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Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Show me rules for carried in the brb that talks about models that are carried don't move please.

The burden to show a rule that equates "carried" with "move models" is on you.

col_impact wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Show me rules for carried in the brb that talks about models that are carried don't move please.

The burden to show a rule that equates "carried" with "move models" is on you.

No, see you can't show me a rule supporting it, or even showing it exists. So it doesn't exist. Which means it been moved. Unless you can provide it..

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Show me rules for carried in the brb that talks about models that are carried don't move please.

The burden to show a rule that equates "carried" with "move models" is on you.

No, see you can't show me a rule supporting it, or even showing it exists. So it doesn't exist. Which means it been moved. Unless you can provide it..

No. My argument wins out unless it can be shown by some rule that "carried" equates to "moving models."

col_impact wrote:
Sorry. Moving happens at specific times and cicumstances. If something is clearly idenitified as "carried" then it's up to you to prove with rules and rule logic that "carried" is the same as moving.

There is no need to prove that 'carried' is the same as 'moving'.

We can tell that the model is moving, on account of how it is moving.

Is there a rule that permits the player to thump his fist during the shooting phase to move models?

Nope. There is also no rule that permits players to breathe, scratch themselves, or carry out any other action that has no effect on gameplay.

Your claim is that movement that does not follow the process outlined in the movement phase does not constitute movement. As such, anything that results in the model moving outside that process would similarly not constitute moving. Players could, in fact, choose to pick models up at any point outside the movement phase and put them anywhere else on the board, and those models would not be considered to have moved because they did not follow the process that you claim defines what does and doesn't constitute 'movement'.

You are struggling with understanding Tidewall since you keep confusing nongame definitions of movement with game definitions of movement.

There is no struggle. I've been playing 40K for more than 20 years now, which is more than long enough to notice that GW don't use keywords the way you want them to be applied here.

Model move in the movement phase using the rules found in that section of the rulebook and modified by either the terrain rules or the unit type rules.

Any, lets call it displacement(since the word movement is so contentious in this issue), of the models physical location outside of those rules is not movement within the rules.

A unit inside of a transport does not have to test for dangerous terrain as the transport moves through it(if the actual unit was moving they would, they merely "count as" moving in the shooting phase).

Artillery is forbidden from moving without 1 crew/gun but an ork big guns unit on the tidewall as it moves can still have the wall move with 3 guns and 1 or 2 crew(because the unit itself is not moving, they can't due to both rules).

A unit that moves up onto the wall prevents the wall from moving(units on the wall when the wall moves cannot move that phase; same as trying to fire a weapon, at all for non-vehicles or at full bs for vehicles, before firing an ordnance weapon).

 insaniak wrote:

Is there a rule that permits the player to thump his fist during the shooting phase to move models?

Nope. There is also no rule that permits players to breathe, scratch themselves, or carry out any other action that has no effect on gameplay.

Your claim is that movement that does not follow the process outlined in the movement phase does not constitute movement. As such, anything that results in the model moving outside that process would similarly not constitute moving. Players could, in fact, choose to pick models up at any point outside the movement phase and put them anywhere else on the board, and those models would not be considered to have moved because they did not follow the process that you claim defines what does and doesn't constitute 'movement'.

No that does not follow from my argument. Players follow rules and perform actions that are permitted according to game definitions and game play.

The scenario you describe is an illegal action that is simply not permitted in the rules. A player that breaks the rules in the fashion you describe would have to remedy the game state.

The game has to designate something as moving for it be moving.

You are confusing game definitions with common definitions. The game does not permit me to shoot rubber bands at my opponent's models when we are in the shooting phase.

col_impact wrote:
The game has to designate something as moving for it be moving..

And that's where I thikn we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

 insaniak wrote:

col_impact wrote:
The game has to designate something as moving for it be moving..

And that's where I thikn we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

That's cool. That just means my RAW argument stands uncontested by anything in the rules.

By following the rules and adhering to game definitions, we can conclude that models that ride on a Tidewall do not count as moving.

Sure, you can conclude that.

Whether or not that conclusion is correct is going to depend on how you define movement. Hence the 'agree to disagree' part.


I would put this one very firmly in the 'discuss with your opponent before the game' category.

 insaniak wrote:

We can tell that the model is moving, on account of how it is moving.

The rules for moving require us to select a unit then move it up to its max movement distance. We must complete that movement before moving to another unit. If we are moving the Tidewall, we cannot be moving the SS.

Fragile wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

We can tell that the model is moving, on account of how it is moving.

The rules for moving require us to select a unit then move it up to its max movement distance. We must complete that movement before moving to another unit. If we are moving the Tidewall, we cannot be moving the SS.

units can move outside of the movement phase. (e.g.- fallbkack, various psychic powers, as result of certain attacks/special rules that either the unit moving has/or an unit targeting the unit moving has)

The SS cannot even fit on the tidewall, so it is moving in relation to the table when the tidewall moves. This brings into question many issues:

You are only given permission to actively move your models in relation to the table during your movement(generally) if the tidewall is "carrying" a stormsurge that is on it as well as the table, the SS is moving as per the movement rules- which is not allowed to do as it is not selected to move- this means you are breaking the rules. This puts the RAW in a situation where if you have a SS on it, you may not move the tidewall-because moving it causes you to move another model along the table- it is not entirel(not even half..) on the tidewall, and you did not select that unit to move so you have no permission to move it.

the tidewall has 0 RAW stating models on it do not count as moving during the movement phase.

Each and every example of models moving outside of the movement phase specifies that those models move, are moved, count as moving/having moved, etc.

There are currently no rules other than the tidewall that displaces a model to a new location on the table that does not have them move.

The tidewall is New, and a new situation.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Each and every example of models moving outside of the movement phase specifies that those models move, are moved, count as moving/having moved, etc.

There are currently no rules other than the tidewall that displaces a model to a new location on the table that does not have them move.

The tidewall is New, and a new situation.

it is new.

It also introduces a new thing called "Carried" which does not exist and is poorly defined.

we know that carried models may not move, does this mean they do not count as moving during the movement phase? This is not stated or granted permission anywhere.

other ways that move models outside of the movement phase directly move the models, when a tidewall moves and the models are "carried" you are not directly moving the models by nominating and stating how far they go within the movement they are allowed to make, this does not mean the models are not moved- nothing states they are not moved. In fact we are only told they get to count as stationary[not moving RAI] for firing. Firing, typically happens in the shooting phase. Nothing states they get to count as stationary, or similar wording, for outside of firing. Movement in the movement phase is outside of firing.

We know that they moved relative to where they were on the board, as the tidewall moving is also moving where they were in relation to the open ground the tidewall is moving on.

we know that a SS does not fit on a tidewall, therefore moving t he tidewall with a SS on it is ALWAYS causing the SS to move across the board as well as being carried by the tidewall. There is no rules permission for this in the BRB or the tidewall rules.

We can discuss RAI, because there is no RAW about whether models on the tidewall count as moving or not. There is also no RAW for how to treat models that cannot fit their base completely on the tidewall- as they do move relative to the open ground beneath the tidewall if the tidewall is allowed to move with them on it.

No such thing as "carried", nor does Tidewall imply that this new rule exists. If you want to argue that, you should be in the forum to propose new rules.

The tide wall's movement restricts those on it from moving in the movement phase as well. I'd say it's all pretty straight forward as written. The only time an object or model cannot be moved by the tide wall (aka the magic carpet) is if it states explicitly that it may not move under any circumstances. Great examples of this are to be found in the Storm Surge's stabilizers, or an immobilized vehicle (the original poster was nice enough to give some examples on page one) where it IS legal is where a unit must remain stationary in the movement phase, because the tidewall explicitly states that any models/units on it count as being stationary. So the Firewarrior deployed turrets are completely fine. And of course any shooting that requires you to remain stationary to fire at full ballistic skill will function at full ballistic skill.

Is there something additional here that we're trying to figure out? Other then whining at each other about made up rules?

Mobile Defence Position:If you take a Tidewall XYZ as part of your army, you may move it up to 6" in the Movement phase. It cannot move if there are any enemy models on it, and may only carry friendly models if all members of their unit are on the Tidewall XYZ.

Pretty sure it says carry in the rules.

It says the word carry, not an actual rule called carry. Nothing to argue about, open up a dictionary and learn what the word means if you're still confused.

GreyDragoon wrote:
No such thing as "carried", nor does Tidewall imply that this new rule exists. If you want to argue that, you should be in the forum to propose new rules.

The tide wall's movement restricts those on it from moving in the movement phase as well. I'd say it's all pretty straight forward as written. The only time an object or model cannot be moved by the tide wall (aka the magic carpet) is if it states explicitly that it may not move under any circumstances. Great examples of this are to be found in the Storm Surge's stabilizers, or an immobilized vehicle (the original poster was nice enough to give some examples on page one) where it IS legal is where a unit must remain stationary in the movement phase, because the tidewall explicitly states that any models/units on it count as being stationary. So the Firewarrior deployed turrets are completely fine. And of course any shooting that requires you to remain stationary to fire at full ballistic skill will function at full ballistic skill.

Is there something additional here that we're trying to figure out? Other then whining at each other about made up rules?

In the center bit you are making up an arbitray distinction between "cannot move this phase", "cannot move", and "cannot move under any circumstances" in relation to the tidewall moving with models on it.

You are saying the first 2 are ok, but the 3rd is not; which is inconsistent. They are either all ok and being carried by the moving tidewall is not moving(and therefore half the rule actually functions); or none of them are and the writers wasted ink for half the rule.

GreyDragoon wrote:
It says the word carry, not an actual rule called carry. Nothing to argue about, open up a dictionary and learn what the word means if you're still confused.

Trust me, you do not want to go down the dictionary route, as every meaning of "carry" (which makes sense in this situation) all have to do with moving things.

Going back to the OP

I'd definitely throw this into the ask your TO/game group/opponent first before playing.

Its too bad this list is getting longer and longer.

-Bloodthirster changing flight modes on turn it DS
-Ravenwing libby leading ravenwing strike force
-etc

 insaniak wrote:
Your claim is that movement that does not follow the process outlined in the movement phase does not constitute movement. As such, anything that results in the model moving outside that process would similarly not constitute moving. Players could, in fact, choose to pick models up at any point outside the movement phase and put them anywhere else on the board, and those models would not be considered to have moved because they did not follow the process that you claim defines what does and doesn't constitute 'movement'.

Hrm, so it is your professional opinion that one cannot Deep Strike immobile creatures, since it counts as having moved? Furthermore, one is completely unable to teleport them across the field using Gate of Infinity to carry them?

 Arkaine wrote:
Hrm, so it is your professional opinion that one cannot Deep Strike immobile creatures, since it counts as having moved?

That would depend on the specific unit and its rules.

Space Marine Drop Pods, for example, are immobile units that can Deep Strike... but they don't actually become immobile until after they arrive.

I'm not sure how many other units there are in the game that can Deep Strike these days.

Furthermore, one is completely unable to teleport them across the field using Gate of Infinity to carry them?

Ruleswise, no, I don't think that would be legal.

I would allow it, though. The chances of it actually being a useful tactic are fairly slim.

blaktoof wrote:

Fragile wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

We can tell that the model is moving, on account of how it is moving.

The rules for moving require us to select a unit then move it up to its max movement distance. We must complete that movement before moving to another unit. If we are moving the Tidewall, we cannot be moving the SS.

units can move outside of the movement phase. (e.g.- fallbkack, various psychic powers, as result of certain attacks/special rules that either the unit moving has/or an unit targeting the unit moving has)

The SS cannot even fit on the tidewall, so it is moving in relation to the table when the tidewall moves. This brings into question many issues:

Whether it can fit is really moot, we argue a few things that currently are impossible in the game. (mostly for the sake of argument.) However, I know at least one person personally that would demand WMS since its terrain.

You are only given permission to actively move your models in relation to the table during your movement(generally) if the tidewall is "carrying" a stormsurge that is on it as well as the table, the SS is moving as per the movement rules-

I have shown that it is not. You are forbidden to move the SS at the same time you are moving another unit. Therefore if the Tidewall is moving, the SS cannot be "moving" by definition.

This puts the RAW in a situation where if you have a SS on it, you may not move the tidewall-because moving it causes you to move another model along the table- it is not entirel(not even half..) on the tidewall, and you did not select that unit to move so you have no permission to move it.

Show anywhere in the movement rules where the underlined is written.

Fragile wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
This puts the RAW in a situation where if you have a SS on it, you may not move the tidewall-because moving it causes you to move another model along the table- it is not entirel(not even half..) on the tidewall, and you did not select that unit to move so you have no permission to move it.

Show anywhere in the movement rules where the underlined is written.

It's in the Tidewall's movement rules, if you consider models on a Tidewall to be moving.
Here it is:

Mobile Defence Position: If you take a Tidewall XYZ as part of your army, you may move it up to 6" in the Movement phase. It cannot move if there are any enemy models on it, and may only carry friendly models if all members of their unit are on the Tidewall XYZ. Models carried with it are treated as being stationary for the purposes of firing weapons, but cannot move themselves in the same phase. Tidewall XYZs can only move over open ground, and cannot move within 1" of enemy models.

A) that is not in the movement rules(within the core of the game.

B) that can only prove that the models carried are not, themselves, moving(as they simply cannot move when it does)

C) in the case of the storm surge you now have 2 rules stating that it cannot move. But that does not matter because neither gives you any permission to move, just that the stormsurge is carried on the moving terrain(similar situation to if you were able to get a model on top of a vehicle and then move the vehicle (of course you cannot stack models in this way).

What if I take SM allies and deploy my StormSurge on top of the Rhino? Then I could move the Rhino and the StormSurge wouldn't technically be moving!

maceria wrote:
What if I take SM allies and deploy my StormSurge on top of the Rhino? Then I could move the Rhino and the StormSurge wouldn't technically be moving!

Yeah, not quite.

maceria wrote:
What if I take SM allies and deploy my StormSurge on top of the Rhino? Then I could move the Rhino and the StormSurge wouldn't technically be moving!

Not really apples to apples there.

So since we're 4 pages in, would the original poster put "Still discussing for the next 4 pages" as there is still not a concensus on the rule and though I love reading GW Hate and how stupid other's opinions are - it would save some time.

After reading 4 pages, what I have seen is "discuss it with your opponent" and tourney organizers are going to house rule it.

Thanks!

Fragile wrote:

blaktoof wrote:

Fragile wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

We can tell that the model is moving, on account of how it is moving.

The rules for moving require us to select a unit then move it up to its max movement distance. We must complete that movement before moving to another unit. If we are moving the Tidewall, we cannot be moving the SS.

units can move outside of the movement phase. (e.g.- fallbkack, various psychic powers, as result of certain attacks/special rules that either the unit moving has/or an unit targeting the unit moving has)

The SS cannot even fit on the tidewall, so it is moving in relation to the table when the tidewall moves. This brings into question many issues:

Whether it can fit is really moot, we argue a few things that currently are impossible in the game. (mostly for the sake of argument.) However, I know at least one person personally that would demand WMS since its terrain.

You are only given permission to actively move your models in relation to the table during your movement(generally) if the tidewall is "carrying" a stormsurge that is on it as well as the table, the SS is moving as per the movement rules-

I have shown that it is not. You are forbidden to move the SS at the same time you are moving another unit. Therefore if the Tidewall is moving, the SS cannot be "moving" by definition.

This puts the RAW in a situation where if you have a SS on it, you may not move the tidewall-because moving it causes you to move another model along the table- it is not entirel(not even half..) on the tidewall, and you did not select that unit to move so you have no permission to move it.

Show anywhere in the movement rules where the underlined is written.

WMS does not work at all here, because the model cannot fit on the tidewall period, part of it will always be hanging off even if you say "WMS" its base is physically bigger than all the parts of the tidewall. It doesn't work, RAW or RAI. The parts of the models base not on the tidewaill will always be over the playing surface that is not the tidewall.

Movement is defined in the BRB, by nominating a model and then moving it x distance across terrain.

A model on a tidewall that is both on the tidewall and not on the tidewall absolutely is MOVING relative to the terrain for the part of the model that is not on the tidewall. part of the model is still the model, so moving the tidewall in this case does move the model relative to the playing surface that the tidewall is not.

unrelated to all of the above, the tidewall has no RAW permission to count as stationary, or not moving, during the movement phase.

maceria wrote:
What if I take SM allies and deploy my StormSurge on top of the Rhino? Then I could move the Rhino and the StormSurge wouldn't technically be moving!

I appreciate the sarcasm, but it's not the same thing. I believe that Fortifications are the only models that let two models occupy the same 2D position on the gameboard. A Rhino doesn't count as terrain until after it loses the ability to move.

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
So since we're 4 pages in, would the original poster put "Still discussing for the next 4 pages" as there is still not a concensus on the rule and though I love reading GW Hate and how stupid other's opinions are - it would save some time.

After reading 4 pages, what I have seen is "discuss it with your opponent" and tourney organizers are going to house rule it.

Thanks!

Sounds reasonable.

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
After reading 4 pages, what I have seen is "discuss it with your opponent" and tourney organizers are going to house rule it.

That's pretty much it. The relevant points seem to have all been fairly thoroughly hashed out by this point, so I think it's time to move on.