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tpryan01 wrote:
can you show us the great number of women and brown people in the TTG?

40k table top is a minis game, you're welcome to paint people up whatever colour you want em.

BrianDavion wrote:

tpryan01 wrote:
can you show us the great number of women and brown people in the TTG?

40k table top is a minis game, you're welcome to paint people up whatever colour you want em.

You can also stick dog heads on them, but that doesn't really change anything about the games representation.

 Chef_of_Cadia wrote:
I wish people would get off this diversity train. Women and brown people are in 40k stuff all the time, quit whining about it.

Really? Where? Show me the studio armies filled with a sensible mix of skin colours! Show me the Imperial Guard box set that contains female soldiers! Please.

On the topic of diversity - I find it interesting and really neat that the Dusk Raiders - who would later be absorbed into the Death Guard - were basically all Albanian.

There's loads of cool cultural backgrounds to take inspiration from!

 Gen.Steiner wrote:
There's loads of cool cultural backgrounds to take inspiration from!

there are but 40k doesn't delve into the culture of local worlds etc much at all (and 40k is further into the future then human civilization is old lotta room for new things to grow too) I'd kill for more books like Eisenhorn that really explore the setting outside of "this is a boltgun, it's awesome and killing stuff, space marines are so awesome. chaos is screwed up. Orks are wacky"

that said adapting cultures you need to be careful, while it's easy to rip off a european cultural motiff, these days make a china or japan in space and you could be accused of racism.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Gen.Steiner wrote:
There's loads of cool cultural backgrounds to take inspiration from!

there are but 40k doesn't delve into the culture of local worlds etc much at all (and 40k is further into the future then human civilization is old lotta room for new things to grow too) I'd kill for more books like Eisenhorn that really explore the setting outside of "this is a boltgun, it's awesome and killing stuff, space marines are so awesome. chaos is screwed up. Orks are wacky"

that said adapting cultures you need to be careful, while it's easy to rip off a european cultural motiff, these days make a china or japan in space and you could be accused of racism.

Absolutely. Dan Abnett and Sandy Mitchell's books and stories really do show you a bit about what daily life is like - Abnett more so - than the Spess Muhreen bolter-porn that a lot of the Black Library works are (and there's nothing wrong with that).

It'd be nice to see more about Lady Solaria. A book would be nice. Is there one?

tpryan01 wrote:
can you show us the great number of women and brown people in the TTG?
SIsters don't count...they are cringe worthy and NOT what female players need in this game.

Women appear in a huge variety of roles in Black Library who arguably actually talk about the 40k universe rather than a few linked battles as Codexes have increasingly become.

The only organisation that (in BL) women are not shown in all roles is the Astartes - and even then they can be part fo the support services such as the fleet - although usually failed aspirants are favoured in many chapters.

I would agree that GW's main codexes are steering away for women characters sadly.

In the same way, males can not be in the Sororitas

I know several female players who really like the Sisters, also some also like Wyches and some like Orks and Tau. Same with male players. Weird huh?

"brown" people are the same, except of couse they can be both Astartes and Sororitas

BrianDavion wrote:

that said adapting cultures you need to be careful, while it's easy to rip off a european cultural motiff, these days make a china or japan in space and you could be accused of racism.

The Tau and Eldar already borrow some aspects of Japanese and Chinese culture, blended with other stuff.

Attempts at China or Japan in space come off as racist caricatures when they are done by white guys with obviously little knowledge of the cultures in question beyond the superficial amount skimmed off a textbook, and perhaps laden with outsider cultural preconceptions. Any company attempting "country in space" would do well to ask someone from that culture with in depth knowledge of the history and background to do it, and accept that the final product does not have to be a theme park caricature (i.e. Space Japan does not necessarily have to have space samurai committing suicide with swords or space daimyo).

I dunno, as an Englishman, I rather liked GW's theme park caricature of the 19th century British - complete with pith helmets!

 Lord Damocles wrote:
I dunno, as an Englishman, I rather liked GW's theme park caricature of the 19th century British - complete with pith helmets!

To be fair, the Praetorians are just the most obvious bit of tongue-in-cheek self-deprecation...!

Iracundus wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

that said adapting cultures you need to be careful, while it's easy to rip off a european cultural motiff, these days make a china or japan in space and you could be accused of racism.

The Tau and Eldar already borrow some aspects of Japanese and Chinese culture, blended with other stuff.

Attempts at China or Japan in space come off as racist caricatures when they are done by white guys with obviously little knowledge of the cultures in question beyond the superficial amount skimmed off a textbook, and perhaps laden with outsider cultural preconceptions. Any company attempting "country in space" would do well to ask someone from that culture with in depth knowledge of the history and background to do it, and accept that the final product does not have to be a theme park caricature (i.e. Space Japan does not necessarily have to have space samurai committing suicide with swords or space daimyo).

yup, I know I played battletech for years, as I got older and a little more worldly I began to realize the Draconious Combine and the Capellan Confederation where shallow caricatures that could come off as a bit racist.

From the 30k rulebook, knight army list:

The Knight Households are not simply a
military force but a hereditary bloodline
of war, a bloodline whose sons and
daughters must be tempered in the fires
of battle from a young age.

/thread

 Peregrine wrote:
From the 30k rulebook, knight army list:

The Knight Households are not simply a
military force but a hereditary bloodline
of war, a bloodline whose sons and
daughters must be tempered in the fires
of battle from a young age.

/thread

Yeah. That settles that really!

First, I'm not sure if OP is a troll or largely ignorant of the role women play in the universe of 40k.

Oggthrok wrote:


The issue of gender in 40k keeps forums like this one hopping. Could there be female Space Marines? (Nope, says the forum, too unrealistic, upper body strength, etc)

That's not why, and it's been answered so many times before. Would you consider it sexist that men can't join the Adepta Sororitas? At least women can't join the ranks of the Space Marines due to fluff-explained gentic incompatibility rather than "no, you're a man."

Oggthrok wrote:

What about female Imperial Guard miniatures? (Nope, says the forum, when women put on a uniform they look exactly like men) In the dark future, at least for humanity, there are only men. (And the occasion inquisitor or ancient battle sister)

I would love female IG, especially the Mordant Acid Dogs. This is a genuine weakness from GW, luckily companies like Victoria Miniatures offer fantastic female guard. However, AdMech also use females as bases for their soldiers - you just can't recognise their gender after that much alteration. However, there's plenty of women in the Imperial Army (Heresy-era), so it's there fluff-wise, just missing the models.

Oggthrok wrote:

So, when Imperial Knights came out, I thought "Oh, well, there's one race you can say has female fighters - no one can claim only men can sit in a chair and run a robot. You don't need superior upper body strength to use a joystick or a nuero-helmet or whatever." Then I read that codex, and learned that, no, like all human armies in games workshop games they're absolutely one hundred percent Y chromosome oriented, just like every other human army. Sorry buddy, steer your daughter toward Eldar when she wants to play, humans reproduce by spore, and the biggest and muscley-est are the ones in charge.

What? Nobody has ever said there are no female Knight pilots.

Oggthrok wrote:


Then, Relic goes and says "Yeah, we didn't read that codex, you shouldn't have either," and pops out with The Forbidden Gender piloting a knight. Honestly, it was like when there was a black Space Marine librarian in DOW2, and I realized I had never seen a space marine painted anything other than "tanned flesh." The games, it seems, invariably go for more diversity than GW feels comfortable with.

Uuuuuuuuuuh. As mentioned, Salamanders are black/grey. Because most players are white, they paint what they're familiar with. There's lots of pigment variation within the BL publications. GW's market is also largely white (and male), so their models reflect this.

 Peregrine wrote:
From the 30k rulebook, knight army list:

The Knight Households are not simply a
military force but a hereditary bloodline
of war, a bloodline whose sons and
daughters must be tempered in the fires
of battle from a young age.

/thread

Have an Exalt.

Ah, man, the Mordant Acid Dogs! I'd forgotten all about them. They're badass as anything. Expert tunnel fighters if I recall correctly, right? Recruited from a hive world and thus brilliant at fighting in enclosed spaces and in toxic conditions.

AdMech Skitarii would probably have lost any secondary sexual characteristics due to enhanced testosterone, muscle mass boosting, and enormous levels of combat drugs as well as all sorts of bionics. Similar to Astartes, too, really, except, you know, smaller.

 Gen.Steiner wrote:
Ah, man, the Mordant Acid Dogs! I'd forgotten all about them. They're badass as anything. Expert tunnel fighters if I recall correctly, right? Recruited from a hive world and thus brilliant at fighting in enclosed spaces and in toxic conditions.

AdMech Skitarii would probably have lost any secondary sexual characteristics due to enhanced testosterone, muscle mass boosting, and enormous levels of combat drugs as well as all sorts of bionics. Similar to Astartes, too, really, except, you know, smaller.

I adore them! Makes me think of Terminator-setting human resistance fighters! I love Arkhan, Praetorian, Catachan, and Mordant Acid Dogs. Acid Dogs are extra cool in that they're not shamelessly lifted from the pages of history.

Yeah, the various units that don't have instantly obvious historical analogues - Savlar Chem-Dogs, for example - are a really wonderful glimpse at the true madness of the setting.

tpryan01 wrote:
can you show us the great number of women and brown people in the TTG?
SIsters don't count...they are cringe worthy and NOT what female players need in this game.

By that standard, there's no white people in the game either, since everything comes out of the box grey (or silver if you're still using metal figs.).

In the grim future of the 41st millennium, there is only shades of plastic.

Also, newsflash for ya, Sisters isn't an army designed for female players. It's designed for people who really get into the twist on religion 40k portrays in the Ecclesiarchy.

If I recall correctly, one of the very first Knight books by Black Library after the Knight codex came out had a female knight pilot, despite the codex explicitly stating they were only male.

Forgeworld, as shown above, completely ignores that line about only men being knights, too.

It's almost as if quite a few people even near/in GW instantly knew that GW's completely random and arbitrary sexism is ridiculously stupid.

....seriously whoever decided to come up with that line in the codex that knights explicitly were only male should be dragged off to one of those sensitivity/tolerance/"You are sexist even if you don't realize it so stop that. Stop that now." courses or something.

TiamatRoar wrote:
If I recall correctly, one of the very first Knight books by Black Library after the Knight codex came out had a female knight pilot, despite the codex explicitly stating they were only male.

Forgeworld, as shown above, completely ignores that line about only men being knights, too.

It's almost as if quite a few people even near/in GW instantly knew that GW's completely random and arbitrary sexism is ridiculously stupid.

....seriously whoever decided to come up with that line in the codex that knights explicitly were only male should be dragged off to one of those sensitivity/tolerance/"You are sexist even if you don't realize it so stop that. Stop that now." courses or something.

ok, honest question...

Do you consider George RR Martin Sexist? GoT shows a HORRIABLY sexist society, yet no one suggests that this is because of sexism on the part of the writer. yes we do see women who transcend the sexism inheriant in the setting but, as you yourself said, the VERY FIRST novel showed us a female knight. the original codex also mentions, repeatedly, how hidebound and tradition blinded the knight houses are, I suspect the sexism was their attempt to ram that home.

BrianDavion wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:
If I recall correctly, one of the very first Knight books by Black Library after the Knight codex came out had a female knight pilot, despite the codex explicitly stating they were only male.

Forgeworld, as shown above, completely ignores that line about only men being knights, too.

It's almost as if quite a few people even near/in GW instantly knew that GW's completely random and arbitrary sexism is ridiculously stupid.

....seriously whoever decided to come up with that line in the codex that knights explicitly were only male should be dragged off to one of those sensitivity/tolerance/"You are sexist even if you don't realize it so stop that. Stop that now." courses or something.

ok, honest question...

Do you consider George RR Martin Sexist? GoT shows a HORRIABLY sexist society, yet no one suggests that this is because of sexism on the part of the writer. yes we do see women who transcend the sexism inheriant in the setting but, as you yourself said, the VERY FIRST novel showed us a female knight. the original codex also mentions, repeatedly, how hidebound and tradition blinded the knight houses are, I suspect the sexism was their attempt to ram that home.

The issue with that logic is that it is not just limited to the Knight Houses. GW (not BL but GW itself) has almost non-existent representations of women, barring a few exceptions such as all female warrior cults like the SoB or Eldar Banshees or Dark Eldar Wyches. Ok, I know that technically Banshees and Wyches are not 100% female but their profession is generally seen as a female role. So basically aside from Amazon warrior cults, battle nuns, maybe Daemonettes, females are almost absent. Normal balanced female characters that are not some walking stereotype hardly exist in GW's publications. Regiments of Imperial Guard are supposed to settle new worlds upon retirement, yet you'd think they would all die out within a generation given how they seem entirely devoid of women in GW's writing and artwork.

It is part of that strange standard where certain topics or content like war, gore, slaughter are acceptable for kids/teens to be exposed to yet anything even vaguely sexual or that might detract from brawny men doing manly things is off-limits. The rare exception only proves the rule in GW's case.

ruhe.bryan wrote:
On the topic of diversity - I find it interesting and really neat that the Dusk Raiders - who would later be absorbed into the Death Guard - were basically all Albanian.

I'd thought they were Scottish, myself. (Alba is the gaelic name for Scotland).

 Psienesis wrote:
Also, newsflash for ya, Sisters isn't an army designed for female players. It's designed for people who really get into the twist on religion 40k portrays in the Ecclesiarchy.

This. This needs to be said, repeated, and emphasized over and over again .

Lots of sensible things said in the last few posts.

I had to pinch myself.

I particularly appreciate the bit about the Sisters of Battle.

Oggthrok wrote:
So, what do you think? Anything gained in having female knight pilots be a thing? Anything lost?

Hopefully we will gain the chance to take IK with twin Gat cannons on the tabletop Oh and some sculpted amour pads with her sweet house emblem.

So far Renegade Knights can take double gatlings, but sadly loyalists can't.

Frankly, given the total lunacy of 40K as it stands, I don't see any reason whatsoever to deny people the joy of fielding dual gatling mega-bolter uber-cannon death-weapons on their Loyal Knights.