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Free rules! Wait... nope.

insaniak wrote:

migooo wrote:
...as I understand it there's no money in a game where you collect 16 is figures and you are done ...

'No money' is a stretch. There was plenty of money in Space Hulk, and that didn't require any additional purchase at all. Zombicide appears to be making a crateload of money for CMoN. Hell, Warmahordes lets you play with only a dozen or so figures, which come with their rules in the pack.

Given that GW's apparent focus has for years now been new players rather than vets, all-in-one-box games would make far more sense than games like 40K or AoS, because there's far less work involved in making a sale. No need to explain how armies work, and what sort of models they need... Just hand them a box and ring up the sale.

It's all relative. I'm sure that some companies would think $2 million would be enough revenue for the whole year to be really happy, while other companies need that magic number to be $10 million for the product to be deemed successful. GW has very high expectations for the industry for a product to be selling enough for it to support. I'm sure the WHFB sales that they deemed "practically dead" was still millions of dollars, and more than what a lot of other companies make in a year.

Azreal13 wrote:

migooo wrote:
It wouldn't work really as a board game. SG are dead I think as I understand it there's no money in a game where you collect 16 is figures and you are done and let's not forget GW is trying to pay dividends so no long term money in it or so they think. There's talisman or Dungeon that's quite like Hero Quest.

I'm sure Corvus Belli would disagree that there's no money in games that require 16 figures. I'm sure FFG may have something to say on the matter too.

Self contained board games are hugely popular, as are expansions for those board games. Likely far in excess of true, full blooded, wargames.

Speaking personally, my interest is switching to these sorts of games too, largely because I need to drive to my local club, and drawing up an army list, packing the models, travelling, unpacking the models, humping some boxes of terrain out of storage, setting up a table, playing the game and then doing the whole thing in reverse just isn't justified by the fun I get out of 40K right now.

By contrast, X Wing is very easy to play, we've got an Imperial Assault campaign going every couple of weeks (all played out of the box, no expansions yet) and I'm looking at other games with a smaller scale mainly, or that are self contained.

I'd kill for Bloodbowl, Epic, BFG etc all to come back again, I'd pick them up as a matter of course, whereas I'm struggling to remember the last time I gave GW any money as I type.

I think it's all comes down to long term profitability for GW. They're looking for paths to recurring revenue of players who invest in a game, and keep buying into it, essentially forever. In relative terms, they likely see games like Bloodbowl, Space Hulk, and Advanced HeroQuest as dead ends -- games that cost money to produce, and after an initial launch period are just a stocking pain-in-the-ass.

On the other hand, I totally get that a model/miniature treadmill is not what a lot of people are looking for.

I love going to the board game section of the hobby shop and browsing them -- there are so many cool ones. But I'll confess that I don't buy very many, any more. Was really into them, in my teens, mostly because I had a friend that really enjoyed them too.

Talisman is my favorite game of all time, by the way -- by a long shot!

They will only see them as dead ends if the studio staff aren't up to finding ways of extending them. Plus there's always the opportunity of a new edition every few years to shake things up and rejuvenate sales, it's surprising how receptive people can be to updates if they actually appear to make efforts to refine or improve the game, or take it forward in other ways.

It is testament to how far away the Talysverse is from where I am that you're saying that SGs which would likely provide nice spikes of revenue when released wouldn't interest GW because they wouldn't deliver long term profits. GW are guilty of fairly serious short termism, it is this sort of product that, given past behaviour, shoud be EXACTLY what they are looking at.

Funny thing about a treadmill, whether it is viewed as that, or viewed as regular exciting updates and expansions for a game is almost entirely dependant on the general dispostion of the customer towards the producer.

 Davylove21 wrote:
Free rules! Wait... nope.

Free rules hell yes!

Though in the beginning it will be new spins on existing archetypes.

migooo wrote:

 Davylove21 wrote:
Free rules! Wait... nope.

Free rules hell yes!

Though in the beginning it will be new spins on existing archetypes.

I think what he was referring to was that GW has in the past had free rules - Mordheim, Necromunda, Dark Future - but don't any more.

Or maybe that GW does have free rules - Age of Sigmar... but that they suck.

Could go either way....

The Auld Grump

Is it bad I sent a transcript of this conversation to games workshop?

Doubt I'll get a response but it could help, you never know!

 Formosa wrote:
Is it bad I sent a transcript of this conversation to games workshop?

Doubt I'll get a response but it could help, you never know!

It won't

The people in charge still believe the internet is a fad.

migooo wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Is it bad I sent a transcript of this conversation to games workshop?

Doubt I'll get a response but it could help, you never know!

It won't

The people in charge still believe the internet is a fad.

It IS a fad, I doubt it will last a century!

migooo wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Is it bad I sent a transcript of this conversation to games workshop?

Doubt I'll get a response but it could help, you never know!

It won't

The people in charge still believe the internet is a fad.

Along with Pokemon, RPGs and this Movable Type nonsense that the young people are always on about.

Pah! As if a "printing press" is going to replace good old-fashioned engraving!

Engraving that's heresy, we used chalk on stone walls and using soot was a luxury.

But you know I hear some guys are using reeds on clay tablets that might take of.

 Azreal13 wrote:
They will only see them as dead ends if the studio staff aren't up to finding ways of extending them. Plus there's always the opportunity of a new edition every few years to shake things up and rejuvenate sales, it's surprising how receptive people can be to updates if they actually appear to make efforts to refine or improve the game, or take it forward in other ways.

It is testament to how far away the Talysverse is from where I am that you're saying that SGs which would likely provide nice spikes of revenue when released wouldn't interest GW because they wouldn't deliver long term profits. GW are guilty of fairly serious short termism, it is this sort of product that, given past behaviour, shoud be EXACTLY what they are looking at.

Funny thing about a treadmill, whether it is viewed as that, or viewed as regular exciting updates and expansions for a game is almost entirely dependant on the general dispostion of the customer towards the producer.

I actually see the model treadmill as an exciting stream of updates that come at a pretty consistent speed. It's just like.. modelling... exercise To me the GW cycle of Rumor/News/Release is strangely intoxicating. Unless it's Chaos stuff (literally the only faction I care nothing about), I avidly scour the interwebz for hints as to where GW is going.

I think SGs do provide a nice spike of revenue -- but it's such a relative term, right? Like, what's $5 million or $10 million? Is that enough to justify producing a game that diverts talent away from core products? Is it worthwhile to stick 30 games produced over 15 years on a shelf? Or do you take the same space and put 120 (smaller) boxes of stuff on the shelf of products for your core game?

If GW has the choice of making $5 million from a SG or $5 million from a 40k kit, I think they'll take the 40k product any day of the week, because the primary lifespan of that plastic kit is probably going to be like, 20 years; whereas an SG will get a nice spike and then taper off into obscurity (but still require as much shelf space). While GW is often looking for short-term gains, it's always in the context of a long-term product. Like, spike now is nice, but the product will be relevant for a long time to come. With the cost of mold tooling, they don't have much of a choice.

There is also the issue of followup and expansion purchases. Of course, expansions are possible, but historically, SGs have a relatively small number of expansions. GW would much rather you buy into (get hooked on) something that has a lifetime spend with the potential of thousands or tens of thousands of dollars (and no doubt neat 6 figures for some people).

BTW, I'm not saying that I'm RIGHT (or that GW's course is the most profitable). I'm just posing a hypothesis as to why GW isn't producing SG games, or even selling their own successful ones. If you have a different theory, I'm happy to hear the reasoning from the Azverse

 Talys wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
They will only see them as dead ends if the studio staff aren't up to finding ways of extending them. Plus there's always the opportunity of a new edition every few years to shake things up and rejuvenate sales, it's surprising how receptive people can be to updates if they actually appear to make efforts to refine or improve the game, or take it forward in other ways.

It is testament to how far away the Talysverse is from where I am that you're saying that SGs which would likely provide nice spikes of revenue when released wouldn't interest GW because they wouldn't deliver long term profits. GW are guilty of fairly serious short termism, it is this sort of product that, given past behaviour, shoud be EXACTLY what they are looking at.

Funny thing about a treadmill, whether it is viewed as that, or viewed as regular exciting updates and expansions for a game is almost entirely dependant on the general dispostion of the customer towards the producer.

I actually see the model treadmill as an exciting stream of updates that come at a pretty consistent speed. It's just like.. modelling... exercise To me the GW cycle of Rumor/News/Release is strangely intoxicating. Unless it's Chaos stuff (literally the only faction I care nothing about), I avidly scour the interwebz for hints as to where GW is going.

Azreal13 wrote:Funny thing about a treadmill, whether it is viewed as that, or viewed as regular exciting updates and expansions for a game is almost entirely dependant on the general dispostion of the customer towards the producer.

I think SGs do provide a nice spike of revenue -- but it's such a relative term, right? Like, what's $5 million or $10 million? Is that enough to justify producing a game that diverts talent away from core products? Is it worthwhile to stick 30 games produced over 15 years on a shelf? Or do you take the same space and put 120 (smaller) boxes of stuff on the shelf of products for your core game?


If GW has the choice of making $5 million from a SG or $5 million from a 40k kit, I think they'll take the 40k product any day of the week, because the primary lifespan of that plastic kit is probably going to be like, 20 years; whereas an SG will get a nice spike and then taper off into obscurity (but still require as much shelf space). While GW is often looking for short-term gains, it's always in the context of a long-term product. Like, spike now is nice, but the product will be relevant for a long time to come. With the cost of mold tooling, they don't have much of a choice.

There is also the issue of followup and expansion purchases. Of course, expansions are possible, but historically, SGs have a relatively small number of expansions. GW would much rather you buy into (get hooked on) something that has a lifetime spend with the potential of thousands or tens of thousands of dollars (and no doubt neat 6 figures for some people).

$10m is a substantial spike, one I'm sure GW would gladly take, and they never stocked all the SGs at once, there was an annual release, followed by expansions and supplements (with much fanfare in WD) before it quietly slipped to the back of the queue in time for the next one in the cycle. The games already exist, they don't need a massive investment of time, just some spit and polish, at this point, I'm not even sure people would care if it was the old models (and plenty would have no idea they were old models.)