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 Traditio wrote:

 Baldeagle91 wrote:
They're possibly the best unit in the IG codex. While they're incredibly useful, they not a totally OP unit people will complain about and are actually quite easy to knock out. They're great Ywat forcing enemy units out of cover.

Yes, they are. 48 inch range, ignores cover, shred heavy 2 blast should not be on a 65 point tank.

If anything, the fact that the OP consistently kills 3-5 times the points cost of a wyvern should in and of itself be apparent evidence that it's OP.

Ditto for whirlwinds and thunderfire cannons.

GW, imho, sorely underestimates the points value of ranged barrage weapons.

I definitely agree wyvern and TFCs could use a price bump, but I've gotta say whirlwinds are fine as is. Wyvern are S4 ap6 4 small blasts. They may be say, 15 points undercosted, but not OP by a long shot

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

 Baldeagle91 wrote:
They're possibly the best unit in the IG codex. While they're incredibly useful, they not a totally OP unit people will complain about and are actually quite easy to knock out. They're great Ywat forcing enemy units out of cover.

Yes, they are. 48 inch range, ignores cover, shred heavy 2 blast should not be on a 65 point tank.

If anything, the fact that the OP consistently kills 3-5 times the points cost of a wyvern should in and of itself be apparent evidence that it's OP.

Ditto for whirlwinds and thunderfire cannons.

GW, imho, sorely underestimates the points value of ranged barrage weapons.

I definitely agree wyvern and TFCs could use a price bump, but I've gotta say whirlwinds are fine as is. Wyvern are S4 ap6 4 small blasts. They may be say, 15 points undercosted, but not OP by a long shot

Agreed. I can see points for Wyverns and TFC (mostly due to the multiple shots) but Whirlwinds? Against a properly spaced out opponent, that single Large Blast will not kill that much. Whirlwinds are absolutely fine as is.

Martel732 wrote:
It's considerably less efficient vs T5, but it's still good.

Well even their MEQ killing ability is overstated. Against most non horde armies I find wyverns increasingly meh.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

 Baldeagle91 wrote:
They're possibly the best unit in the IG codex. While they're incredibly useful, they not a totally OP unit people will complain about and are actually quite easy to knock out. They're great Ywat forcing enemy units out of cover.

Yes, they are. 48 inch range, ignores cover, shred heavy 2 blast should not be on a 65 point tank.

If anything, the fact that the OP consistently kills 3-5 times the points cost of a wyvern should in and of itself be apparent evidence that it's OP.

Ditto for whirlwinds and thunderfire cannons.

GW, imho, sorely underestimates the points value of ranged barrage weapons.

I definitely agree wyvern and TFCs could use a price bump, but I've gotta say whirlwinds are fine as is. Wyvern are S4 ap6 4 small blasts. They may be say, 15 points undercosted, but not OP by a long shot

Agreed. I can see points for Wyverns and TFC (mostly due to the multiple shots) but Whirlwinds? Against a properly spaced out opponent, that single Large Blast will not kill that much. Whirlwinds are absolutely fine as is.

Don't whirlwinds had a formation where three of them basically makes them better wyverns?

 Baldeagle91 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It's considerably less efficient vs T5, but it's still good.

Well even their MEQ killing ability is overstated. Against most non horde armies I find wyverns increasingly meh.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

 Baldeagle91 wrote:
They're possibly the best unit in the IG codex. While they're incredibly useful, they not a totally OP unit people will complain about and are actually quite easy to knock out. They're great Ywat forcing enemy units out of cover.

Yes, they are. 48 inch range, ignores cover, shred heavy 2 blast should not be on a 65 point tank.

If anything, the fact that the OP consistently kills 3-5 times the points cost of a wyvern should in and of itself be apparent evidence that it's OP.

Ditto for whirlwinds and thunderfire cannons.

GW, imho, sorely underestimates the points value of ranged barrage weapons.

I definitely agree wyvern and TFCs could use a price bump, but I've gotta say whirlwinds are fine as is. Wyvern are S4 ap6 4 small blasts. They may be say, 15 points undercosted, but not OP by a long shot

Agreed. I can see points for Wyverns and TFC (mostly due to the multiple shots) but Whirlwinds? Against a properly spaced out opponent, that single Large Blast will not kill that much. Whirlwinds are absolutely fine as is.

Don't whirlwinds had a formation where three of them basically makes them better wyverns?

Yes and no. They get pinning and Shred with better strength and ap, but no ignores cover.

Whirlwind's can get ignores cover with their other rocket choice I believe

I'm not at all surprised that a heavy mortar platform is really good at killing lightly-armored infantry.

I'm with the crowd who thinks the Wyvern is criminally undercosted. In my group, it's the reason infantry can't be played in the open, because it just butchers them.

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:
I'm with the crowd who thinks the Wyvern is criminally undercosted. In my group, it's the reason infantry can't be played in the open, because it just butchers them.

Why just in the open?

Surely it would actually force your troops into the open seeing at least then they'd be doing something productive?

 Baldeagle91 wrote:

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:
I'm with the crowd who thinks the Wyvern is criminally undercosted. In my group, it's the reason infantry can't be played in the open, because it just butchers them.

Why just in the open?

Surely it would actually force your troops into the open seeing at least then they'd be doing something productive?

Uhh, good point. The Wyvern has Ignore Cover, doesn't it? Being in-cover versus outside-cover makes no difference then.

 Baldeagle91 wrote:

Why just in the open?

Surely it would actually force your troops into the open seeing at least then they'd be doing something productive?

What I mean by that is not in a vehicle of some sort, since cover is meaningless against a Wyvern.

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:

 Baldeagle91 wrote:

Why just in the open?

Surely it would actually force your troops into the open seeing at least then they'd be doing something productive?

What I mean by that is not in a vehicle of some sort, since cover is meaningless against a Wyvern.

: (

That's a good point. Hordes of infantry slaughtering each other by the thousands (or dozens in the case of the tabletop game) is gosh-darned amazing, but that can't happen if the enemy infantry stay in their metal boxes.

Indeed.

Look at it this way: it's very close in stats (if you swap BS4 for BS3 twin-linked and S5 for S4 shred) to the infamous 30k Quad-gun, which legion players tend to use as the poster-child for power-gaming in 30k.

It doesn't have the 'alternate antitank ammo' option (essentially tank hunter krak missiles), but it's a touch cheaper and ignores cover is a pretty fair swap.

locarno24 wrote:
Indeed.

Look at it this way: it's very close in stats (if you swap BS4 for BS3 twin-linked and S5 for S4 shred) to the infamous 30k Quad-gun, which legion players tend to use as the poster-child for power-gaming in 30k.

It doesn't have the 'alternate antitank ammo' option (essentially tank hunter krak missiles), but it's a touch cheaper and ignores cover is a pretty fair swap.

Is the Wyvern fun to play against, or does facing one across the table detract from the fun?

 Pouncey wrote:

Is the Wyvern fun to play against, or does facing one across the table detract from the fun?

My only problem with them is the mechanics of working out the hits, which does slow down gameplay.

They have a job, they do it well. They might be slightly underpriced, but close enough to what they should be I file them under “efficient” not “broken”

But they are fragile, and can’t do much against vehicles. I’ve not found them un-fun when seen across the table. A threat to my troops? Yup. But that’s the game.

--

I don’t see how people can complain about the whirlwind. It basically shoots a large blast version of a flamer or heavy bolter. Neither of which is particularly feared. Sure, if you have 3 in a squad, you get pinning and shred, but then you are talking about ~200 points invested in paper tanks

TFCs have a lot of similarities to the wyvern, and are probably a bit undercoated as well. Not a fragile though, which is a major advantage.

 Nevelon wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

Is the Wyvern fun to play against, or does facing one across the table detract from the fun?

My only problem with them is the mechanics of working out the hits, which does slow down gameplay.

They have a job, they do it well. They might be slightly underpriced, but close enough to what they should be I file them under “efficient” not “broken”

But they are fragile, and can’t do much against vehicles. I’ve not found them un-fun when seen across the table. A threat to my troops? Yup. But that’s the game.

--

I don’t see how people can complain about the whirlwind. It basically shoots a large blast version of a flamer or heavy bolter. Neither of which is particularly feared. Sure, if you have 3 in a squad, you get pinning and shred, but then you are talking about ~200 points invested in paper tanks

TFCs have a lot of similarities to the wyvern, and are probably a bit undercoated as well. Not a fragile though, which is a major advantage.

Good. : D

I've been considering redoing my army composition to be an Unbound army with the bulk of points being in IG (mostly infantry), a couple squads of Sororitas, and a single squad of vanilla Space Marines. I also have to figure out how to represent the army's leader, as he's a non-Space Marine who wears power armor but isn't a Sister of Battle. I'm thinking a generic Inquisitor with appropriate gear for the model is the only real option, but then I'd have to buy the Inquisition Codex and it was such a pain to print out my Sororitas one (legally purchased from Black Library's official site. I don't have a tablet. The many, many pictures used up multiple cartridges of ink on my first attempt) I was thinking of getting a Wyvern since I've been having trouble dealing with infantry mobs, but if it was going to just be annoying to play against I'd find something else.

Since I play with a very agreeable opponent, we'll probably figure out a mutually-acceptable way of dealing with multiple barrage blasts that's not such a pain to figure out who gets hit. I'm thinking at the moment maybe just letting the owner of the target unit pick which models under the templates get removed.