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OK, so are we agreed that per the BRB, there is permission and no restriction on units using a BB allied transport; however, per the DraFtAQ, there is a restriction?

If so, I'm confused as to what all this arguing is about.

I am pointing out that the Draft FAQ writers are keying in on the difference between the Embarked upon state that is designated during Deployment and the Embarking process that happens once the game starts.

Wait so why can't, say, Desperate Allies deploy inside a transport according to this interpretation?

It can't be proximity, because the Draft FAQ says that you do not measure for such things when a unit is inside a transport.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Wait so why can't, say, Desperate Allies deploy inside a transport according to this interpretation?

It can't be proximity, because the Draft FAQ says that you do not measure for such things when a unit is inside a transport.

The Draft FAQ says you can't start the game in "allied Transports". It's not saying Allied Detachment, it's talking about all allies no matter the quality of their alliance. So, no deploying Desperate Allies or Come the Apocaplyse allies in a transport at the start of a game. No sticking Tyranid infantry inside a Land Raider at the start of a game. That's even if you treat deployment into transports as separate from embarking, since desperate allies and Come the Apocalypse don't have permission to embark on those allies' transports in the first place.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 doctortom wrote:


Well, there's still that pesky "The whole unit must be able to embark - if some models are out of range, the entire unit must stay outside" rule that applies when embarking, but doesn't apply during deployment if deployment doesn't count as embarking. Still a bit of a slippery slope there.

The rules give permission to deploy inside Transports and Buildings, not inside and outside.

The rules give permission to deploy in your deployment zone. They also give you permission to deploy inside transports and buildings. You already have permission for both if you don't treat deployment into a transport as embarking.


Also, speaking of pesky things, there's still the thing Charistoph pointed out that if you don't embark when you deploy inside a vehicle, you can't voluntarily disembark because you don't count as being embarked (since there's nothing to define your status as being embarked unless you actually embark)

col_impact wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
I will stick to the rules of the game. I don't use fluff as a source of rules. Thank you for making it clear to this thread that your opinion on this matter can be ignored by the serious player.

You mean you will stick to your fantasy view of the rules of the game and of English and try to demean anyone who thinks differently.

If you have an actual quote to counter what I have stated, then provide it. The "fluff/story-wise" thing is actually part of the game logic now called "Forging the Narrative". It is used to hand-wave those things which would not otherwise make sense in the real world, such as a unit being embarked at the start of the game without actual doing all the fine details of embarking. It is considered having been done and not ignored in all respects.

Inappropriate argument for this forum.

Spoiler:

3. Never, ever bring real-world examples into a rules argument.
- The rules, while creating a very rough approximation of the real world, are an abstraction of a fantasy universe. Real world examples have no bearing on how the rules work. So quit it.

I wasn't using an inappropriate argument. Actually READ what I wrote again. I was referring to things like this in the BRB's Introduction:

Forging a Narrative
Throughout this book, you will see boxed out text entitled ‘Forging a Narrative’. These boxes contain advice on how to make your gaming experience even more enjoyable, and revolve around evoking the imagery and feel of the 41st Millennium. At its heart, a game of Warhammer 40,000 is a shared experience between fellow hobbyists – and it should be as enjoyable and fulfilling for all players as possible. If you stick to the advice offered in these boxes, you can’t really go far wrong!

I was using the rulebook's own statements as ways to justify enforcing the tenets of embarking when one goes to classify a unit as embarked without using the temporal and placing embarking usually requires. This is "forging the narrative" that embarking would have been accomplished back at the staging area/ship to bring them to the location so they are in the Transport at the time the fight/game starts.

col_impact wrote:I am pointing out that the Draft FAQ writers are keying in on the difference between the Embarked upon state that is designated during Deployment and the Embarking process that happens once the game starts.

And I am telling you that is a red herring since what applies to Battle Brothers also applies to those who are not accessing the Ally rules. The Draft FAQ is not keying in on anything in the rulebook. They are attempting to change the rule without an Errata.

Unit1126PLL wrote:Wait so why can't, say, Desperate Allies deploy inside a transport according to this interpretation?

It can't be proximity, because the Draft FAQ says that you do not measure for such things when a unit is inside a transport.

Desperate Allies are "enemy units", not "friendly units". Your Transport's Desperate Allies cannot start the game embarked in it any more than your opponent's units can start the game embarked in it.

Unit1126PLL was saying the same thing that I was, and it is poking the hole in Impact's logic: if the deploying in "embarked upon state" as he puts it forgoes the actual process of embarking, and he is trying to say that there is some difference in the 2; then any unit that is not a battle brother(as the FAQ only denies them) can be deployed in said state in the transport vehicle.

I had used Come the Apocalypse units in my example as it is the furthest thing from battle brothers, but any of them count. Also as I had pointed out quite some time ago; the same FAQ declares that units embarked upon transports are not considered to be on the table for anything other than using the fire points, so moving within and deployment range restrictions will never and cannot apply while they are embarked(but also means that they cannot disembark).

Also, yes Impact, the tenet does not apply as Christoph was using a quote from the rulebook, not a real-world situation. Unless you are trying to apply it as the real-world situation of actually following the rule book; which considering the entirety of your argument, seems likely.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Unit1126PLL was saying the same thing that I was, and it is poking the hole in Impact's logic: if the deploying in "embarked upon state" as he puts it forgoes the actual process of embarking, and he is trying to say that there is some difference in the 2; then any unit that is not a battle brother(as the FAQ only denies them) can be deployed in said state in the transport vehicle.

I had used Come the Apocalypse units in my example as it is the furthest thing from battle brothers, but any of them count. Also as I had pointed out quite some time ago; the same FAQ declares that units embarked upon transports are not considered to be on the table for anything other than using the fire points, so moving within and deployment range restrictions will never and cannot apply while they are embarked(but also means that they cannot disembark).

Also, yes Impact, the tenet does not apply as Christoph was using a quote from the rulebook, not a real-world situation. Unless you are trying to apply it as the real-world situation of actually following the rule book; which considering the entirety of your argument, seems likely.

The rules that prevent Allies of Convenience, Desperate Allies, and Come the Apocalypse allies from embarking on your main faction's transports are these . . .





If not for those rules then Come the Apocalypse allies could embark on to the main faction's transports.

When you measure the distance between the vehicle hull (for the vehicle) and the vehicle hull (for the unit in the 'embarked upon' state) you get zero inches. Only Battle Brothers can be within 0" of one another.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Wait so why can't, say, Desperate Allies deploy inside a transport according to this interpretation?

It can't be proximity, because the Draft FAQ says that you do not measure for such things when a unit is inside a transport.

The Draft FAQ is referring to unit special rules. The Ally rules are not unit special rules.

Yes, I replied to those same statements several pages back after I first brought it up.

I also included exactly why neither of those rules apply again in the post you quoted.

But here we go again:

Cannot move within 1": Embarked unit is not moving, also not on the table in order to measure distance to.

Cannot be deployed within 12": Embarked unit is once again, not on the table to be measured to.

And you last statement has no rules basis(at least not since the FAQ declared all embarked units completely not on the table).

Edit: sorry, I missed your reply to Unit.

The FAQ question asks about Special Rules; The answer, however, declares embarked units complete non-entities that do not interact with anything on the battlefield unless a special rule specifies that it is effective while Embarked.

You should try reading the bits you are posting about ad nauseum.

col_impact wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Unit1126PLL was saying the same thing that I was, and it is poking the hole in Impact's logic: if the deploying in "embarked upon state" as he puts it forgoes the actual process of embarking, and he is trying to say that there is some difference in the 2; then any unit that is not a battle brother(as the FAQ only denies them) can be deployed in said state in the transport vehicle.

I had used Come the Apocalypse units in my example as it is the furthest thing from battle brothers, but any of them count. Also as I had pointed out quite some time ago; the same FAQ declares that units embarked upon transports are not considered to be on the table for anything other than using the fire points, so moving within and deployment range restrictions will never and cannot apply while they are embarked(but also means that they cannot disembark).

Also, yes Impact, the tenet does not apply as Christoph was using a quote from the rulebook, not a real-world situation. Unless you are trying to apply it as the real-world situation of actually following the rule book; which considering the entirety of your argument, seems likely.

The rules that prevent Allies of Convenience, Desperate Allies, and Come the Apocalypse allies from embarking on your main faction's transports are these . . .

Spoiler:

Allies of Convenience, Desperate Allies
Cannot move with 1" of an Allies of Convenience model.

Spoiler:

Come the Apocalypse
Units that will only ally ‘Come the Apocalypse’ are treated exactly like Desperate Allies, but cannot deploy within 12” of each other when they are deploying for battle.

If not for those rules then Come the Apocalypse allies could embark on to the main faction's transports.

When you measure the distance between the vehicle hull (for the vehicle) and the vehicle hull (for the unit in the 'embarked upon' state) you get zero inches. Only Battle Brothers can be within 0" of one another.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Wait so why can't, say, Desperate Allies deploy inside a transport according to this interpretation?

It can't be proximity, because the Draft FAQ says that you do not measure for such things when a unit is inside a transport.

The Draft FAQ is referring to unit special rules. The Ally rules are not unit special rules.

Wait a minute, why are you talking about the rules that prevent a unit from embarking on a transport when you say that embarking is not the same thing as deployment? The Desperate Allies rule about having to be at least 12" away would cover not doing it with Desperate Allies, but that quote for Allies of Convenience doesn't matter since deployment doesn't count as moving - they end up in the transport without moving. As I pointed out above, the statment that you can't board allied transports is the statement that covers it all - it's referring to all alliances, not just Battle Brothers, or just to Allied Detachments.


EDIT: Kommissar Kel - as I pointed out above, it's the FAQ itself preventing deploying in any Allied transport, no matter what the level of alliance. Unless, of course, deploying into a transport counts as embarking into the unit.

col_impact wrote:
The rules that prevent Allies of Convenience, Desperate Allies, and Come the Apocalypse allies from embarking on your main faction's transports are these . . .

Spoiler:

Allies of Convenience, Desperate Allies
Cannot move with 1" of an Allies of Convenience model.

Spoiler:

Come the Apocalypse
Units that will only ally ‘Come the Apocalypse’ are treated exactly like Desperate Allies, but cannot deploy within 12” of each other when they are deploying for battle.

If not for those rules then Come the Apocalypse allies could embark on to the main faction's transports.

When you measure the distance between the vehicle hull (for the vehicle) and the vehicle hull (for the unit in the 'embarked upon' state) you get zero inches. Only Battle Brothers can be within 0" of one another.

You are providing a double standard here. First you say the reason the Battle Brothers cannot be embarked during deployment is because they are allowed to go through the embarking process but not be embarked, but everything you just quoted involves the embarking process.

Make up your mind. Be consistent.

DoctorTom:
First off, the FAQ only says battle brothers may not deploy in allied transports(obviously the other levels of alliance cannot be deployed therein because they cannot embark at all)

Second, for the 3rd time, I am illustrating the absurdity of Impact's assertion that deploying in a transport, whether during deployment or in reserves, is not embaking into the transport but instead merely applying an "embarked upon state" means that non-battle brothers can use that same logic to deploy in said state within allied transports with no regard to the denials normally placed on them.

 Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
The rules that prevent Allies of Convenience, Desperate Allies, and Come the Apocalypse allies from embarking on your main faction's transports are these . . .

Spoiler:

Allies of Convenience, Desperate Allies
Cannot move with 1" of an Allies of Convenience model.

Spoiler:

Come the Apocalypse
Units that will only ally ‘Come the Apocalypse’ are treated exactly like Desperate Allies, but cannot deploy within 12” of each other when they are deploying for battle.

If not for those rules then Come the Apocalypse allies could embark on to the main faction's transports.

When you measure the distance between the vehicle hull (for the vehicle) and the vehicle hull (for the unit in the 'embarked upon' state) you get zero inches. Only Battle Brothers can be within 0" of one another.

You are providing a double standard here. First you say the reason the Battle Brothers cannot be embarked during deployment is because they are allowed to go through the embarking process but not be embarked, but everything you just quoted involves the embarking process.


Make up your mind. Be consistent.

No double standard. I am adhering to exactly what the rules say (and no more).

The rules allow you to designate units as 'embarked upon' Transports while forbidding the Embarking process from occuring during any portion of the game outside of the movement phase.

Them's the rules and I apply the singular standard of obeying the rules.


As I have indicated earlier in this thread . . .

The broad permission to designate a unit as embarked upon a transport is provided in the rules on Deployment and Reserves









Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
DoctorTom:
First off, the FAQ only says battle brothers may not deploy in allied transports(obviously the other levels of alliance cannot be deployed therein because they cannot embark at all)

Second, for the 3rd time, I am illustrating the absurdity of Impact's assertion that deploying in a transport, whether during deployment or in reserves, is not embaking into the transport but instead merely applying an "embarked upon state" means that non-battle brothers can use that same logic to deploy in said state within allied transports with no regard to the denials normally placed on them.

You are the one ignoring the rule that restricts Embarking to the movement phase.


Shall we just hand-wave that restriction away because it offends you?

col_impact wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
The rules that prevent Allies of Convenience, Desperate Allies, and Come the Apocalypse allies from embarking on your main faction's transports are these . . .

Spoiler:

Allies of Convenience, Desperate Allies
Cannot move with 1" of an Allies of Convenience model.

Spoiler:

Come the Apocalypse
Units that will only ally ‘Come the Apocalypse’ are treated exactly like Desperate Allies, but cannot deploy within 12” of each other when they are deploying for battle.

If not for those rules then Come the Apocalypse allies could embark on to the main faction's transports.

When you measure the distance between the vehicle hull (for the vehicle) and the vehicle hull (for the unit in the 'embarked upon' state) you get zero inches. Only Battle Brothers can be within 0" of one another.

You are providing a double standard here. First you say the reason the Battle Brothers cannot be embarked during deployment is because they are allowed to go through the embarking process but not be embarked, but everything you just quoted involves the embarking process.


Make up your mind. Be consistent.

No double standard. I am adhering to exactly what the rules say (and no more).

The rules allow you to designate units as 'embarked upon' Transports while forbidding the Embarking process from occuring during any portion of the game outside of the movement phase.

Them's the rules and I apply the singular standard of obeying the rules.


As I have indicated earlier in this thread . . .

The broad permission to designate a unit as embarked upon a transport is provided in the rules on Deployment and Reserves

Spoiler:

Models can be deployed ‘inside’ buildings, fortifications, or Transport vehicles in their deployment zone, subject to their Transport Capacity

Spoiler:

you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
DoctorTom:
First off, the FAQ only says battle brothers may not deploy in allied transports(obviously the other levels of alliance cannot be deployed therein because they cannot embark at all)

Second, for the 3rd time, I am illustrating the absurdity of Impact's assertion that deploying in a transport, whether during deployment or in reserves, is not embaking into the transport but instead merely applying an "embarked upon state" means that non-battle brothers can use that same logic to deploy in said state within allied transports with no regard to the denials normally placed on them.

You are the one ignoring the rule that restricts Embarking to the movement phase.

Spoiler:

Embarking
A unit can embark onto a vehicle by moving each model to within 2" of its Access Points in the Movement phase

Shall we just hand-wave that restriction away because it offends you?

If you want to quote a rule that restricts embarking to the movement phase; you might want to quote the correct rule: "Models can only voluntarily embark or disembark in the movement phase."

So if you are going to quote a restriction make sure you are quoting a restriction, not just a statement about how a thing is done.

But then we have the deployment and reserves rules that both specifically allow that restriction to be broken.

I also find it funny how you are talking about enemy units not allowed to move within 1", but you only need to get within 2" to embark. And, no, nowhere in the transport rules is there any statement that only friendly models may embark.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:


But then we have the deployment and reserves rules that both specifically allow that restriction to be broken.

Where do you see in the deployment and reserve rules that Embarking is being permitted.

I only see permission to designate a unit as "embarked upon" a Transport, which circumvents the Embarking process entirely.

That's the way the rules add up here.

col_impact wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:


But then we have the deployment and reserves rules that both specifically allow that restriction to be broken.

Where do you see in the deployment and reserve rules that Embarking is being permitted.

I only see permission to designate a unit as "embarked upon" a Transport, which circumvents the Embarking process entirely.

That's the way the rules add up here.

And again we get to your claim of some "embarked upon state" which allows for all the points I made earlier that you "refuted" via the Embarking rules.

So which is it?

Can I deploy one of my units in the embarked upon state into one of your empty transports?

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:


But then we have the deployment and reserves rules that both specifically allow that restriction to be broken.

Where do you see in the deployment and reserve rules that Embarking is being permitted.

I only see permission to designate a unit as "embarked upon" a Transport, which circumvents the Embarking process entirely.

That's the way the rules add up here.

And again we get to your claim of some "embarked upon state" which allows for all the points I made earlier that you "refuted" via the Embarking rules.

So which is it?

Can I deploy one of my units in the embarked upon state into one of your empty transports?

Only if you broadly allow your units to embark into an unoccupied Stompa controlled by your opponent and once therein wreck havok internally.

There is a hole in the rules that allow you to embark upon your enemy's unoccupied transports in the movement phase since the rules only require a unit and a Transport and does not specify 'from your army'. But that's not a hole that comes as a result of my line of argumentation. That's a hole in the rules that is entirely independent of my argument.

There is an unstated convention that disallows that. But no written rule disallows that.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
DoctorTom:
First off, the FAQ only says battle brothers may not deploy in allied transports(obviously the other levels of alliance cannot be deployed therein because they cannot embark at all)

Actually the Grey Knights FAQ on the first page of this thread states "You can't start the game embarked in allied Transports" - that one wasn't differentiating between Battle Brothers and other allies

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Second, for the 3rd time, I am illustrating the absurdity of Impact's assertion that deploying in a transport, whether during deployment or in reserves, is not embaking into the transport but instead merely applying an "embarked upon state" means that non-battle brothers can use that same logic to deploy in said state within allied transports with no regard to the denials normally placed on them.

I had just been pointing out some other rules that would disallow the deploying/embarking. Arguing that deploying doesn't count as embarking or having embarked, though, is ignoring the FAQ where it says "Start the game embarked in an allied Transport" , meaning being deployed in a transport also means they are embarked into the transport If they're embarked, them getting in the transport would have been governed by the embarking rules at the time they embarked - which means according to the main rulebook, an allied IC could have been embarked in the transport - though the FAQ seems to want to shoot that down.

EDIT: Though it occurs to me now that they are tanswering a question about a unit starting the game embarked, not an IC joined to a unit. Of course, since col_impact treats an IC as a separate unit even when joined to another unit, he'd still apply the FAQ ruling. I don't have the main rulebook FAQ handy, did it refer to having an allied character joining a unit in their transport, or was it merely a response to a whole unit being deployed in an allied transport?

col_impact wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
The rules that prevent Allies of Convenience, Desperate Allies, and Come the Apocalypse allies from embarking on your main faction's transports are these . . .

Spoiler:

Allies of Convenience, Desperate Allies
Cannot move with 1" of an Allies of Convenience model.

Spoiler:

Come the Apocalypse
Units that will only ally ‘Come the Apocalypse’ are treated exactly like Desperate Allies, but cannot deploy within 12” of each other when they are deploying for battle.

If not for those rules then Come the Apocalypse allies could embark on to the main faction's transports.

When you measure the distance between the vehicle hull (for the vehicle) and the vehicle hull (for the unit in the 'embarked upon' state) you get zero inches. Only Battle Brothers can be within 0" of one another.

You are providing a double standard here. First you say the reason the Battle Brothers cannot be embarked during deployment is because they are allowed to go through the embarking process but not be embarked, but everything you just quoted involves the embarking process.

Make up your mind. Be consistent.

No double standard. I am adhering to exactly what the rules say (and no more).

The rules allow you to designate units as 'embarked upon' Transports while forbidding the Embarking process from occuring during any portion of the game outside of the movement phase.

Them's the rules and I apply the singular standard of obeying the rules.


As I have indicated earlier in this thread . . .

The broad permission to designate a unit as embarked upon a transport is provided in the rules on Deployment and Reserves

Spoiler:

Models can be deployed ‘inside’ buildings, fortifications, or Transport vehicles in their deployment zone, subject to their Transport Capacity

Spoiler:

you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together

No, you have contradicted yourself.

You have stated, or at least implied, that Battle Brothers cannot be embark during deployment since you cannot fulfill the requirements of embarking.

Yet, your very claim you have made twice as to why other Allies cannot Embark are all portions of the rules that are in place that would prevent Embarking as well.

So which is it? Are units denied embarking during deployment because of the embarking process restrictions or not?

Please provide credible and relevant quotes to support your statement.

Nope.

It's a pretty clear picture if we stick to the BRB and leave the Draft FAQ aside. The Draft FAQ has some contradictions to sort out. So let's sort out what exactly the BRB says.


1) Embarking does not happen during deployment/reserves since it's not a movement phase.

2) Broad permission is granted for the player to deploy his units 'inside' any Transport or to designate any unit as embarked upon a Transport in reserves. Both of these actions place the unit in an 'embarked upon/embarked on' state that skips the Embarking process (which is forbidden from occuring)

3) A player that attempts to deploy a unit inside a Transport that is enemy of that unit (ie an Ally worse than a Battle Brother) will prevent that Transport from moving, pivoting and the embarked unit will not be able to disembark (enemy models cannot move within 1" of another). Similarly, a unit that is designated 'embarked' upon an enemy Transport in Reserves prevents that Transport from arriving from reserves since the Transport cannot move within 1' of an enemy unit.


So while technically legal, starting the game 'embarked upon' an enemy Transport is a really bad pointless strategy.



There are lots of possibilities in 40k which wind up not happening because they wind up being bad for the player and then disallowed by convention.

It's technically allowed for you to start the game with your models stacked on top of one another. However, its a bad idea since stacking would immobilize both models. Only jump, jetpack, etc. type models could escape the immobilization.

There is no rule which requires you to start with your models in coherence either.

By convention players refrain from doing either so as not to engage in trolling behavior. But no written rule forbids it.

col_impact wrote:
It's a pretty clear picture if we stick to the BRB and leave the Draft FAQ aside. The Draft FAQ has some contradictions to sort out. So let's sort out what exactly the BRB says.

When changing direction it is good to have this in, for future reference, otherwise people will naturally assume it is along the same track.

col_impact wrote:

1) Embarking does not happen during deployment/reserves since it's not a movement phase.

In a literal sense, correct. In "Forging the Narrative", it is done either on ship or at staging area where movement is surely possible, just not tracked by game mechanics. Either way, a pointless point to pursue largely because of your second point.

col_impact wrote:
2) Broad permission is granted for the player to deploy his units 'inside' any Transport or to designate any unit as embarked upon a Transport in reserves. Both of these actions place the unit in an 'embarked upon/embarked on' state that skips the Embarking process (which is forbidden from occuring)

It is not forbidden from occurring, it is not just not permitted as a literal action. The difference is significant.

But the point should (and has repeatedly) be made that while the embarking process is skipped in terms of position and timing, the other standards that are which can be enforced (Transport Capacity, for example) cannot nor should not be ignored so there is no question of legality in .

col_impact wrote:
3) A player that attempts to deploy a unit inside a Transport that is enemy of that unit (ie an Ally worse than a Battle Brother) will prevent that Transport from moving, pivoting and the embarked unit will not be able to disembark (enemy models cannot move within 1" of another). Similarly, a unit that is designated 'embarked' upon an enemy Transport in Reserves prevents that Transport from arriving from reserves since the Transport cannot move within 1' of an enemy unit.

The biggest problem with this is how do you measure to a model that is not actually on the table?

 Charistoph wrote:

The biggest problem with this is how do you measure to a model that is not actually on the table?

The distance between a unit 'embarked upon' a Transport and the Transport itself is not surprisingly 0 inches.

col_impact wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

The biggest problem with this is how do you measure to a model that is not actually on the table?

Spoiler:

If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle’s hull.

The distance between a unit 'embarked upon' a Transport and the Transport itself is not surprisingly 0 inches.

Except that the very same set of Draft FAQs says that we do not consider this unless the rule specifically addresses a unit inside the Transport.

Either you can measure to it, and ignore the Draft FAQs which deny Battle Brothers being embarked on Transports during deployment, or you cannot measure to it and follow the Draft FAQs which deny Battle Brothers being embarked on Transports during deployment.

Either way, your argument is rendered pointless without deliberately picking and choosing which parts of the rules you are going to follow.

 Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

The biggest problem with this is how do you measure to a model that is not actually on the table?

Spoiler:

If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle’s hull.

The distance between a unit 'embarked upon' a Transport and the Transport itself is not surprisingly 0 inches.

Except that the very same set of Draft FAQs says that we do not consider this unless the rule specifically addresses a unit inside the Transport.

Either you can measure to it, and ignore the Draft FAQs which deny Battle Brothers being embarked on Transports during deployment, or you cannot measure to it and follow the Draft FAQs which deny Battle Brothers being embarked on Transports during deployment.

Either way, your argument is rendered pointless without deliberately picking and choosing which parts of the rules you are going to follow.

Not exactly. For sure units embarked on enemy transports are prohibited from disembarking.



The Disembarking rules make it clear that you cannot disembark from an enemy Transport.

col_impact wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

The biggest problem with this is how do you measure to a model that is not actually on the table?

Spoiler:

If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle’s hull.

The distance between a unit 'embarked upon' a Transport and the Transport itself is not surprisingly 0 inches.

Except that the very same set of Draft FAQs says that we do not consider this unless the rule specifically addresses a unit inside the Transport.

Either you can measure to it, and ignore the Draft FAQs which deny Battle Brothers being embarked on Transports during deployment, or you cannot measure to it and follow the Draft FAQs which deny Battle Brothers being embarked on Transports during deployment.

Either way, your argument is rendered pointless without deliberately picking and choosing which parts of the rules you are going to follow.

Not exactly. For sure units embarked on enemy transports are prohibited from disembarking.

Spoiler:

Placing Disembarked Models
When a unit disembarks, place the models one at a time, using the following method: place the first model in base contact with one of the vehicle’s Access Points (including its flying base, if it has one). A disembarking model’s base cannot be placed within 1" of an enemy model or within impassable terrain.

The Disembarking rules make it clear that you cannot disembark from an enemy Transport.

That's fine with me. Just stuff the Tyranids in Land Raiders and drive them down the opponent's throat. Either the opponent kills them, which means they get charged by a whole barrel of angries, or they don't, and they can't kill your army.

col_impact wrote:
Not exactly. For sure units embarked on enemy transports are prohibited from disembarking.

Spoiler:

Placing Disembarked Models
When a unit disembarks, place the models one at a time, using the following method: place the first model in base contact with one of the vehicle’s Access Points (including its flying base, if it has one). A disembarking model’s base cannot be placed within 1" of an enemy model or within impassable terrain.

The Disembarking rules make it clear that you cannot disembark from an enemy Transport.

Seems like you could use Emergency Disembarkation just fine, though.

col_impact wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

The biggest problem with this is how do you measure to a model that is not actually on the table?

Spoiler:

If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle’s hull.

The distance between a unit 'embarked upon' a Transport and the Transport itself is not surprisingly 0 inches.

Except that the very same set of Draft FAQs says that we do not consider this unless the rule specifically addresses a unit inside the Transport.

Either you can measure to it, and ignore the Draft FAQs which deny Battle Brothers being embarked on Transports during deployment, or you cannot measure to it and follow the Draft FAQs which deny Battle Brothers being embarked on Transports during deployment.

Either way, your argument is rendered pointless without deliberately picking and choosing which parts of the rules you are going to follow.

Not exactly. For sure units embarked on enemy transports are prohibited from disembarking.

Spoiler:

Placing Disembarked Models
When a unit disembarks, place the models one at a time, using the following method: place the first model in base contact with one of the vehicle’s Access Points (including its flying base, if it has one). A disembarking model’s base cannot be placed within 1" of an enemy model or within impassable terrain.

The Disembarking rules make it clear that you cannot disembark from an enemy Transport.

Christoph said nothing about disembarking; so, what point are you trying to make?

I am pretty sure I had mentiined that enemy units cannot disembark from a transport that they can embark(if I didn't, I meant to) several days ago.

Although, since firepoints still don't measure to the unit for any movement purposes; sticking one of your units in an enemy open topped vehicle means that you get to fire out of it and are safe from return fire for the rest of the game.

Mr. Shine: still cannot emergency disembark due to being placed against the enemy transport model's hull then moving away. Last line of Emergency disembark is that if even that cannot be done the unit simply cannot disembark.

col_impact wrote:
Not exactly. For sure units embarked on enemy transports are prohibited from disembarking.

Spoiler:

Placing Disembarked Models
When a unit disembarks, place the models one at a time, using the following method: place the first model in base contact with one of the vehicle’s Access Points (including its flying base, if it has one). A disembarking model’s base cannot be placed within 1" of an enemy model or within impassable terrain.

The Disembarking rules make it clear that you cannot disembark from an enemy Transport.

No, you are still setting up a contradiction or inconsistency in the rules for getting them IN TO the Transport as to WHY the Battle Brothers cannot and why other Allies cannot. We aren't talking about getting them out, yet.

Of course, as you pointed out we are still looking at a scenario much like getting in to a Transport without "embarking" (forge the narrative and use proper conjugation) in that getting out again is a problem. They can still get out of it, but it will require the Transport to Explode! in order to do so.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

Mr. Shine: still cannot emergency disembark due to being placed against the enemy transport model's hull then moving away. Last line of Emergency disembark is that if even that cannot be done the unit simply cannot disembark.

 doctortom wrote:
Actually, it's only if the vehicle's a wreck that they couldn't emergency disembark. If the vehicle explodes you follow the normal rules and put survivors in the crater of where the vehicle used to be, since there's no vehicle left to measure to. If you allow the deployment in the first place into the vehicle (and load it up with shooty models).

Emergency Disembark can be used during a Wreck or it can be used during a voluntary Disembark. It just requires a Disembark process where you cannot place the models next to an entry point.

The only time you can get out of a Vehicle without Disembark is during an Explodes! result or similar, as you stated.

So here's how it works out.


Pre-FAQ

The BRB broadly gives permission for your units to embark on, be deployed 'inside', and/or to be designated (in Reserves) 'embarked upon' any transport.

Your units that are 'enemy' with a transport cannot embark on that transport or disembark from that transport due to requirement to stay 1" from an enemy unit.

This means that only Battle Brothers can wind up in each other transports.


Post-FAQ

Your units can't start the game embarked in allied transports.

Your units can embark 'enemy' transports during the game (including your opponents!) since measuring from the embarked unit to the transport no longer happens.

Units cannot disembark (including emergency disembark) from 'enemy' transports.


So post-FAQ you can jump into your opponent's unoccupied transport and shoot at the enemy or even at the transport itself from the fire points while being protected from enemy fire by the transport .