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 Baldeagle91 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

^This.

Originally the black crusades were all failed attempts to attack the imperium, then GW realised that their biggest bad guy had never actually accomplished anything so they changed the black crusades to make it seem as though Abaddon succeeded in finding a relic or testing the imperiums defences.

It doesn't help, that when a black crusade finally wins due to the playerbase, despite all promises, GW despites to go *LALALALA NEVER HAPPENED!* then retcon as if the 13th black crusade never happened!

The bad guy finally win a major campaign and actually get somewhere to further the plot and GW goes, "nope cos Terr'uh".

Thats why i giggle every time i see them going, "The 13th black crusade is starting up!" im like....oh thats happening again, what is this? The third time now?

I blame Tzeentch. He's bored and his fav show is on hiatus, so he has to keep rewinding the 40k Universe like that 6 year old kid who loves to watch that one goofy scene over and over again.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I blame Tzeentch. He's bored and his fav show is on hiatus, so he has to keep rewinding the 40k Universe like that 6 year old kid who loves to watch that one goofy scene over and over again.

Well that would explain cypher then, trying to get the gak head to stop hitting rewind on the damn thing.

That moment when an offhand joke makes more sense than the actual canon.

Oh boy.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
That moment when an offhand joke makes more sense than the actual canon.

Oh boy.

I mean think about it, we know that So eh who know!!

Jimsolo wrote:I
God forbid Aaron Dembski-Bowden give a marginalized, one dimensional faction something as breathtakingly refreshing as a motive.

Having all that plot structure and character development shoved down my throat is so ridiculous. Why can't he get with the program and just write a couple hundred pages of vaguely homoerotic bolter porn?

Problem is it leaves the Emperor seeming dumb and almost malevolent. We need something written about him to explain the reasoning behind his colossal screw ups (preferably something other than he had to do it to get the one good future because that's dumb). As it stands he veers between super genius saviour of humanity and idiot who couldn't lead anybody).

Backspacehacker wrote:
But really Abbadon has always been the mustache twirly villain, hell if it was not for his terminator armor, and the fact he got assaulting for a month straight, Lokan would have taken him in one on one combat. Abbadon is just a pawn for the Chaos gods, he has not rallied them, but rather at least got them all the bless him as a champion.

I don't think it's fair to hold the Loken thing against him. Had Horus come down Loken would probably have done something similar. Loken was superdooperawesome. That book got pretty bad.

 Ernestas wrote:


One of more recent examples of IG fanboyism was in Battlefleet Gothic Armada video game where chaos is portrayed like saturday cartoon villains,

Short answer, they are saturday morning cartoon villains, pretty much.

I've said this before, if you asked your average 10-14 year old what to write an "adult, mature" story, you'd end up with violence, sex, swearing, the idea that humans are bastards, religious imagery and probably the protagonists smoking and drinking a lot just to show how "edgy" the writer can be.

These ingredients, do not make a serious, mature story. They make a child's idea of a seroius, mature story.

 Ernestas wrote:
Even though, expecting for IG fanboy to understand why Chaos is ultimately right about this universe and nature of humanity is like asking Christian to use its reason. It is pointless since these two groups long forgotten how to think for themselves.

but I'm way beyond such mortal concerns.

Before putting "mortal concerns" behind you, learn to communicate with people civilly; you didn't need flame bait or the ever-classy "here's an argument from another forum presented one-sidedly! Agree with me!"

One thing about the 40k fluff is that I liked when the Heresy was just legend; I mean, fleshing it out is awesome, but reading through the first few HH books, I was completely sympathizing with Horus instead of booing him as the villain, and Loken came off like a whiny little punk who was all "Where has my Legion gone?". Erebus is a piece of gak though, straight up the Word Bearers are like absolute garbage and TFGs for what they did, just because they were wasting everyone's time building cathedrals and saying the Emperor was a god instead of doing their job and conquering the galaxy. Pure spoiled brat emo kid "Waah mommy yelled at me I'm going to cut myself and call child services on her" trash.

The problem though is that Chaos gets presented as one-dimensional crap because of the Chaos Gods, who also fall into one dimensional tropes nowadays: You have the angry "grr I want to kill everyone" bully (Khorne), what is for all intents and purposes a diseased Santa Claus who just wants to spread the love through diseases and plagues (Nurgle), the mwa-ha-ha everything is just as I planned even though you beat me I really will win just give it a few more centuries constant schemer for the sake of scheming (Tzeentch) and what is literally sex, drugs and rock and roll (Slaanesh). They are pretty much caricatures right now, so why is it any wonder that the Chaos factions tend to be as one-dimensional "Ha ha ha none can defeat me soon the world will be mine!" cartoon villains? The entirety of Chaos is basically a caricatured attempt at "evil" now, and then you throw in actual renegades who aren't necessarily Chaos but think the Imperium are hardasses and are basically biker gangs out of Mad Max and hang out in Daemonic Mos Eisley with the other scum and villainy of the galaxy (which is ironic because in the RT days weren't Space Marines like criminal scum who were press-ganged into service?).

nareik wrote:
I'm still waiting to see the pre-2nd ed codex stuff that states the first crusades were failures

It doesn't exist. Abbadon only came into being in 2nd ed. Black crusades are not unique to Abbadon, other warlords can take their warbands on a black crusade. Abby is now on his 13th. The references to failed crusades in RT refer to those conducted by other warlords.

WayneTheGame wrote:
One thing about the 40k fluff is that I liked when the Heresy was just legend; .

So, kinda like how Darth Vader was a more formidable villain his "destruction of the Jedi" was just slaughtering kids?

Tyranno wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
One thing about the 40k fluff is that I liked when the Heresy was just legend; .

So, kinda like how Darth Vader was a more formidable villain his "destruction of the Jedi" was just slaughtering kids?

That was the moment where all respect for Lucas was lost. Not even Jar Jar did it. But that did.

Tyranno wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
One thing about the 40k fluff is that I liked when the Heresy was just legend; .

So, kinda like how Darth Vader was a more formidable villain his "destruction of the Jedi" was just slaughtering kids?

Well he did kill other Jedi after becoming Vader to be fair. This isn't Abigail we're talking about at least, who decides that "testing the defenses" of different areas is a crusade and then counts it as a victory lest his ego go down, and had to have that added after everyone in our universe considered him gak at his job.

Tyranno wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
One thing about the 40k fluff is that I liked when the Heresy was just legend; .

So, kinda like how Darth Vader was a more formidable villain his "destruction of the Jedi" was just slaughtering kids?

Something like that if I understood you correctly. I think the Heresy stuff was better as something that happened in the background eons ago and just fragments of it exist in myth and legend. You know, like the Bible or King Arthur with bits of Ancient Rome in the sense that there are some items that exist from that time, but nobody is 100% certain what actually happened then.

The novels are great, don't get me wrong.

WayneTheGame wrote:

Tyranno wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
One thing about the 40k fluff is that I liked when the Heresy was just legend; .

So, kinda like how Darth Vader was a more formidable villain his "destruction of the Jedi" was just slaughtering kids?

Something like that if I understood you correctly. I think the Heresy stuff was better as something that happened in the background eons ago and just fragments of it exist in myth and legend. You know, like the Bible or King Arthur with bits of Ancient Rome in the sense that there are some items that exist from that time, but nobody is 100% certain what actually happened then.

The novels are great, don't get me wrong.

^ This.

The events of the Heresy are myth in the "current era" of 40k. They are things that are not even half-remembered, they are fragments of tales that have a seed of truth to them, in some way or another, but have grown so much in the telling that it's impossible for anyone, even old, decrepit, senile Bjorn the Fell-Handed, alive in M42 to say what *really* happened. They should have stayed that way. Adding specifics to these events really dispels some of the mystique of the setting, and invalidates a lot of backstory one could have with certain armies and Legions.

Kinda like how Wolverine should never have had a concrete backstory

 Jimsolo wrote:
I know, right?

God forbid Aaron Dembski-Bowden give a marginalized, one dimensional faction something as breathtakingly refreshing as a motive.

Having all that plot structure and character development shoved down my throat is so ridiculous. Why can't he get with the program and just write a couple hundred pages of vaguely homoerotic bolter porn?

He's not developing them beyond anything other than his new, best band of Mary Sue super soldiers "we didn't nothing wrong, no siree". There's a difference between poorly explaining the actions of a Chaos worshipping genocidal maniac and bolter porn (which I never liked). Chaos has always been written as pure evil, which corrupts the souls of men, weak men. You don't need any other reason, because there are none. Horus, Abaddon and other CSM/Renegades rebeled because they've got seduced with power, end of story. There is nothing to add here really, and trying to make them look sympathetic is like trying to exucse the actions of real world genocidal dictators. You can't and in the end, they will still remain just that - monsters.

 Xathrodox86 wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
I know, right?

God forbid Aaron Dembski-Bowden give a marginalized, one dimensional faction something as breathtakingly refreshing as a motive.

Having all that plot structure and character development shoved down my throat is so ridiculous. Why can't he get with the program and just write a couple hundred pages of vaguely homoerotic bolter porn?

He's not developing them beyond anything that his new, best band of Mary Sue super soldiers "we didn nothing wrong, no siree". There's a difference between poorly explaining the actions of a Chaos worshipping genocidal maniac and bolter porn (which I never liked). Chaos has always been written as pure evil, which corrupts the souls of men, weak men. You don't need any other reason, because there are none. Horus, Abaddon and other CSM/Renegades rebeled because they've got seduced with power, end of story. There is nothing to add here really, and trying to make them look sympathetic is like trying to exucse the actions of real world genocidal dictators. You can't and in the end, they will still remain just that - monsters.

Maybe that's what doesn't feel "right" about Talon of Horus, despite it being an awesome novel. I get that "you're never the bad guy in your own story" but reading ToH and even some of the HH novels, it almost makes it out like the Emperor really is the bad guy and that he had something going on that would have been really bad, just due to the Heresy he never got a chance to do it. ToH does make Abaddon and the Black Legion out to be not so much good guys but decidedly "anti-hero" in their approach. Like, you get the impression that Abaddon is not in any way, shape or form a nice person, but his reasons for wanting to unify the Traitor Legions goes from being a power-mad, genocidal despot to more "The Imperium used us as threw us away, they aren't worthy of the legacy we built for them" which doesn't suit because as you said, Chaos has always been pure evil and corrupting; the only motive needed was either revenge for losing the Heresy or simply "I want the world on a platter". It didn't need this sympathetic undertones that maybe, just maybe, he's right. There were already legions that had some inkling of that as their backstory; Iron Warriors spring to mind where they were literally treated like gak by everyone else and used as little more than fodder themselves, and it made them bitter and twisted and now they are cruel for cruelty's sake but also because they were tempered in it.

I mean it's still a good novel, but I can't get past this idea that it's trying to justify Chaos as something other than people who have literally sold their souls to the devil in exchange for power.

WayneTheGame wrote:

 Xathrodox86 wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
I know, right?

God forbid Aaron Dembski-Bowden give a marginalized, one dimensional faction something as breathtakingly refreshing as a motive.

Having all that plot structure and character development shoved down my throat is so ridiculous. Why can't he get with the program and just write a couple hundred pages of vaguely homoerotic bolter porn?

He's not developing them beyond anything that his new, best band of Mary Sue super soldiers "we didn nothing wrong, no siree". There's a difference between poorly explaining the actions of a Chaos worshipping genocidal maniac and bolter porn (which I never liked). Chaos has always been written as pure evil, which corrupts the souls of men, weak men. You don't need any other reason, because there are none. Horus, Abaddon and other CSM/Renegades rebeled because they've got seduced with power, end of story. There is nothing to add here really, and trying to make them look sympathetic is like trying to exucse the actions of real world genocidal dictators. You can't and in the end, they will still remain just that - monsters.

Maybe that's what doesn't feel "right" about Talon of Horus, despite it being an awesome novel. I get that "you're never the bad guy in your own story" but reading ToH and even some of the HH novels, it almost makes it out like the Emperor really is the bad guy and that he had something going on that would have been really bad, just due to the Heresy he never got a chance to do it. ToH does make Abaddon and the Black Legion out to be not so much good guys but decidedly "anti-hero" in their approach. Like, you get the impression that Abaddon is not in any way, shape or form a nice person, but his reasons for wanting to unify the Traitor Legions goes from being a power-mad, genocidal despot to more "The Imperium used us as threw us away, they aren't worthy of the legacy we built for them" which doesn't suit because as you said, Chaos has always been pure evil and corrupting; the only motive needed was either revenge for losing the Heresy or simply "I want the world on a platter". It didn't need this sympathetic undertones that maybe, just maybe, he's right. There were already legions that had some inkling of that as their backstory; Iron Warriors spring to mind where they were literally treated like gak by everyone else and used as little more than fodder themselves, and it made them bitter and twisted and now they are cruel for cruelty's sake but also because they were tempered in it.

I mean it's still a good novel, but I can't get past this idea that it's trying to justify Chaos as something other than people who have literally sold their souls to the devil in exchange for power.

Because evil people never have motivations other than being evil for evil's sake because they're evil, right?

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

 Xathrodox86 wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
I know, right?

God forbid Aaron Dembski-Bowden give a marginalized, one dimensional faction something as breathtakingly refreshing as a motive.

Having all that plot structure and character development shoved down my throat is so ridiculous. Why can't he get with the program and just write a couple hundred pages of vaguely homoerotic bolter porn?

He's not developing them beyond anything that his new, best band of Mary Sue super soldiers "we didn nothing wrong, no siree". There's a difference between poorly explaining the actions of a Chaos worshipping genocidal maniac and bolter porn (which I never liked). Chaos has always been written as pure evil, which corrupts the souls of men, weak men. You don't need any other reason, because there are none. Horus, Abaddon and other CSM/Renegades rebeled because they've got seduced with power, end of story. There is nothing to add here really, and trying to make them look sympathetic is like trying to exucse the actions of real world genocidal dictators. You can't and in the end, they will still remain just that - monsters.

Maybe that's what doesn't feel "right" about Talon of Horus, despite it being an awesome novel. I get that "you're never the bad guy in your own story" but reading ToH and even some of the HH novels, it almost makes it out like the Emperor really is the bad guy and that he had something going on that would have been really bad, just due to the Heresy he never got a chance to do it. ToH does make Abaddon and the Black Legion out to be not so much good guys but decidedly "anti-hero" in their approach. Like, you get the impression that Abaddon is not in any way, shape or form a nice person, but his reasons for wanting to unify the Traitor Legions goes from being a power-mad, genocidal despot to more "The Imperium used us as threw us away, they aren't worthy of the legacy we built for them" which doesn't suit because as you said, Chaos has always been pure evil and corrupting; the only motive needed was either revenge for losing the Heresy or simply "I want the world on a platter". It didn't need this sympathetic undertones that maybe, just maybe, he's right. There were already legions that had some inkling of that as their backstory; Iron Warriors spring to mind where they were literally treated like gak by everyone else and used as little more than fodder themselves, and it made them bitter and twisted and now they are cruel for cruelty's sake but also because they were tempered in it.

I mean it's still a good novel, but I can't get past this idea that it's trying to justify Chaos as something other than people who have literally sold their souls to the devil in exchange for power.

Because evil people never have motivations other than being evil for evil's sake because they're evil, right?

I don't think he said that. He said that Chaos worshippers are evil for evil's sake, because chaos has corrupted them. Not that all people ever are evil for evil's sake. The Tau, for example, earnestly believe what they are doing is good.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

 Xathrodox86 wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
I know, right?

God forbid Aaron Dembski-Bowden give a marginalized, one dimensional faction something as breathtakingly refreshing as a motive.

Having all that plot structure and character development shoved down my throat is so ridiculous. Why can't he get with the program and just write a couple hundred pages of vaguely homoerotic bolter porn?

He's not developing them beyond anything that his new, best band of Mary Sue super soldiers "we didn nothing wrong, no siree". There's a difference between poorly explaining the actions of a Chaos worshipping genocidal maniac and bolter porn (which I never liked). Chaos has always been written as pure evil, which corrupts the souls of men, weak men. You don't need any other reason, because there are none. Horus, Abaddon and other CSM/Renegades rebeled because they've got seduced with power, end of story. There is nothing to add here really, and trying to make them look sympathetic is like trying to exucse the actions of real world genocidal dictators. You can't and in the end, they will still remain just that - monsters.

Maybe that's what doesn't feel "right" about Talon of Horus, despite it being an awesome novel. I get that "you're never the bad guy in your own story" but reading ToH and even some of the HH novels, it almost makes it out like the Emperor really is the bad guy and that he had something going on that would have been really bad, just due to the Heresy he never got a chance to do it. ToH does make Abaddon and the Black Legion out to be not so much good guys but decidedly "anti-hero" in their approach. Like, you get the impression that Abaddon is not in any way, shape or form a nice person, but his reasons for wanting to unify the Traitor Legions goes from being a power-mad, genocidal despot to more "The Imperium used us as threw us away, they aren't worthy of the legacy we built for them" which doesn't suit because as you said, Chaos has always been pure evil and corrupting; the only motive needed was either revenge for losing the Heresy or simply "I want the world on a platter". It didn't need this sympathetic undertones that maybe, just maybe, he's right. There were already legions that had some inkling of that as their backstory; Iron Warriors spring to mind where they were literally treated like gak by everyone else and used as little more than fodder themselves, and it made them bitter and twisted and now they are cruel for cruelty's sake but also because they were tempered in it.

I mean it's still a good novel, but I can't get past this idea that it's trying to justify Chaos as something other than people who have literally sold their souls to the devil in exchange for power.

Because evil people never have motivations other than being evil for evil's sake because they're evil, right?

I don't think he said that. He said that Chaos worshippers are evil for evil's sake, because chaos has corrupted them. Not that all people ever are evil for evil's sake. The Tau, for example, earnestly believe what they are doing is good.

And I'm saying that's stupid fluff. That's literally Saturday morning cartoon villian levels of stupid.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

 Xathrodox86 wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
I know, right?

God forbid Aaron Dembski-Bowden give a marginalized, one dimensional faction something as breathtakingly refreshing as a motive.

Having all that plot structure and character development shoved down my throat is so ridiculous. Why can't he get with the program and just write a couple hundred pages of vaguely homoerotic bolter porn?

He's not developing them beyond anything that his new, best band of Mary Sue super soldiers "we didn nothing wrong, no siree". There's a difference between poorly explaining the actions of a Chaos worshipping genocidal maniac and bolter porn (which I never liked). Chaos has always been written as pure evil, which corrupts the souls of men, weak men. You don't need any other reason, because there are none. Horus, Abaddon and other CSM/Renegades rebeled because they've got seduced with power, end of story. There is nothing to add here really, and trying to make them look sympathetic is like trying to exucse the actions of real world genocidal dictators. You can't and in the end, they will still remain just that - monsters.

Maybe that's what doesn't feel "right" about Talon of Horus, despite it being an awesome novel. I get that "you're never the bad guy in your own story" but reading ToH and even some of the HH novels, it almost makes it out like the Emperor really is the bad guy and that he had something going on that would have been really bad, just due to the Heresy he never got a chance to do it. ToH does make Abaddon and the Black Legion out to be not so much good guys but decidedly "anti-hero" in their approach. Like, you get the impression that Abaddon is not in any way, shape or form a nice person, but his reasons for wanting to unify the Traitor Legions goes from being a power-mad, genocidal despot to more "The Imperium used us as threw us away, they aren't worthy of the legacy we built for them" which doesn't suit because as you said, Chaos has always been pure evil and corrupting; the only motive needed was either revenge for losing the Heresy or simply "I want the world on a platter". It didn't need this sympathetic undertones that maybe, just maybe, he's right. There were already legions that had some inkling of that as their backstory; Iron Warriors spring to mind where they were literally treated like gak by everyone else and used as little more than fodder themselves, and it made them bitter and twisted and now they are cruel for cruelty's sake but also because they were tempered in it.

I mean it's still a good novel, but I can't get past this idea that it's trying to justify Chaos as something other than people who have literally sold their souls to the devil in exchange for power.

Because evil people never have motivations other than being evil for evil's sake because they're evil, right?

I don't think he said that. He said that Chaos worshippers are evil for evil's sake, because chaos has corrupted them. Not that all people ever are evil for evil's sake. The Tau, for example, earnestly believe what they are doing is good.

And I'm saying that's stupid fluff. That's literally Saturday morning cartoon villian levels of stupid.

Oh yeah. I mean, it always struck me that Chaos basically has always been a super clichéd villain type. I have never personally been heavily engaged with them on the narrative level. "OH! Daemons who make our soldiers grow teeth and claws and lose their minds and sanity. Let's worship them because that can't possibly be ebil."


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Even the chaos gods are like:

"So, Tzeench, what are we gonna do tonight?"
"Same thing we do every night, Nurgle. Try to take over the MATERIAL UNIVERSE!"
"But isn't the material universe an anathema to our very forms?"
"WE WANTS IT!!!!!" *hisss*

I think basically you need to accept abbadon for what he is, a mustache twirling villain. The story needed that when it first got launched because its an easy way to have your bad guy character for a story.

This guy is evil for evils sake, go kill him for the emperor!

What the real problem is, we have seen now abbadon has had a lot of character development which makes the backstory of him no longer fit the meta lore, IE Mustache twirling villain. But since GW never advances the over arching 40k plot line, outside of the 41st millennia, abbadon is still stuck in this mustache twirling state and until the story advances to show he is more then that, its never going to happen.

That said, im not sure how you can show him as anything more then a mustache twirling villain considering Chaos is just, murder, kill, death.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

 Xathrodox86 wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
I know, right?

God forbid Aaron Dembski-Bowden give a marginalized, one dimensional faction something as breathtakingly refreshing as a motive.

Having all that plot structure and character development shoved down my throat is so ridiculous. Why can't he get with the program and just write a couple hundred pages of vaguely homoerotic bolter porn?

He's not developing them beyond anything that his new, best band of Mary Sue super soldiers "we didn nothing wrong, no siree". There's a difference between poorly explaining the actions of a Chaos worshipping genocidal maniac and bolter porn (which I never liked). Chaos has always been written as pure evil, which corrupts the souls of men, weak men. You don't need any other reason, because there are none. Horus, Abaddon and other CSM/Renegades rebeled because they've got seduced with power, end of story. There is nothing to add here really, and trying to make them look sympathetic is like trying to exucse the actions of real world genocidal dictators. You can't and in the end, they will still remain just that - monsters.

Maybe that's what doesn't feel "right" about Talon of Horus, despite it being an awesome novel. I get that "you're never the bad guy in your own story" but reading ToH and even some of the HH novels, it almost makes it out like the Emperor really is the bad guy and that he had something going on that would have been really bad, just due to the Heresy he never got a chance to do it. ToH does make Abaddon and the Black Legion out to be not so much good guys but decidedly "anti-hero" in their approach. Like, you get the impression that Abaddon is not in any way, shape or form a nice person, but his reasons for wanting to unify the Traitor Legions goes from being a power-mad, genocidal despot to more "The Imperium used us as threw us away, they aren't worthy of the legacy we built for them" which doesn't suit because as you said, Chaos has always been pure evil and corrupting; the only motive needed was either revenge for losing the Heresy or simply "I want the world on a platter". It didn't need this sympathetic undertones that maybe, just maybe, he's right. There were already legions that had some inkling of that as their backstory; Iron Warriors spring to mind where they were literally treated like gak by everyone else and used as little more than fodder themselves, and it made them bitter and twisted and now they are cruel for cruelty's sake but also because they were tempered in it.

I mean it's still a good novel, but I can't get past this idea that it's trying to justify Chaos as something other than people who have literally sold their souls to the devil in exchange for power.

Because evil people never have motivations other than being evil for evil's sake because they're evil, right?

I don't think he said that. He said that Chaos worshippers are evil for evil's sake, because chaos has corrupted them. Not that all people ever are evil for evil's sake. The Tau, for example, earnestly believe what they are doing is good.

And I'm saying that's stupid fluff. That's literally Saturday morning cartoon villian levels of stupid.

Oh yeah. I mean, it always struck me that Chaos basically has always been a super clichéd villain type. I have never personally been heavily engaged with them on the narrative level. "OH! Daemons who make our soldiers grow teeth and claws and lose their minds and sanity. Let's worship them because that can't possibly be ebil."

Do you have any idea how evil Chaos Space Marines are? They're the evilest! Everything they do is the opposite of good! For example, good people eat breakfast in the morning because it's the most important meal of the day. But instead of breakfast Chaos Space Marines eat pure evil. Or maybe they eat pure good. I dunno, which ever is more evil to eat. And while good people eat with their mouths and poop with their butts (often after they have their morning cup of coffee), Chaos Space Marines do the opposite because they are evil! So after they eat pure evil with their butts they buttdrink pure blood (which I'm pretty sure is the opposite of coffee) and then barf out Cheerios. And that's why they hate the Emperor.

Yes. That's basically how Chaos has been for like... ever. AFAIK even the vaunted 3.5 book was like "Many of them have forgotten who they were, but they have not forgotten their sworn vengeance upon the Imperium!" which sounds like the tagline for a B movie lol.

Even the chaos gods are like:

"So, Tzeench, what are we gonna do tonight?"
"Same thing we do every night, Nurgle. Try to take over the MATERIAL UNIVERSE!"
"But isn't the material universe an anathema to our very forms?"
"WE WANTS IT!!!!!" *hisss*

Do not bring ssshame on the gloriousss path of CHANGE!!!
*Behaves like a Tzeentch-fanboy again.....*

 Ankhalagon wrote:

Even the chaos gods are like:

"So, Tzeench, what are we gonna do tonight?"
"Same thing we do every night, Nurgle. Try to take over the MATERIAL UNIVERSE!"
"But isn't the material universe an anathema to our very forms?"
"WE WANTS IT!!!!!" *hisss*

Do not bring ssshame on the gloriousss path of CHANGE!!!
*Behaves like a Tzeentch-fanboy again.....*

Sorry! I just think it's very cartoon-villain-like to want to conquer the known universe because... REASONS! And to fight amongst themselves because uniting would make it 'too easy' just seems, well... cartoon-villain-like.

Chaos are the settings cartoon villains I guess.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yes. That's basically how Chaos has been for like... ever. AFAIK even the vaunted 3.5 book was like "Many of them have forgotten who they were, but they have not forgotten their sworn vengeance upon the Imperium!" which sounds like the tagline for a B movie lol.

The thing to remember though is that a lot of these guys turned against the Emperor out of loyalty to their primarch. And now they're damned. What's that like? To lose a great civil war and be forced to flee into hell? To try to survive? To feel your body changing and mutating? And through it all to one day hope for vengeance? There's more potential there that could be explored once you get past the "we do it for the evulz hurr."

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yes. That's basically how Chaos has been for like... ever. AFAIK even the vaunted 3.5 book was like "Many of them have forgotten who they were, but they have not forgotten their sworn vengeance upon the Imperium!" which sounds like the tagline for a B movie lol.

Yeah because 3rd edition fluff was the grimmest of the grimdark, cutting out the funny bits and nuance of goodness (with exception of Tau). Beating out even Rogue Trader at times, though at the least Chaos has gotten some semblance of it's old self back, Khorne used to have martial pride and the like rather then blood blood blood for example.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yes. That's basically how Chaos has been for like... ever. AFAIK even the vaunted 3.5 book was like "Many of them have forgotten who they were, but they have not forgotten their sworn vengeance upon the Imperium!" which sounds like the tagline for a B movie lol.

The thing to remember though is that a lot of these guys turned against the Emperor out of loyalty to their primarch. And now they're damned. What's that like? To lose a great civil war and be forced to flee into hell? To try to survive? To feel your body changing and mutating? And through it all to one day hope for vengeance? There's more potential there that could be explored once you get past the "we do it for the evulz hurr."

They turned out of loyalty to their primarch.... who allied with another primarch... who virus-bombed a planet for no reason. The Chaos primarchs did blatantly evil things during the Heresy, and if your loyal to the point of blindness... well, that's on you, I suppose.

Also, it's not like the Primarchs had good reasons to turn.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yes. That's basically how Chaos has been for like... ever. AFAIK even the vaunted 3.5 book was like "Many of them have forgotten who they were, but they have not forgotten their sworn vengeance upon the Imperium!" which sounds like the tagline for a B movie lol.

The thing to remember though is that a lot of these guys turned against the Emperor out of loyalty to their primarch. And now they're damned. What's that like? To lose a great civil war and be forced to flee into hell? To try to survive? To feel your body changing and mutating? And through it all to one day hope for vengeance? There's more potential there that could be explored once you get past the "we do it for the evulz hurr."

They turned out of loyalty to their primarch.... who allied with another primarch... who virus-bombed a planet for no reason. The Chaos primarchs did blatantly evil things during the Heresy, and if your loyal to the point of blindness... well, that's on you, I suppose.

Also, it's not like the Primarchs had good reasons to turn.

He didn't virus bomb a planet for no reason. He virus bombed a planet to eliminate his enemies. Because it was war. And in war people die. It's not like Imperium didn't do equally horrible things during the Great Crusade. Hell, the Emperor reprimanded a primarch for not being bloodthirsty enough. And that's what ultimately set in motion the events that caused the Heresy.