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Bobthehero wrote: You're right, but,I reread the blurb, the Scion explicitly survive ''atmos-burns'' the stratosphere is never mentioned, my mistake.
They use ''little more than carapace armor and ionised body shroud of pressed alloy'' and they also activate their grav chutes after they go through the atmosphere
Is carapace armour or the "ionised body shroud" pressurised?
Also, how did they control the spin of their descent? One of the big risks of the Baumgartner jump was from going into a flat spin, which would force all the blood into his head and feet. When you're in thicker atmosphere it's easy to correct for a skilled skydiver but if you're in very low atmosphere it is a lot harder.
Grav chute magic, I guess or something, its GW, they're not going to go into details like that, they just want to tell the story of people being shoved out the airlock and onto a planet surface.
Bobthehero wrote: Grav chute magic, I guess or something, its GW, they're not going to go into details like that, they just want to tell the story of people being shoved out the airlock and onto a planet surface.
Which should also handily explain whether a Space Marine or Necron Warrior can survive a fall from orbit. If it's a mook no one needs he's dead, if it's the hero of the book he'll survive and quite likely still kick some major butt.
Uh, no. Grav chutes are specific types of backpack-mounted utility items. They aren't just a standard part of power armor.
The average marine does not wear a grav-chute.
Here's one variant of a Grav-Chute, the ones the Elysians use:
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/12/26 01:32:32
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Melissia wrote: And yet plasma is not as good at penetrating armor as melta.
Because meltaguns are even hotter.
And still not hot enough to get through re-entry heat shielding.
We have no reason to believe that heat shielding exists solely for reentry. Also you're using game mechanics to justify anything. 40K's game mechanics are useless abstractions that clearly should only be tossed in the trash and never used in any discussion of the 'reality' of the fictional universe. Game rules at most are a starting point for any deduction to be made, but even that's stretching it.
Hey man, believe what you will. But it is telling that the only Imperial units immune to Melta in the 41st Millenium are orbital interface craft.
mondo80 wrote: So since I'm writing the story, I decide the physics? Cool. the next part would be figuring out the impact crater size. Time to watch some YouTube.
I suppose, it is an alien world so you can make anything up so as to allow a character to survive re-entry. But if you're talking Earth-like and a Space Marine plummets into the ground but gets up like it was just a ten foot drop, then I wouldn't call it a great story, it would sort of encourage "Stormtrooper syndrome" into the W40k fluff, and we already have enough of that.
Since you say Lynchguard I suppose you can make it like he was made of a particularly special necrodermis body and it held him together to go through the atmosphere but he lost his shield.
As for re-entry and power armour, I would say that power armour was designed first and foremost for combat, and in most cases combat doesn't include flying into a planet's atmosphere, where we already have well-developed fluff regarding drop pods and spacecraft. Does the story really demand someone putting into a situation where s/he must endure re-entry and then free-fall without any specialized equipment?
I mean, you guys realize the fact that they can't really survive orbital re-entry is WHY marines use drop pods... right?
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Someone said a fall from 500 ft is the same as one from 20000 ft, could a space marine or tougher fall from that height, survive it and wonder "damn, what does it take to kill me?"
Melissia wrote: And yet plasma is not as good at penetrating armor as melta.
Because meltaguns are even hotter.
And still not hot enough to get through re-entry heat shielding.
We have no reason to believe that heat shielding exists solely for reentry. Also you're using game mechanics to justify anything. 40K's game mechanics are useless abstractions that clearly should only be tossed in the trash and never used in any discussion of the 'reality' of the fictional universe. Game rules at most are a starting point for any deduction to be made, but even that's stretching it.
Hey man, believe what you will. But it is telling that the only Imperial units immune to Melta in the 41st Millenium are orbital interface craft.
Immune to the melta bonus, that is. A single hit still has good odds of blowing said craft up.
Melissia wrote: And yet plasma is not as good at penetrating armor as melta.
Because meltaguns are even hotter.
And still not hot enough to get through re-entry heat shielding.
We have no reason to believe that heat shielding exists solely for reentry. Also you're using game mechanics to justify anything. 40K's game mechanics are useless abstractions that clearly should only be tossed in the trash and never used in any discussion of the 'reality' of the fictional universe. Game rules at most are a starting point for any deduction to be made, but even that's stretching it.
Hey man, believe what you will. But it is telling that the only Imperial units immune to Melta in the 41st Millenium are orbital interface craft.
Or maybe the more likely option is that aircraft where the primary weapon is lascannons decided that the more practical approach to armor was to beef up the cermaics.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
mondo80 wrote: Someone said a fall from 500 ft is the same as one from 20000 ft, could a space marine or tougher fall from that height, survive it and wonder "damn, what does it take to kill me?"
There comes a point where, without any other events in the fall happening, you reach terminal velocity and then it won't matter how far you fall. For a human skydiver, going "belly to earth" in free-fall, it takes about 15 seconds to reach 99% of terminal velocity (it's not a simple measure of distance, because air density changes, which affects drag, which affects reaching terminal velocity). So, in effect, the farther you fall (rather, the greater height you fall from), the slower you end up actually going (though this is a trivial distinction, in the end).
End of the day, it's not the fall that kills you, it's the abrupt stop at the bottom.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
Melissia wrote:Uh, no. Grav chutes are specific types of backpack-mounted utility items. They aren't just a standard part of power armor.
The average marine does not wear a grav-chute.
Here's one variant of a Grav-Chute, the ones the Elysians use:
That's one from an equipment pod, the ones the Elysians themselves wear look more like this;l
_________________
OK, if the Lychguard has a Dispersion Shield, you're looking at a completely different scenario. Dispersion Shield would definitely protect against the head of re-entry, because Dispersion Shields reflect the energy of whatever hits them back outwards in a blast wave. Whatever was under the Lychguard's landing sight would be hit by the full heat of her re-entry and the full force of her descent, except instead of the heat being spread out over the entire length of a fall, it would all hit them at once.
You'd end up with the Lychguard having a feather-soft landing on a cushion of fiery death that pulverises the surface she's landing on. She'd then have to dig her way out of a pit of atomised dust, and be then standing on a planet that may have just had an extinction level event go off at her location, but the Lychguard would be fine.
Oh, and then she'd have to deal with the atmospheric effects of basically pulling a big wedge of cold down from outer space into the super-heated remains of her landing.
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
Bobthehero wrote: Game mechanics are good indication of what s unit can or can't do.
If you're 100% certain that an IG company commander in flak armor can tank substantially more lasgun fire than a SoB in full PA, by all means. I imagine you will find many who disagree.
Ashiraya wrote: Ceramite is notoriously heat-resistant. I am pretty sure he'd survive the re-entry if the armour is intact.
As for the ground impact, it depends on how he lands. On his neck? He's dead. On his feet? A Marine has survived falling through an elevator shaft in the kilometres before. He'll break his legs, but it's merely a setback.
Reading this made me remember something. In "Flesh of Cretacia" there actually is an example of a marine landing after a fall, although not from orbit.
Spoiler:
After an assault squad is forced to abandon their Stormraven, they all jump out. However, one of them quickly realises that his jump pack isn't working, and prepares himself for a rather pathetic death. He ends up surviving, but his jump pack is destroyed beyond repair, his armor is damaged and cracked in some sections, and his arm is broken. Still combat ready due to space marine biology but if a fall like that was enough to nearly kill him, falling from orbit would almost certainly be lethal on impact.
I, uh, messed up, and feel the need to apologize for doing so. Literally the following paragraph after I stopped reading, the space marine looks up at a tree canopy that broke his fall. So it wasn't a pure free fall, and I forgot to mention that he was unconscious for some time after hitting the ground. My bad.
mondo80 wrote: Someone said a fall from 500 ft is the same as one from 20000 ft, could a space marine or tougher fall from that height, survive it and wonder "damn, what does it take to kill me?"
There comes a point where, without any other events in the fall happening, you reach terminal velocity and then it won't matter how far you fall. For a human skydiver, going "belly to earth" in free-fall, it takes about 15 seconds to reach 99% of terminal velocity (it's not a simple measure of distance, because air density changes, which affects drag, which affects reaching terminal velocity). So, in effect, the farther you fall (rather, the greater height you fall from), the slower you end up actually going (though this is a trivial distinction, in the end).
End of the day, it's not the fall that kills you, it's the abrupt stop at the bottom.
Actually, when it comes to orbital re-entry, it IS the fall that kills you.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Bobthehero wrote: Game mechanics are good indication of what s unit can or can't do.
If you're 100% certain that an IG company commander in flak armor can tank substantially more lasgun fire than a SoB in full PA, by all means. I imagine you will find many who disagree.
Beats the physic breaking SM's and other insults to decency, and I said good, perfect, there's still flaws.
Ok, if the Lychguard has a Dispersion Shield, you're looking at a completely different scenario. Dispersion Shield would definitely protect against the head of re-entry, because Dispersion Shields reflect the energy of whatever hits them back outwards in a blast wave. Whatever was under the Lychguard's landing sight would be hit by the full heat of her re-entry and the full force of her descent, except instead of the heat being spread out over the entire length of a fall, it would all hit them at once.
You'd end up with the Lychguard having a feather-soft landing on a cushion of fiery death that pulverises the surface she's landing on. She'd then have to dig her way out of a pit of atomised dust, and be then standing on a planet that may have just had an extinction level event go off at her location, but the Lychguard would be fine.
Oh, and then she'd have to deal with the atmospheric effects of basically pulling a big wedge of cold down from outer space into the super-heated remains of her landing.
Ok this is the kind of thing I'm lookin for. What size of explosion for the shockwave am I looking at? An exploding house, building or this:
You're looking at something akin to the Tunguska event - the falling object is much smaller, but you've got the compression/reflection effect of the shield, as well as the fact it actually hits the ground. There's no video from Tunguska - it was in 1908 - but there are photos and eye witness accounts;
Sibir newspaper, 2 July 1908:[17]
On the 17th of June, around 9 a.m. in the morning, we observed an unusual natural occurrence. In the north Karelinski village [200 verst north of Kirensk] the peasants saw to the north west, rather high above the horizon, some strangely bright (impossible to look at) bluish-white heavenly body, which for 10 minutes moved downwards. The body appeared as a "pipe", i.e., a cylinder. The sky was cloudless, only a small dark cloud was observed in the general direction of the bright body. It was hot and dry. As the body neared the ground (forest), the bright body seemed to smudge, and then turned into a giant billow of black smoke, and a loud knocking (not thunder) was heard, as if large stones were falling, or artillery was fired. All buildings shook. At the same time the cloud began emitting flames of uncertain shapes. All villagers were stricken with panic and took to the streets, women cried, thinking it was the end of the world.
The author of these lines was meantime in the forest about 6 verst [6.4 km] north of Kirensk, and heard to the north east some kind of artillery barrage, that repeated in intervals of 15 minutes at least 10 times. In Kirensk in a few buildings in the walls facing north east window glass shook.
Testimony of S. Semenov, as recorded by Leonid Kulik's expedition in 1930:
At breakfast time I was sitting by the house at Vanavara Trading Post [65 kilometres/40 miles south of the explosion], facing north. [...] I suddenly saw that directly to the north, over Onkoul's Tunguska Road, the sky split in two and fire appeared high and wide over the forest [as Semenov showed, about 50 degrees up—expedition note]. The split in the sky grew larger, and the entire northern side was covered with fire. At that moment I became so hot that I couldn't bear it, as if my shirt was on fire; from the northern side, where the fire was, came strong heat. I wanted to tear off my shirt and throw it down, but then the sky shut closed, and a strong thump sounded, and I was thrown a few metres. I lost my senses for a moment, but then my wife ran out and led me to the house. After that such noise came, as if rocks were falling or cannons were firing, the earth shook, and when I was on the ground, I pressed my head down, fearing rocks would smash it. When the sky opened up, hot wind raced between the houses, like from cannons, which left traces in the ground like pathways, and it damaged some crops. Later we saw that many windows were shattered, and in the barn a part of the iron lock snapped.
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
mondo80 wrote: Someone said a fall from 500 ft is the same as one from 20000 ft, could a space marine or tougher fall from that height, survive it and wonder "damn, what does it take to kill me?"
There comes a point where, without any other events in the fall happening, you reach terminal velocity and then it won't matter how far you fall. For a human skydiver, going "belly to earth" in free-fall, it takes about 15 seconds to reach 99% of terminal velocity (it's not a simple measure of distance, because air density changes, which affects drag, which affects reaching terminal velocity). So, in effect, the farther you fall (rather, the greater height you fall from), the slower you end up actually going (though this is a trivial distinction, in the end).
End of the day, it's not the fall that kills you, it's the abrupt stop at the bottom.
Actually, when it comes to orbital re-entry, it IS the fall that kills you.
Here's Felix Baumgartner performing a free-fall from the stratosphere.
And? The stratosphere is not eevn the third outer layer of the atmosphere. Most meteorites burn up before they ever reach it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/26 23:01:29
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Bobthehero wrote: Game mechanics are good indication of what s unit can or can't do.
If you're 100% certain that an IG company commander in flak armor can tank substantially more lasgun fire than a SoB in full PA, by all means. I imagine you will find many who disagree.
Beats the physic breaking SM's and other insults to decency, and I said good, perfect, there's still flaws.
Ah, so you're saying the parts you agree with are a good indicator for what is true in the fluff and not?
Isn't that the point of 40k fluff tho? You agree with what you like and all that, otherwise you'll have to accept stuff like Gaunt killing SM's with his sword as being cannon, because what's fluffy can't be just the parts you agree with.
Bobthehero wrote: Isn't that the point of 40k fluff tho? You agree with what you like and all that, otherwise you'll have to accept stuff like Gaunt killing SM's with his sword as being cannon
Why wouldn't I be able to accept this? Gaunt is a badass and he has a power sword. Killing a single Space Marine isn't even really a highlight of his career. Space Marines are not unkillable gods upon the battlefield, they are mere mortals. Powerful mortals, but still, mortals. A well trained human can keep up with an Astartes in the lore, and an exceptional human can keep up with exceptional Astartes.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/12/27 00:45:17
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/27 00:49:34
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
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