone to the other

Since the 12" line separates deployment zone from not deployment zone and the 0" line separates OFF the table zone from ON the table zone.
And since you CAN'T BE on the table zone side of the 0" line means you CAN'T END on the on the deployment zone side of the 12" (36" from the other side)

Since you start OFF THE TABLE, you end OFF THE DEPLOYMENT ZONE, measure it how exactly you want.

BRB on Deployment Zone wrote:We’ve found that 12" away from the centre line works best

Since you have to deploy 12" away form the centre, you can't be 12" from the centre, the deployment zone starts behing that line, so being at 36"/12" is not part of the deployment zone, and that is the furthest you can move.

EDIT: You are 12" away from his table edge, but that is not part of the deployment zone

Wallur wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
Nope, you have that backwards.

If the table is 48", and you're starting of the table, then you're going to have to move more than 48" to get off the table.

But that opposite edge of the table is within 48". That's why you need to move more than 48" to get off the other side.

(Of course, that's ignoring the rule that moves you off the table as soon as you touch the board edge...)

For the 12" line to not be included in your movement, you're giving that line a thickness. Lines don't have a thickness.

48 - 36 is 12.

So if you start 48" away, and you move 36", then you're now 12" away.

We are not giving the line thickness,

So, no thickness, Imaginary lines just separate areas, Crossing the imaginary no thickness line change you from a zone to the other

Since the 12" line separates deployment zone from not deployment zone and the 0" line separates OFF the table zone from ON the table zone.
And since you CAN'T BE on the table zone side of the 0" line means you CAN'T END on the on the deployment zone side of the 12" (36" from the other side)

Since you start OFF THE TABLE, you end OFF THE DEPLOYMENT ZONE, measure it how exactly you want.

BRB on Deployment Zone wrote:We’ve found that 12" away from the centre line works best

Since you have to deploy 12" away form the centre, you can't be 12" from the centre, the deployment zone starts behing that line, so being at 36"/12" is not part of the deployment zone, and that is the furthest you can move.

EDIT: You are 12" away from his table edge, but that is not part of the deployment zone

12" away from the center. Not MORE THAN 12" away from the center. Your interpretation requires additional words not in the rules to be correct.

greytalon666 wrote:
12" away from the center. Not MORE THAN 12" away from the center. Your interpretation requires additional words not in the rules to be correct

Ok, I'll give you that.


But I still stick to this part.

We are not giving the line thickness,

So, no thickness, Imaginary lines just separate areas, Crossing the imaginary no thickness line change you from a zone to the other

Since the 12" line separates deployment zone from not deployment zone and the 0" line separates OFF the table zone from ON the table zone.
And since you CAN'T BE on the table zone side of the 0" line means you CAN'T END on the on the deployment zone side of the 12" (36" from the other side)

Since you start OFF THE TABLE, you end OFF THE DEPLOYMENT ZONE, measure it how exactly you want.

Wallur wrote:

greytalon666 wrote:
12" away from the center. Not MORE THAN 12" away from the center. Your interpretation requires additional words not in the rules to be correct

Ok, I'll give you that.


But I still stick to this part.

We are not giving the line thickness,

So, no thickness, Imaginary lines just separate areas, Crossing the imaginary no thickness line change you from a zone to the other

Since the 12" line separates deployment zone from not deployment zone and the 0" line separates OFF the table zone from ON the table zone.
And since you CAN'T BE on the table zone side of the 0" line means you CAN'T END on the on the deployment zone side of the 12" (36" from the other side)

Since you start OFF THE TABLE, you end OFF THE DEPLOYMENT ZONE, measure it how exactly you want.

But you start measuring at the edge of the table, not off the table.

nekooni wrote:

Wallur wrote:

greytalon666 wrote:
12" away from the center. Not MORE THAN 12" away from the center. Your interpretation requires additional words not in the rules to be correct

Ok, I'll give you that.


But I still stick to this part.

We are not giving the line thickness,

So, no thickness, Imaginary lines just separate areas, Crossing the imaginary no thickness line change you from a zone to the other

Since the 12" line separates deployment zone from not deployment zone and the 0" line separates OFF the table zone from ON the table zone.
And since you CAN'T BE on the table zone side of the 0" line means you CAN'T END on the on the deployment zone side of the 12" (36" from the other side)

Since you start OFF THE TABLE, you end OFF THE DEPLOYMENT ZONE, measure it how exactly you want.

But you start measuring at the edge of the table, not off the table.

This. Exactly this.

nekooni wrote:
But you start measuring at the edge of the table, not off the table.

But the unit starts OFF, so it ends OFF, saying it ended ON, means it started ON or started OFF and moved slightly more than 36", Both againts rules.

If you start on A (not a single atom can be on B), and have to move across B zone to end on C, and if B is X" long and you move X", you can't completely cross B.

Being:
A- Off The Table (no matter how close to the table you are STILL OFF THE TABLE as said in the BRB)
B- Your Deployment Zone + Neutral Area
C- Enemy Deployment Zone

Wallur wrote:

nekooni wrote:
But you start measuring at the edge of the table, not off the table.

But the unit starts OFF, so it ends OFF, saying it ended ON, means it started ON or started OFF and moved slightly more than 36", Both againts rules.

If you start on A (not a single atom can be on B), and have to move across B zone to end on C, and if B is X" long and you move X", you can't completely cross B.

Being:
A- Off The Table (no matter how close to the table you are STILL OFF THE TABLE as said in the BRB)
B- Your Deployment Zone + Neutral Area
C- Enemy Deployment Zone

The model doesn't need to be in C, it only needs to be at the edge of C. You measure from the edge of A when deploying so it makes sense that your move would end at the edge of C.

Being at the edge of 12" from something means your 'within 12" of' that something.

Zimko wrote:

Wallur wrote:

nekooni wrote:
But you start measuring at the edge of the table, not off the table.

But the unit starts OFF, so it ends OFF, saying it ended ON, means it started ON or started OFF and moved slightly more than 36", Both againts rules.

If you start on A (not a single atom can be on B), and have to move across B zone to end on C, and if B is X" long and you move X", you can't completely cross B.

Being:
A- Off The Table (no matter how close to the table you are STILL OFF THE TABLE as said in the BRB)
B- Your Deployment Zone + Neutral Area
C- Enemy Deployment Zone

The model doesn't need to be in C, it only needs to be at the edge of C. You measure from the edge of A when deploying so it makes sense that your move would end at the edge of C.

Being at the edge of 12" from something means your 'within 12" of' that something.

OK, just checked again, the Objective : "Score 1 Victory Point if one of your scoring units is within 12" of your opponent’s table edge at the end of your turn."
I just kept thinking that you have to be on the enemy deployment zone.

Wallur wrote:

Zimko wrote:

Wallur wrote:

nekooni wrote:
But you start measuring at the edge of the table, not off the table.

But the unit starts OFF, so it ends OFF, saying it ended ON, means it started ON or started OFF and moved slightly more than 36", Both againts rules.

If you start on A (not a single atom can be on B), and have to move across B zone to end on C, and if B is X" long and you move X", you can't completely cross B.

Being:
A- Off The Table (no matter how close to the table you are STILL OFF THE TABLE as said in the BRB)
B- Your Deployment Zone + Neutral Area
C- Enemy Deployment Zone

The model doesn't need to be in C, it only needs to be at the edge of C. You measure from the edge of A when deploying so it makes sense that your move would end at the edge of C.

Being at the edge of 12" from something means your 'within 12" of' that something.

OK, just checked again, the Objective : "Score 1 Victory Point if one of your scoring units is within 12" of your opponent’s table edge at the end of your turn."
I just kept thinking that you have to be on the enemy deployment zone.

Even if it said deployment zone, you would be good to go because of ho, and WHEN, you measure coming on from reserves.

greytalon666 wrote:

Spoiler:

Wallur wrote:

Zimko wrote:

Wallur wrote:

nekooni wrote:
But you start measuring at the edge of the table, not off the table.

But the unit starts OFF, so it ends OFF, saying it ended ON, means it started ON or started OFF and moved slightly more than 36", Both againts rules.

If you start on A (not a single atom can be on B), and have to move across B zone to end on C, and if B is X" long and you move X", you can't completely cross B.

Being:
A- Off The Table (no matter how close to the table you are STILL OFF THE TABLE as said in the BRB)
B- Your Deployment Zone + Neutral Area
C- Enemy Deployment Zone

The model doesn't need to be in C, it only needs to be at the edge of C. You measure from the edge of A when deploying so it makes sense that your move would end at the edge of C.

Being at the edge of 12" from something means your 'within 12" of' that something.

OK, just checked again, the Objective : "Score 1 Victory Point if one of your scoring units is within 12" of your opponent’s table edge at the end of your turn."
I just kept thinking that you have to be on the enemy deployment zone.

Even if it said deployment zone, you would be good to go because of ho, and WHEN, you measure coming on from reserves.

I would keep arguing that, but since it's not the point here, won't.

Wallur wrote:

greytalon666 wrote:

Spoiler:

Wallur wrote:

Zimko wrote:

Wallur wrote:

nekooni wrote:
But you start measuring at the edge of the table, not off the table.

But the unit starts OFF, so it ends OFF, saying it ended ON, means it started ON or started OFF and moved slightly more than 36", Both againts rules.

If you start on A (not a single atom can be on B), and have to move across B zone to end on C, and if B is X" long and you move X", you can't completely cross B.

Being:
A- Off The Table (no matter how close to the table you are STILL OFF THE TABLE as said in the BRB)
B- Your Deployment Zone + Neutral Area
C- Enemy Deployment Zone

The model doesn't need to be in C, it only needs to be at the edge of C. You measure from the edge of A when deploying so it makes sense that your move would end at the edge of C.

Being at the edge of 12" from something means your 'within 12" of' that something.

OK, just checked again, the Objective : "Score 1 Victory Point if one of your scoring units is within 12" of your opponent’s table edge at the end of your turn."
I just kept thinking that you have to be on the enemy deployment zone.

Even if it said deployment zone, you would be good to go because of ho, and WHEN, you measure coming on from reserves.

I would keep arguing that, but since it's not the point here, won't.

Its silly how you agree you can be within 12" of their table edge but outside their deployment zone, despite both imaginary lines being in the same spot on the table.

Ok, tennis was a muddle comparison. How about basketball?

For a 3 pointer to count, you cant' be touching the 3 point line. So if i have to measure to the line/edge/boundary, hitting the line means i've gone too far. To me, there cant' be a location that is within 12" and not over 36". and exactly "on the line" violates both. So up against the deployment zone doesn't satisfy the VP condition, and within 12" is over 36".

 deviantduck wrote:
Ok, tennis was a muddle comparison. How about basketball?

For a 3 pointer to count, you cant' be touching the 3 point line. So if i have to measure to the line/edge/boundary, hitting the line means i've gone too far. To me, there cant' be a location that is within 12" and not over 36". and exactly "on the line" violates both. So up against the deployment zone doesn't satisfy the VP condition, and within 12" is over 36".

Well, good thing we aren't playing basketball and page ten specifies what counts as within.

 deviantduck wrote:
For a 3 pointer to count, you cant' be touching the 3 point line.

That's because the rules for basketball specify that you have to be outside the line.

Which is kind of the opposite of the point you're trying to make.

To me, there cant' be a location that is within 12" and not over 36".

Basic mathematics disagrees with you, however.

48-36=12.

 insaniak wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
To me, there cant' be a location that is within 12" and not over 36".

Basic mathematics disagrees with you, however.

48-36=12.

Well... since the deployment zone line doesn't have a thickness, neither does the edge of the model's base. So how can the edge of the model be over the 36" mark, aka in the deployment zone, and under the 36" mark, aka not in the deployment zone, at the same time?

It's not. A line 36" away from one edge of a 48" board is 12" away from the opposite edge.

Because 48-36=12.

You don't have to be more than 36" away from the edge to be in the deployment zone, because the deployment zone extends out to 12"... and that 12" is the exact same place as 36" from the other side.


You seem to be hung up on the idea that to be within 12" of one edge, it has to be more than 36" from the other, which is just not mathematically true. 'Within 12"' includes exactly 12". A point within 12" of one table edge is also within 36" of the opposite table edge.

 deviantduck wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
To me, there cant' be a location that is within 12" and not over 36".

Basic mathematics disagrees with you, however.

48-36=12.

Well... since the deployment zone line doesn't have a thickness, neither does the edge of the model's base. So how can the edge of the model be over the 36" mark, aka in the deployment zone, and under the 36" mark, aka not in the deployment zone, at the same time?

The edge of the model does not have to be OVER the 36 inches mark, it is sufficient to be ON the mark.

"Over the 36 inches mark" as a range means "distance is less than 36 inches"
"outside the 36 inches mark" as a range means "distance is more than 36 inches"
"on the 36 inches mark" as a range means "distance is within 36 inches" or "distance is no more than 36 inches" or "distance is 36 inches or less" - whichever you prefer, they're all the same.