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 VeteranNoob wrote:
If GW is doing an organized play like WMH that would be worth seeing. GW bringing back some older practices way faster than I expected, I'm hopeful now that before the summer they will bring back Outriders or some form of PrssGanger since from what I hear and see AoS active areas seem to usually have a local community "organizer" or whatever you call that person who organized game nights, test games, weekend events and championing which ever game. While not the case everywhere I think that's quite fair and would be helpful to at the very least try and get some new blood or gamers that still have their Fantasy armies to try AoS out.

Really, anything is possible. Yeah, it would have been great to have had this kind of support at launch but oh we'll.

GW bring back outriders has been a rumor since they ended the program. My buddy was an outrider back in the glory days, he would probley do it again if GW brought the program back.

GW have done a U turn on a number of policies that have been unpopular in the past 10 years. It's at least possible they will U turn on Outriders too.

 Chute82 wrote:

 VeteranNoob wrote:
If GW is doing an organized play like WMH that would be worth seeing. GW bringing back some older practices way faster than I expected, I'm hopeful now that before the summer they will bring back Outriders or some form of PrssGanger since from what I hear and see AoS active areas seem to usually have a local community "organizer" or whatever you call that person who organized game nights, test games, weekend events and championing which ever game. While not the case everywhere I think that's quite fair and would be helpful to at the very least try and get some new blood or gamers that still have their Fantasy armies to try AoS out.

Really, anything is possible. Yeah, it would have been great to have had this kind of support at launch but oh we'll.

GW bring back outriders has been a rumor since they ended the program. My buddy was an outrider back in the glory days, he would probley do it again if GW brought the program back.

Actually, the outriders part is my own addition. Now that you mention it its one of the few things I haven't seen included in a rumor.
I know lots of ex-Outties and they got a bum deal:( press Gangers seem to go well for PP and anything's possibile

 Kilkrazy wrote:
simplified 40K
Space Marines
Sigmarines
flying Sigmarines
Sigmarines
Sigmarines
Sigmarines
Sigmarines
Hammers Siggies

Hey RiTides, you're right!

 judgedoug wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
simplified 40K
Space Marines
Sigmarines
flying Sigmarines
Sigmarines
Sigmarines
Sigmarines
Sigmarines
Hammers Siggies

Hey RiTides, you're right!

We don't have a 'tag' function on dakka, perhaps it would be better in future for you to put things that have no discernible content in PMs to people you want to see them instead. Thanks

 thekingofkings wrote:


yeah, I think that last part is key, GW isnt doing well because their stores are in bad spots, poorly manned, and tiny.

I'm going back to this old quote from the topic to add my two cents.

We need to keep in mind that GW's direction has changed recently and we're starting to see those changes in action just now (reopening of social media interaction, organized play, older game franchises, etc). What you guys said about the stores is true, and here is something:

I'm very close to the GW store's manager in my hometown, and I will most probably work for him in May. That store is layed out this way: a small to medium sized front room with 2 gaming tables and 4 painting desks. There's a storage room in the far back, for stocks, and an other room in the middle, which used to be a gaming room maybe 10 years ago, and which became an unused garbage dump in dire need of repairs that HQ forbid the managers to use anymore because stores were not meant to be community places, but toy stores.

Two weeks ago, the manager said this to me: "We're re-opening the back room, we got a new budget for it and no restrictive guidelines, do you have ideas what to do with it, I'm thinking a tournament room."
I gave him a few ideas of my own, including large figurines displays and dioramas, and even a reading corner, which is the only one he dismissed.

Anyway, I think we can assume all GW politics are going to change however slow it is, and while AoS might be the child of poor corporate decisions, GW seems to be heading towards the right direction again, and under that condition, I am absolutely convinced AoS will come out as a success.

That's good for the stores with closed rooms. There are a lot more stores that moved into tiny units with no expansion options. I'd estimate that no more than 1 in 10 have room to expand to their former size without moving (and no doubt breaking leases)

until they reduce price or include more models for the current cost nothing will turn around for GW.

The barrier to entry is too high compared to competitors.

They are in 2016 but refuse to communicate in a meaningful manner, a face book page that deletes negative comments is exactly how not to do it they need to face the music and apologise.

Their negative image amongst gamers and retail will ensure they keep shrinking opening a few game rooms won't change that.

hobojebus wrote:
until they reduce price or include more models for the current cost nothing will turn around for GW.

The barrier to entry is too high compared to competitors.

They are in 2016 but refuse to communicate in a meaningful manner, a face book page that deletes negative comments is exactly how not to do it they need to face the music and apologise.

Their negative image amongst gamers and retail will ensure they keep shrinking opening a few game rooms won't change that.

Really, as someone eyeing AoS (I like the Stormcasts and the "Do what you want" approach seems like it would be amazing for actual, smaller-style narrative campaigns), the barrier to entry is and always will be the biggest deterrent. The rules I can at least deal with if I have regular people and we are doing narrative stuff (seems more common to find this in AoS than 40k, anyways). But having to pay as much a they charge for everything is the nail in the coffin, because it has always felt like you aren't getting your money's worth on whatever you buy. AoS at least seems to somewhat mitigate this with the notion that you can buy a box of something and expand your force with just it, instead of having to "plan" buying a box of this, a box of that and a transport or whatever for 40k, but it's still pretty daunting unless you want to only play smaller scale games.

AoS at least seems to somewhat mitigate this with the notion that you can buy a box of something and expand your force with just it, instead of having to "plan" buying a box of this, a box of that and a transport or whatever for 40k, but it's still pretty daunting unless you want to only play smaller scale games.

Its only daunting if you only want to play larger games, that means the benefit of starting small is irrelevant.

I don't only want to play large games, But I equally don't only want to play small games so the fact that you can start small and still have decent games is one of AOS big plus points to me. I can buy a box here and a box there and play games whilst building up. Then I can play small or large as the desire strikes me. With the likes of WFB or KOW where the games don't really work well at small numbers of models then there is much larger barrier to entry.

Plus don't think it is only cost. Mantic maybe (or were when I last looked) a lot cheaper then GW, but I have no desire to buy some humongous amount of stuff just because it is cheap. Whilst there are of course plenty of people who are like robots and make/paint/base stuff rapidly, there are also those like me who in a case like that would just have a pile of stuff that takes months to work through (even just doing them unpainted). Number of models for decent game can be as much a barrier to entry in its own right even when they are cheap.

The fact that AoS can work with a box here and there helps encourage you to buy what you can afford, and then spend some time and effort on the 10 models or whatever whilst you wait another month for another box.

puree wrote:


The fact that AoS can work with a box here and there helps encourage you to buy what you can afford, and then spend some time and effort on the 10 models or whatever whilst you wait another month for another box.

I agree and I've painted more since AoS came out than I did in my life for WFB before. I don't need to hit any sort of minimum army size to play, so I never want to play with unpainted models.

I was just watching a YT video with similar thoughts. Back in the day I felt encouraged to buy more than I could commit myself to painting any time soon just to have a full list and be able to play. Most of my models were grey or spray coated. It can be very hard to work up the motivation to paint when you have such a huge pile of shame. It's made even harder if you realize you hate painting Troop X but have 39 more of them to do. Painting always felt like trying to rush out a complete army and not something I enjoyed methodically.

But with AoS, I buy one box at a time, and even the start collecting boxes are almost too many models for me at once. I buy a box, spend about three weeks or a month painting it, buy the next one. I like this cycle and I feel like I'm getting great bang for my buck in terms of hobby time. The mentality is totally different, but somehow I've ended up with more than a WFB army size of painted models in this relaxed manner, whereas I never had a fully painted WFB army before.

coldgaming wrote:

puree wrote:


The fact that AoS can work with a box here and there helps encourage you to buy what you can afford, and then spend some time and effort on the 10 models or whatever whilst you wait another month for another box.

I agree and I've painted more since AoS came out than I did in my life for WFB before. I don't need to hit any sort of minimum army size to play, so I never want to play with unpainted models.

I was just watching a YT video with similar thoughts. Back in the day I felt encouraged to buy more than I could commit myself to painting any time soon just to have a full list and be able to play. Most of my models were grey or spray coated. It can be very hard to work up the motivation to paint when you have such a huge pile of shame. It's made even harder if you realize you hate painting Troop X but have 39 more of them to do. Painting always felt like trying to rush out a complete army and not something I enjoyed methodically.

But with AoS, I buy one box at a time, and even the start collecting boxes are almost too many models for me at once. I buy a box, spend about three weeks or a month painting it, buy the next one. I like this cycle and I feel like I'm getting great bang for my buck in terms of hobby time. The mentality is totally different, but somehow I've ended up with more than a WFB army size of painted models in this relaxed manner, whereas I never had a fully painted WFB army before.

As someone who buys way too much to paint, I agree. But for those of us with Fantasy armies we already have models to start our new faction. Even TK and Brets still have the free scroll lists online and you could always proxy them as something similar if you wanted to use skeletons for Undead current book, for example. Personally, I think a chunk of the players who have stayed away from AoS are steadily starting to try it out with their existing models or armies they got on ebay in the exodus. Not jumping into any internal sales GW numbers crap because none of us have the actual truth there. Yeah, it's expensive and won't be changing anytime soon, but the start collecting boxes are a nice effort.

21 naked dwarves £100, mantic dwarf starter 72 models £50.

3x the models half the price.

Now like or dislike the models the difference in value is undeniable.

That's what's killing GW, greed.

hobojebus wrote:
21 naked dwarves £100, mantic dwarf starter 72 models £50.

3x the models half the price.

Now like or dislike the models the difference in value is undeniable.

That's what's killing GW, greed.

Yeah, but IMO for this matter, you get what you pay for. I wish the Fyreslayers are cheaper as well but these are two different things. I also play KoW and as a dwarf collector took the super cheap deal compared to GW but the models are such crap I couldn't even use them and be happy putting them on the table, let alone painting them. For KoW with the footprint unit sizes it's fine since a diorama and heavy converting might make this tolerable over two army boxes but for AoS I need less models and I'm quite happy with the value I get. So KoW dwarfs cheaper but no desire to use them = wasted money.

Fyreslayers are fun to build, paint and play and I will play them over and over again for a good investments getting much more than my money's worth. Indeed, there is an undeniable difference in value. The GW models have value for me aesthetically and practically to use them. Like or dislike, as you say, it doesn't mean something is better if it's cheaper. I know you think GW is greedy. Maybe they are. I would be ecstatic if GW models came down in price even 15-20% but most gamers in my experience and I very much believe want to be happy with their purchase and continued use, otherwise it's just wasted money.

hobojebus wrote:

Now like or dislike the models the difference in value is undeniable.

Except that sentence doesn't actually make sense, as value is more of a qualitative assessment than a quantitative one.

Cost per individual 'wound counter' is undeniably lower in Mantic's case, but there comes a point where it's not simply about cost of the minis.
This is, after all, a luxury hobby. It is not an essential expense. It's not like having to go with economy store-brand food out of necessity rather than choice.
It's all equally pointless and ephemeral.
I know plenty of people who wouldn't buy Mantic minis at half the price, just as I know people who would probably carry on buying GW stuff at twice the price.

I wouldn't buy the soulless cad models AoS has released so far for free they are seriously bad.

I'm a gamer I use the models as wound counters when they are not on a board they sit in a box not in a display case.

So gw prices are beyond a joke offering no value for money where mantics by comparison fantastic.

hobojebus wrote:
I wouldn't buy the soulless cad models AoS has released so far for free they are seriously bad.

Yet you expect people to buy Mantic's product when they have the same opinion of them that you do of GW's product

 Ghaz wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
I wouldn't buy the soulless cad models AoS has released so far for free they are seriously bad.

Yet you expect people to buy Mantic's product when they have the same opinion of them that you do of GW's product

I never said I expected people to buy mantic models I mearly pointed out they were a much better deal.

If mantic can make plastic infantry that cheap there's no reason GW can't , I'm using mantics stuff to illustrate how much AoS stuff is inflated in price.

No. They're not a better deal, just like you said that you wouldn't buy GW's models "for free". You expect us to use Mantic's models because they're a better 'deal', yet you won't use GW's models if they're free, therefore making them an unbeatable 'deal'? You're contradicting yourself.

Mantic's models are only a better deal if your primary concern is that the models are mere "wound counters" that sit in a box when not being used.

From that perspective, I would 100% agree that Mantic's models are a great deal.

From the perspective of wargaming as a visual spectacle, and that the visuals are just as important as the game itself, I would say mantic's models fall well short and what you save in money you take a hit in visuals, and from that perspective at least from my own ... I would never buy a mantic model over GW model unless I just really liked the mantic model.

That has happened a couple of times, mainly abyssal dwarves for my chaos dwarf army, but overall I feel Mantic's models are very sub par.

I also don't see models as wound counters though and the game is only part of the whole thing to me.

auticus wrote:
Mantic's models are only a better deal if your primary concern is that the models are mere "wound counters" that sit in a box when not being used.

From that perspective, I would 100% agree that Mantic's models are a great deal.

From the perspective of wargaming as a visual spectacle, and that the visuals are just as important as the game itself, I would say mantic's models fall well short and what you save in money you take a hit in visuals, and from that perspective at least from my own ... I would never buy a mantic model over GW model unless I just really liked the mantic model.

That has happened a couple of times, mainly abyssal dwarves for my chaos dwarf army, but overall I feel Mantic's models are very sub par.

I also don't see models as wound counters though and the game is only part of the whole thing to me.

alot of the competitive players in my area dont even use models...they uses pieces of papers that counts as the unit...and they just mark off how many wounds that piece of paper took

They are releasing models but also discontinued a couple armies so far.

 Ghaz wrote:
You're contradicting yourself.

Yeah, you'll get that a lot...
With one exception, the nicest thing I've ever been able to say about a Mantic sculpt is that I could see what they were going for.
Even the already maligned Stormcast Stormdrake - *what* the model should look like is up for debate, but at least you can be sure it's been realised exactly how GW wanted.
Whether you think it's worth it, or whether you like how it looks, is a whole other discussion.
The other point that keeps coming up is that GW aren't a safe bet because anything could be 'squatted' at any time.
Well, yes. But then if you're prepared to put your faith in a company that appears to be living hand to mouth and can't even fulfil kickstarters properly, well you run the risk of everything being squatted.
If you're going to compare companies, then PP is the only real valid comparison - in terms of technical product quality, range of products etc. - and they still fall behind on sheer volume of output.

GW are going to hammer AoS (no pun intended) for the next 12-18 months. At that point they'll start judging whether to bin fantasy completely, I'd imagine.

We know those are bad? Sorry but that is nothing but conjecture, bias, and opinion.

Global numbers are made up of the sales from gw stores, online stores, and flgs. In that sense, the sales from each flgs matter. The store's I have visited around here all say that aos has raised their fantasy sales quite a bit (from almost none to hard to keep in stock due to sales). They have said that 40k sales are falling though, which has balanced their decreasing 40k sales to what overall sales used to be.

If you are basing your opinions off gw's corporate health, well, their profits and losses are not posted by game. There is no way to decipher this. Any posts about that or global sales is... opinion. No one had global facts. The only varifiable facts we can get are our flgs sales.

No varifiable facts = no proof = not true = rumors = conjecture = personal bias

 Ghaz wrote:
If you're going to compare companies, then PP is the only real valid comparison - in terms of technical product quality, range of products etc. - and they still fall behind on sheer volume of output.

A couple years ago, I'd agree, but right now I'd put Wyrd up there instead. While assembly is sometimes a pain, the jump in model quality between first edition pewter Malifaux models and the modern, second edition plastic kits has been enormous. I didn't give their stuff the time of day before, but these days their materials and sculpts are both considerably superior to Privateer Press's stuff, and I'd point to them as the number one example of a minis company that succeeds in all the ways GW fails in terms of game design and community support, without sacrificing model quality.

 Malisteen wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
If you're going to compare companies, then PP is the only real valid comparison - in terms of technical product quality, range of products etc. - and they still fall behind on sheer volume of output.

A couple years ago, I'd agree, but right now I'd put Wyrd up there instead. While assembly is sometimes a pain, the jump in model quality between first edition pewter Malifaux models and the modern, second edition plastic kits has been enormous. I didn't give their stuff the time of day before, but these days their materials and sculpts are both considerably superior to Privateer Press's stuff, and I'd point to them as the number one example of a minis company that succeeds in all the ways GW fails in terms of game design and community support, without sacrificing model quality.

You might want to edit the tags on that, Ghaz was quoting me.

I'm not too familiar with Wyrd stuff as Malifaux was DoA at our club due to being pushed by a couple of insufferable neckbeards who cheated persistently, but I got the impression they don't operate at a scale even approximate to PP/GW. Happy to be shown otherwise though! I'd agree that their output is good, but I'd mentally classed them at Corvus Belli' level - single system, low release frequency.

 Ghaz wrote:
No. They're not a better deal, just like you said that you wouldn't buy GW's models "for free". You expect us to use Mantic's models because they're a better 'deal', yet you won't use GW's models if they're free, therefore making them an unbeatable 'deal'? You're contradicting yourself.

That's a strawman no where have I said I expect people to use mantic models, repeating it won't make it true.

I compared one plastic dwarf to another by price and by volume, that is separated from my personal opinion that all the new AoS stuff is ugly.

There's no contraction one is a fact the other is an opinion.

Mantic starter set is cheaper and does give you more stuff than GW's 21 dwarves for £100 pounds, that's a fact it's incontrovertible.

My not thinking the AoS stuff is worth anything in an opinion that's subjective.

And please stop trying to put words in my mouth it's a wasted effort I don't respond to strawman arguments.

 motyak wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
simplified 40K
Space Marines
Sigmarines
flying Sigmarines
Sigmarines
Sigmarines
Sigmarines
Sigmarines
Hammers Siggies

Hey RiTides, you're right!

We don't have a 'tag' function on dakka, perhaps it would be better in future for you to put things that have no discernible content in PMs to people you want to see them instead. Thanks

Oh, sorry - this was in reference to the moderators only selectively moderating Age of Sigmar, not moderating each other, and even participating in flame-baiting and trolling. It was interesting to see such a shining example of that.

hobojebus wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
No. They're not a better deal, just like you said that you wouldn't buy GW's models "for free". You expect us to use Mantic's models because they're a better 'deal', yet you won't use GW's models if they're free, therefore making them an unbeatable 'deal'? You're contradicting yourself.

That's a strawman no where have I said I expect people to use mantic models, repeating it won't make it true.

I compared one plastic dwarf to another by price and by volume, that is separated from my personal opinion that all the new AoS stuff is ugly.

There's no contraction one is a fact the other is an opinion.

Mantic starter set is cheaper and does give you more stuff than GW's 21 dwarves for £100 pounds, that's a fact it's incontrovertible.

My not thinking the AoS stuff is worth anything in an opinion that's subjective.

And please stop trying to put words in my mouth it's a wasted effort I don't respond to strawman arguments.

No. You're the one making strawman arguments claiming Mantic's models are a 'better deal' and then go on to claim GW's models wouldn't be a 'better deal' even if they're free just because you don't like the sculpts.

I must say that I really despise mantic models. Especially their elves are in my opinion the worst models in existence.

As for the argument about the two companies one must choose either expensive quality (GW) or cheap quantity (Mantic).

Everything else is subject to what part of the hobby one enjoys most...