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That would ruin the internal balance though. Free klaw, play too 'upgrade' to buy choppa.

 jreilly89 wrote:
I disagree. I see a "complete overhaul" as redesigning units and models and functionally writing a new codex, ala CSM. Seriously, changing the Mob Rule is one of the few things needed to make Orks not total garbage. And it doesn't "completely change the dynamic of how Orks play", it makes them not runaway, take pinning tests, or fail every Leadership test thrown at them. It's in no way comparable to RP.

If you can, please explain to me how changing a LD rule functionally changes how Orks play.

That one rule does effectively change the way Orks play. In fact the entire reason why Orks got kicked in the nads was because that rule got changed without considerations to what it did to balance. A 6 point Ork with the old 4th edition of the rule effectively ignored it's LD7 when it's squad was over 10 models and was, more or less, a Khorne Berserker with worse armor, but for 1/4th of the points . It meant that you could feasably put them in a trukk and even if the trukk blew up, they wouldn't flee even with casualties. You also didn't have to buy characters with high LD or Bosspoles just to keep your units from running away.

Now if a trukk blew up, you'd have to test for leadership. With LD7 regardless of the number of survivors, they'll probably be running. If you tried to mitigate that LD7 with a character (say a nob) then he might end up cracking heads, losing you even more boyz. These are hyperboles but still very much possible. Now if they had kept the "gain fearless when over 11 models" then the boyz wouldn't give two squig's ass about the trukk blowing up. And this goes for every Ork unit in the book that can take more than 10 models in their unit.

Racial rules form the very basis of armies and so changing them, no matter how small, would fundamentally change how that army is played and would be a complete overhaul. If you need a comparison, just look at Space Marines VS Chaos Space Marines; one is considered indefinitely worse because it runs away when it fails a morale check and the other doesn't. That's basically the difference between 4th edition Orks and 7th edition Orks.

 Melissia wrote:
Please, CSM players have always whined about their codex, even when their armies were consistently at the top of tournament rankings. I'll give a damn what they think once/if Sisters actually do get updated.

Sisters should have been updated alongside Blood Angels during the Shield of Baal. It boggles my mind that they were there and did not receive anything ruleswise. Meanwhile, Necrons did, despite getting a codex a month later.

You have it fairly right in regards to what hurt the ork codex pretty badly.

The biggest problem that orks have is that we are incapable of fielding MSU armies because of that LD7, We can field 2 bikers with a nob/PK on a bike (3 total models) and if one dies then more then likely they will either flee off the table or the nob will kill the other boy reducing your bike squad to a nob/pk who can easily be shot to death, or realistically ignored until he charges you and gets overwatched to death.

Orks also have the only vehicles in the game with Pseudo leadership (Killa Kanz/Cowardly Grots)

Those same killa kanz also got a 40%ish increase in cost, (35pts to 50pts) and With the new edition rules they are effectively table ornaments.

Grey Knights are a really quick fix: give nemesis strike force assault out of deepstrike. They'd instantly go from mid-tier to highly competitive.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Please, CSM players have always whined about their codex, even when their armies were consistently at the top of tournament rankings. I'll give a damn what they think once/if Sisters actually do get updated.

Sisters should have been updated alongside Blood Angels during the Shield of Baal. It boggles my mind that they were there and did not receive anything ruleswise. Meanwhile, Necrons did, despite getting a codex a month later.

Be glad you didn't get an update then. You'd have been nerfed into the trash bin just like BA were. Bad/outdated models is one thing, but at least your army has solid rules. Would you still be as content to be playing sisters if say, in Shield of Baal, you got a plastic battle sister squad and St Celestine and a printed codex that turned your army into unplayable gak? Because in all probability that's exactly what would have happened had you gotten a Shield of Baal update. They would have wrecked your dex and given you 2 MAYBE 3 plastic kits. Maybe none.

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Please, CSM players have always whined about their codex, even when their armies were consistently at the top of tournament rankings. I'll give a damn what they think once/if Sisters actually do get updated.

Sisters should have been updated alongside Blood Angels during the Shield of Baal. It boggles my mind that they were there and did not receive anything ruleswise. Meanwhile, Necrons did, despite getting a codex a month later.

Be glad you didn't get an update then. You'd have been nerfed into the trash bin just like BA were. Bad/outdated models is one thing, but at least your army has solid rules. Would you still be as content to be playing sisters if say, in Shield of Baal, you got a plastic battle sister squad and St Celestine and a printed codex that turned your army into unplayable gak? Because in all probability that's exactly what would have happened had you gotten a Shield of Baal update. They would have wrecked your dex and given you 2 MAYBE 3 plastic kits. Maybe none.

Not a Sisters player. I am a Blood Angels player. And don't even get me started on that.

You say "be thankful", and yet we still basically haven't had a real update that actually improved our lists since 3rd edition (everything since then has basically just been a lame rehash, and hasn't actually involved a real physical codex and we've not gained anything actually new), and haven't had new models since 2nd barring a few rare exceptions... many of which aren't for sale any more anyway (which, let's face it, is the reason our rules haven't actually had anything new and exciting in so long-- if they had something new they wanted to sell, they'd have made rules for it).

You honestly don't have much to complain about compared to that.

Agree to disagree. Army swap with a buddy who runs BA if possible and see how it feels when everyone in your group asks you if you want a handicap before the game because your book is THAT BAD. You have fun with your Sororitas, yes? Well imagine having half as much fun for half as many turns because when you nut up and refuse the handicap you almost always get tabled by turn four.

I doubt sisters will get a codex before they get a plastic release. The way I see it, is that GW won't update them or make a new line for them because no one is buying them. No one buys them because there's not been an update/new line.

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Please, CSM players have always whined about their codex, even when their armies were consistently at the top of tournament rankings. I'll give a damn what they think once/if Sisters actually do get updated.

Sisters should have been updated alongside Blood Angels during the Shield of Baal. It boggles my mind that they were there and did not receive anything ruleswise. Meanwhile, Necrons did, despite getting a codex a month later.

Be glad you didn't get an update then. You'd have been nerfed into the trash bin just like BA were. Bad/outdated models is one thing, but at least your army has solid rules. Would you still be as content to be playing sisters if say, in Shield of Baal, you got a plastic battle sister squad and St Celestine and a printed codex that turned your army into unplayable gak? Because in all probability that's exactly what would have happened had you gotten a Shield of Baal update. They would have wrecked your dex and given you 2 MAYBE 3 plastic kits. Maybe none.

The current Sororitas Codex is not bad but like others is fading fast as the power codexes get their OP formations, upgrades freebies and such..

The Blood Angels at least have / are getting new models - not just by GW but also via FW. They are not at the point where GW seems to be cutting the whole line because they can't be bothered to make non Marines.

According to their own fluff, Blood Angels are a codex chapter with a few oddities - like the Death Company. The 5th (?) ed codex with its explosion of Blood themes - blood guns firing blood missiles that explode in blood is as bad as the wolf riding wolf marines in wolf armour with a wolf claw sword.

As others have said the SOB are in GW made catch 22 - they don't sell because they don't make them, therefore they make less so they don't sell....I think they were going to do but didn't for some reason - why commission all the new artwork otherwise?

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Please, CSM players have always whined about their codex, even when their armies were consistently at the top of tournament rankings. I'll give a damn what they think once/if Sisters actually do get updated.

Sisters should have been updated alongside Blood Angels during the Shield of Baal. It boggles my mind that they were there and did not receive anything ruleswise. Meanwhile, Necrons did, despite getting a codex a month later.

Be glad you didn't get an update then. You'd have been nerfed into the trash bin just like BA were. Bad/outdated models is one thing, but at least your army has solid rules. Would you still be as content to be playing sisters if say, in Shield of Baal, you got a plastic battle sister squad and St Celestine and a printed codex that turned your army into unplayable gak? Because in all probability that's exactly what would have happened had you gotten a Shield of Baal update. They would have wrecked your dex and given you 2 MAYBE 3 plastic kits. Maybe none.

At least Blood Angels have one of the single best model lines in the entire game...

Sisters at least get semi-decent rules that will work especially well in non-Tournament style play...

Chaos Marines have a model line that's almost as ancient as Sisters, fugly as steaming rodent gak, and our army is so bad that we typically get tabled within 2 turns.
Try playing as Thousand Sons/Tzeentch Marines that don't use any Daemons or can't even access IA:13. Our rules are designed to outright screw us over.