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 Kanluwen wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
im in agreement imo i want jink to work like this

Can only snap fire after
Only effected by stealth, shrouded, skilled rider.
Precision shots over ride jink
Blasts can not be jinked
Jink can never exceed 3+

None of the above.

Stealth and Shrouded are Cover Saves. Jink shouldn't be a Cover Save. It should literally be called a "Jink Save" and be its own thing, mitigated by things that would mitigate Jink Saves and not Ignores Cover.

But at the same time, woundnt it be harder to hit something thats jinking if its harder to see?

What part of "Jink shouldn't be a Cover Save" are you missing?

Stealth and Shrouded would be fine on Bikers or Jetbikes IF they no longer had Jink adding into it.

So then if we say its not longer a cover say, Then i can take m 3+ rerollable would be usable against flamers now, i mean im ok with that sure. Since its not a cover, all the ignore cover saves can no longer apply so its just a 3++ against anything.

Which is fine with me since the bike deathstar relies on a librarian to cast invisibility so its a snap shot either way.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
im in agreement imo i want jink to work like this

Can only snap fire after
Only effected by stealth, shrouded, skilled rider.
Precision shots over ride jink
Blasts can not be jinked
Jink can never exceed 3+

None of the above.

Stealth and Shrouded are Cover Saves. Jink shouldn't be a Cover Save. It should literally be called a "Jink Save" and be its own thing, mitigated by things that would mitigate Jink Saves and not Ignores Cover.

But at the same time, woundnt it be harder to hit something thats jinking if its harder to see?

What part of "Jink shouldn't be a Cover Save" are you missing?

Stealth and Shrouded would be fine on Bikers or Jetbikes IF they no longer had Jink adding into it.

So then if we say its not longer a cover say, Then i can take m 3+ rerollable would be usable against flamers now, i mean im ok with that sure. Since its not a cover, all the ignore cover saves can no longer apply so its just a 3++ against anything.

And under my proposal, they instead get shredded by anything with Interceptor(if a ground target) or Skyfire(if a Jetbike/Skimmer/Flyer).

Which is fine with me since the bike deathstar relies on a librarian to cast invisibility so its a snap shot either way.

Which is easily fixed by making it so that a Librarian casting Invisibility doesn't affect the whole unit anymore, instead affecting models within a 3" radius.

Why does Bikes and Jetbikes need to be so easy to hit? Maybe thats GW's intention is to make them a hard target for shooting?

Really it comes down to Eldar, DA and some SM bike shenanigans that go crazy over jink.

Honestly SM/DA want to be within charging range, so Flamers/Melee is easy to get in on them. If they dont have hit and run just tie them up. DA and SM must take their Non re-roll or 2+ cover b.c flamers and melee ignore that. SO now they are just Marine Bikes. Just watch out for the overwatch.

You can even shriek them down.....

PS: if you army is lacking (BA, Orcs, DE etc...) then take allies, that was the point of the Ally chart, they dont need to be BB to fill a hole.

So now it comes down to Eldar. so basically some of you are mad about eldar? Is this what this topic boils down to?

I have already said what I think needs to happen but agreed with the above.

Jink should be capped at 3+
Dark shroud should cost more
Should not be able to jink: ignore cover, template, blast, or precision shot.

Even just letting them get hit by blast needs them a lot.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Why does Bikes and Jetbikes need to be so easy to hit? Maybe thats GW's intention is to make them a hard target for shooting?

Really it comes down to Eldar, DA and some SM bike shenanigans that go crazy over jink.

Really it comes down to the fact that Jink, no matter who is using it, is a wildly abusive skill. The only difference between Dark Eldar and Orks Jinking versus Eldar Jetbikes or DA and White Scars is the fact that DE and Ork units aren't that great to begin with.

Honestly SM/DA want to be within charging range, so Flamers/Melee is easy to get in on them. If they dont have hit and run just tie them up. DA and SM must take their Non re-roll or 2+ cover b.c flamers and melee ignore that. SO now they are just Marine Bikes. Just watch out for the overwatch.

"They can't take their rerollable 2+ Cover Saves, they're just 3+ Armor Saves."

Oh well...in that case, that's super okay then.

You can even shriek them down.....

And you can shoot them to death with 158 Guardsmen firing Lasguns with everyone being issued First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire(316 shots at over half range, 474 shots at half range or lower) as part of an Emperor's Shield Infantry Company in a Cadian Detachment.
(PS--158 Guardsmen firing that many means you have taken no Special or Heavy Weapons, if you were able to take Sergeants and Officers with Lasguns still you would be looking at 175 models firing Lasguns at once)

That doesn't mean what you suggested is a reliable tactic, or even a good one for that matter.

PS: if you army is lacking (BA, Orcs, DE etc...) then take allies, that was the point of the Ally chart, they dont need to be BB to fill a hole.

Allies != "Ways to fill a hole in your army". Just because that's what they have essentially been boiled to down by the playerbase does not mean that was the intention.

So now it comes down to Eldar. so basically some of you are mad about eldar? Is this what this topic boils down to?

This topic boils down to the fact that Jink, as a Cover Save, is a wildly exploitable tool that only serves to highlight the difference between top tier books that have access to Jinkable units and lower tier books that have no effective counters to Jink when those same top tier books have wildly easy access to Psykers and abilities that make it so that the normal counters to Jinking(Good example here is the Wyvern) cannot be used since Snap Shot disallows for Blast weapons to even hit those targets.

Turning Jink into its own save that cannot be stacked with things like Stealth or Shrouded, while altering weapons that at the moment are lackluster(Interceptor and Skyfire) to counter one form of Jinking unit or the other(Interceptor v ground based Jinking units, Skyfire v air based Jinking units) kills two birds with one stone.

I like the Bolt Action method: you have "to hit" and "to wound" that is it (no armor).
Then you apply modifiers to the above with how hard it is to hit or how hard to hurt.

I agree "jink" is a direct impact on being able to hit the target.
+1 to hit or something like that (Marine hits on 4+ rather than 3+).

The more rolls you need to make, the less likely it amounts to anything.
I tend to enjoy models getting remove more than the mountain of dice rolling to get there.

Making jink a modification to the hit roll?

Sounds good on paper but in reality not a good idea.

If you are an ork, your hitting on 5s if we say jinking is a -1 to hit you need a six, what about skilled rider? A -2, now orks can never hit.

The jink save does not need to be removed. Like I said, make it so you can't jink a blast and it's good, all armies have access to blast weapons all armies have a way to deal with it.

The notion that it's some super broken op cheese of all cheese is just silly, poison ignore cover your screwed. Ignore any cover they are screwed, melee they are screwed. The problems all stem from them getting stacked buffs from other various units and powers, you address those issues the jink problem will solve itself.

The main offenders are eldar and DA. Double or even triple the cost of the dark shroud and you can address the dark angels one. Eldar I can't speak for how to address it becuase I don't actually play an eldar army myself so I don't know their ins and outs but I big issue with their bikes is not so much jink as it is scatter lasers but that's another thread.

As to orks having a hard time, that's not a jink issue, that's a GW has not given them any love and they are massively under powered, the army as a whole is broken not jink.

Yeah +1/-1 to hit modifiers don't work so great in a D6 based system. Decent for the odd unique special rule, but nothing so universal as Jink.

I'm actually really liking the suggestions that Jink is separate save. It's a simple, elegant solution that makes a lot of sense both in terms of game mechanics and fairness and in terms of the background/reality.

I mean, in 40k you have several things that can make it harder for you to get killed by a shot, represented by in-game rules. You have the armour you're wearing (armour save), any weird psychic force fields (invul saves), the fact that you're hard to see because of cover or because it's dark or whatever (cover saves, stealth/shrouded). In 40k, the game mechanics dictate that you select one of these things to help you avoid incoming fire. I see no reason why "adopting evasive manoeuvres" (jink save) cannot be added to this list. And, by this logic, you can't say that "oh dodging around in the dark makes you even harder to hit, therefore Jink should stack with Stealth" because then by that logic you should be able to take an armour, invul and cover save just because you're in power armour, wearing an iron halo and are stood behind a tree. The game mechanics dictate you only choose one of those things.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Why does Bikes and Jetbikes need to be so easy to hit? Maybe thats GW's intention is to make them a hard target for shooting?

Really it comes down to Eldar, DA and some SM bike shenanigans that go crazy over jink.

Really it comes down to the fact that Jink, no matter who is using it, is a wildly abusive skill. The only difference between Dark Eldar and Orks Jinking versus Eldar Jetbikes or DA and White Scars is the fact that DE and Ork units aren't that great to begin with.

Honestly SM/DA want to be within charging range, so Flamers/Melee is easy to get in on them. If they dont have hit and run just tie them up. DA and SM must take their Non re-roll or 2+ cover b.c flamers and melee ignore that. SO now they are just Marine Bikes. Just watch out for the overwatch.

"They can't take their rerollable 2+ Cover Saves, they're just 3+ Armor Saves."

Oh well...in that case, that's super okay then.

You can even shriek them down.....

And you can shoot them to death with 158 Guardsmen firing Lasguns with everyone being issued First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire(316 shots at over half range, 474 shots at half range or lower) as part of an Emperor's Shield Infantry Company in a Cadian Detachment.
(PS--158 Guardsmen firing that many means you have taken no Special or Heavy Weapons, if you were able to take Sergeants and Officers with Lasguns still you would be looking at 175 models firing Lasguns at once)

That doesn't mean what you suggested is a reliable tactic, or even a good one for that matter.

PS: if you army is lacking (BA, Orcs, DE etc...) then take allies, that was the point of the Ally chart, they dont need to be BB to fill a hole.

Allies != "Ways to fill a hole in your army". Just because that's what they have essentially been boiled to down by the playerbase does not mean that was the intention.

So now it comes down to Eldar. so basically some of you are mad about eldar? Is this what this topic boils down to?

This topic boils down to the fact that Jink, as a Cover Save, is a wildly exploitable tool that only serves to highlight the difference between top tier books that have access to Jinkable units and lower tier books that have no effective counters to Jink when those same top tier books have wildly easy access to Psykers and abilities that make it so that the normal counters to Jinking(Good example here is the Wyvern) cannot be used since Snap Shot disallows for Blast weapons to even hit those targets.

Turning Jink into its own save that cannot be stacked with things like Stealth or Shrouded, while altering weapons that at the moment are lackluster(Interceptor and Skyfire) to counter one form of Jinking unit or the other(Interceptor v ground based Jinking units, Skyfire v air based Jinking units) kills two birds with one stone.

k, I played DE and Nids for all of 6th and so far all the way up in 7th till 5 months ago I just started Harlequins and Corsairs.

As a Nids and DE player (no eldar allies, pure DE) going against, BA (3 Stormravens) DA, SM, Tau, Necrons blah blah all net lists mind you.

I dont see anything wrong with jink, there are answers to it, if you dont want to fill a couple spots in your army for that answer then thats your fault.

There are also a few powers that go around Jink.

Now. Would I be appose to a change? No, but not b.c it is OP AF, but honestly sense day 1 I wished it was a 4+ "invul" and not a cover save. But I dont want this for "OMG its op" reason, but because nothing will stop it and to be more fluffy to show you wasnt hit, instead terrain took the bullet for you...

Exalted

Besides with recent FaQ jink, DE look fun as hell to play now, load up the party barges and jink the whole game and fire out of open top.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

k, I played DE and Nids for all of 6th and so far all the way up in 7th till 5 months ago I just started Harlequins and Corsairs.

Okay, and?

As a Nids and DE player (no eldar allies, pure DE) going against, BA (3 Stormravens) DA, SM, Tau, Necrons blah blah all net lists mind you.

Once again:
And?

I dont see anything wrong with jink, there are answers to it, if you dont want to fill a couple spots in your army for that answer then thats your fault.

That's not the point that was made. You attempted to say that Allies can negate Jink. Great. You're not "filling a couple spots in your army" as an answer for Jink, you're having to bring in a second army entirely to negate Jink.

There are also a few powers that go around Jink.

Which is great, until someone shuts down your Psyker phase by killing your Psykers.

Now. Would I be appose to a change? No, but not b.c it is OP AF, but honestly sense day 1 I wished it was a 4+ "invul" and not a cover save. But I dont want this for "OMG its op" reason, but because nothing will stop it and to be more fluffy to show you wasnt hit, instead terrain took the bullet for you...

Take a few moments to actually spell things out. It isn't hard to type out "because".

In any regards, no. Jink should not be an Invulnerable Save either. It being rolled into any other save is dumb and anyone advocating for it to be rolled within another save category needs to seriously rethink their reasonings.

I'm sure it's never occurred to you that Harlequin(and Eldar in general) have access to Sanctic Daemonology and the ability to cast "Sanctuary"(+1 to Invulnerable Saves and Daemons within 12" of the Psyker treat all terrain as Dangerous Terrain).

You want to keep Jink in, fine. But it should NEVER be modifiable by any non-Expert Rider skill. All the talk yourself and others have made about Template weapons and other nonsense is just "L2P" tripe.

You see it differently, I dont feel there is a problem, thats my 0.02 so leave it as that.

Go ahead and keep arguing.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
I have already said what I think needs to happen but agreed with the above.

Jink should be capped at 3+
Dark shroud should cost more
Should not be able to jink: ignore cover, template, blast, or precision shot.

Even just letting them get hit by blast needs them a lot.

I would agree with this, except for ignores cover. A Tau laser pointer isn't really going to do squat if you don't know where the vehicle will be when the bullet gets there.

Jink is the perfect thing to become "ignores ignores-cover."

I would personally love a real AV14 over our crappy AV12 Skimmers with Jink.


Jink is so useless most of the time, it's supposed to compensate the lack of armor, but then it's 100% useless when in cover, doesn't work when immobilized, steals most of your firepower when you use it, etc.


As a Jink user, I wish it were separate from cover, so that my supposed durability boost was really exactly that.

I also wish it worked when immobilized, just like AV14 does.

And definitely, whatever the defensive mechanism is supposed to be, it shouldn't be a choice between defensive and offensive modes, because that's not a defensive mechanism, that's a special ability which should probably be reserved to units that are supposed to have a defensive vs offensive mode.

Going back to one of the points in the original post - ie, you have the same chance of hitting a Titan as you do to hit a Dark Eldar bike. This is a really good point. It should be way more difficult to hit the DE bike.

One way to do it is how Flames of War does it. In FOW, the To Hit roll depends on the target's experience level - not the firing unit's. E.g. to hit a target that's rated Trained is 3+, to hit a Veteran is 4+ etc. The rationale is that the more experienced a warrior is, the better he is at using cover or not exposing himself to enemy fire, and thus the more difficult it is to hit him.

The To Hit roll is modified by range and cover, as well as whether the target moved or fired in the previous turn or not. So to hit a Trained target at more than half-range is 4+. If that same target is in cover, then it's 5+. If that target was stationery or did not shoot and gone to ground last turn, then it's 6+ etc - forgive me if I got some of this wrong, been awhile since my FOW models saw action, but that's the general idea.

It works pretty well, but it's a totally different mechanic from 40k

I run dark eldars and orks and i have to say without jinking (especially the DE) these armies don't stand a chance... maybe orks can work if spamming vehicles but bikes are among our best units and still we're an average (if not weak) army. What is not balanced are some invulns extremely high but dirty cheap, superheavies and models with T7/8 that cost less than 500 points, formations that allow a lot of free transports for armies that shouldn't be hordes, psychic phases with 30+ dice and shooting phase with 100+ shots with bs3/4/5. Also the D weapons should be banned, or become an option only in games at 2500 points or higher. The jink special rule has also a lot of sense as it should be very difficult to hit some very fast units unless you target them with some wall of fire o some special weapons, that's why the ignores cover special rule also is acceptable, but shouldn't be abused.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 spunkybass wrote:
Going back to one of the points in the original post - ie, you have the same chance of hitting a Titan as you do to hit a Dark Eldar bike. This is a really good point. It should be way more difficult to hit the DE bike.

I agree and i think that superheavies and gargantuan monstrous creatures should be hit at 2+ regardless of the BS of the shooter, as they're so huge that even a cave man that found a futuristic weapon can't miss them. Or it can be consider the distance from the shooting unit and the big target, if under some range (like melta guns for example) everyone can hit them at 2+.

The one that makes me laugh is "To wound" rolls. You roll to hit, then you have to roll to wound, then your opponent rolls an armour save...

Except, from an objective point of view that makes no sense whatsoever. Wounding rolls should be done away with as they're simply arbitrary and completely redundant. You roll to hit and pass. Great, now your opponent rolls their armour save. Pass? Great, not wounded/dead, armour stopped it. Failed? They're dead/wounded accordingly.

All wounding rolls do is add yet another roll to lessen the attacker's odds of a successful attack. Having played Cold War Commander and rolled for hits only, getting rid of wound rolls would be absolutely the way to go and would shave so much time off of games from getting rid of otherwise unnecessary stat checking and rolling.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Why does Bikes and Jetbikes need to be so easy to hit? Maybe thats GW's intention is to make them a hard target for shooting?

Really it comes down to Eldar, DA and some SM bike shenanigans that go crazy over jink.

Honestly SM/DA want to be within charging range, so Flamers/Melee is easy to get in on them. If they dont have hit and run just tie them up. DA and SM must take their Non re-roll or 2+ cover b.c flamers and melee ignore that. SO now they are just Marine Bikes. Just watch out for the overwatch.

You can even shriek them down.....

PS: if you army is lacking (BA, Orcs, DE etc...) then take allies, that was the point of the Ally chart, they dont need to be BB to fill a hole.

So now it comes down to Eldar. so basically some of you are mad about eldar? Is this what this topic boils down to?

I have yet to come across a DA/SM player who wants to get his bikes close to my flamers/melee....ever. They usually just shoot around the field and kill the most vulnerable aspects of my force and then kill the infantry as they go.

And your suggestion for BA, Ork (Not fething Orc), and DE is garbage. An army shouldn't have to take another army to fill in a hole.

 metallifan wrote:


All wounding rolls do is add yet another roll to lessen the attacker's odds of a successful attack. Having played Cold War Commander and rolled for hits only, getting rid of wound rolls would be absolutely the way to go and would shave so much time off of games from getting rid of otherwise unnecessary stat checking and rolling.

This isn't real life. There are plenty of things that can take a blast from a frag grenade and fight on perfectly well, armour or no.

The only way to remove the wound roll would be to instead give everything an appropriate amount of wounds, but the granularity required would be insane and at that point you may as well play RPGs.

Removing it would be kicking the Dark Eladr while they are down.
Having jink be affected by unit type would be better (IMO)

Have a 5+ base.
+1 If a Fast vehicle/Zooming Flyer/Swooping monstrous creature/ Eldar jetbike (Note that I also believe that craftworld jetbikes should be knocked down to a 4+ armour save)
-1 For Tank unit type and 4+ HP vehicles

Jbz.. if jink saves go, you'll get AV12 and we'll get AV13 as Eldar.

morgoth wrote:
Jbz.. if jink saves go, you'll get AV12 and we'll get AV13 as Eldar.

From where
And how would that help the Reaver Jetbikes that are completely reliant on jink to survive?

Jbz` wrote:

morgoth wrote:
Jbz.. if jink saves go, you'll get AV12 and we'll get AV13 as Eldar.

From where
And how would that help the Reaver Jetbikes that are completely reliant on jink to survive?

From the only reason we have inferior AV is because GW wanted us to be resilient but not in a dumb numeric way like the IoM.

And yes, it wouldn't do much for bikes.

Honestly Reaver Jetbikes should be Armor 4, the DE book is 1 less armor save across the board to be more fluffy.

Even tho we pay the same points......... But but but we have fleet and Night vision no way is that better than Batlefocus or ANYTHING ELSE all Eldar ken get, even Tau or SM etc....

Jink is fine. The problem is not enough keeps units alive. It's always auto delete. Anything that makes anything else survivable vs eldar and tau guns I'm all for.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Honestly Reaver Jetbikes should be Armor 4, the DE book is 1 less armor save across the board to be more fluffy.

Even tho we pay the same points......... But but but we have fleet and Night vision no way is that better than Batlefocus or ANYTHING ELSE all Eldar ken get, even Tau or SM etc....

Except we don't. Our bikes don't, our hammer of wrath bikes absolutely must make it base to base in combat or they'll lose the combat and pray you don't roll super low on cluster caltrops (like double 1's) and our covens units don't have fleet. We don't have strength 10 much less str D weapons. Eldar have them up the butthole and that's not even considering their gargantuans.

I like how taking away jink saves doesn't do much for a lot of OP armies but it would absolutely cripple reavers and that's one of the few non-coven units worth taking.

Nobody in their right mind would remove jink saves without replacing them with another resilience mechanism.
That applies to everything that currently has jink.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Honestly Reaver Jetbikes should be Armor 4, the DE book is 1 less armor save across the board to be more fluffy.

Even tho we pay the same points......... But but but we have fleet and Night vision no way is that better than Batlefocus or ANYTHING ELSE all Eldar ken get, even Tau or SM etc....

Except we don't. Our bikes don't, our hammer of wrath bikes absolutely must make it base to base in combat or they'll lose the combat and pray you don't roll super low on cluster caltrops (like double 1's) and our covens units don't have fleet. We don't have strength 10 much less str D weapons. Eldar have them up the butthole and that's not even considering their gargantuans.

I like how taking away jink saves doesn't do much for a lot of OP armies but it would absolutely cripple reavers and that's one of the few non-coven units worth taking.

The entire point is that DE bikes are 16ppm, eldar are 17ppm

LITERALLY 1ppm difference and DE bikes are 5+ vs 3+, weaker rules/guns/options/upgrade/formations etc...
but... but... DE ones have skill rider.....

The Shadow wrote:Yeah +1/-1 to hit modifiers don't work so great in a D6 based system. Decent for the odd unique special rule, but nothing so universal as Jink.

I'm actually really liking the suggestions that Jink is separate save. It's a simple, elegant solution that makes a lot of sense both in terms of game mechanics and fairness and in terms of the background/reality.

I mean, in 40k you have several things that can make it harder for you to get killed by a shot, represented by in-game rules. You have the armour you're wearing (armour save), any weird psychic force fields (invul saves), the fact that you're hard to see because of cover or because it's dark or whatever (cover saves, stealth/shrouded). In 40k, the game mechanics dictate that you select one of these things to help you avoid incoming fire. I see no reason why "adopting evasive manoeuvres" (jink save) cannot be added to this list. And, by this logic, you can't say that "oh dodging around in the dark makes you even harder to hit, therefore Jink should stack with Stealth" because then by that logic you should be able to take an armour, invul and cover save just because you're in power armour, wearing an iron halo and are stood behind a tree. The game mechanics dictate you only choose one of those things.

Eh, are you sure about that? Because I've played several D6 based games whose entire mechanic for shooting boiled down to "+/- X to your to-hit roll". For the sake of example (and because I remember the rules the best) Brikwars had a really nifty system where the roll was modified by everything from range to how fast both parties were going to the size of the target to how much of the target was visible and a couple other more minor tweaks. And in spite of how complex those rules were, it still went faster than it does in 40k's system of "an elite marine has exactly the same chances of scoring a hit on a house-sized tank sitting 2 yards away as he does a lone guardsman at the very edge of bolter range".

EDIT: I'm not saying 40k should move to such a system (the only reason brikwars got away with having infantry weapons almost auto-hit against anything bigger than a light vehicle was because the mechanics meant that infantry scale anti-tank weapons basically didn't exist), just that it can be done without breaking or over-complicating the system.

40K used to have a system just like that...and while people bemoan the "huge difficulty" of adjusting your D6 roll to hit, it made far more logical sense than the subsequent introduction of cover saves and jink saves.

Initially you suffered a penalty to hit an enemy model if it was in cover, and/or moving fast. Conversely, vehicles suffered a penalty for firing if they moved over X" (i.e. they're going so fast it's tough for them to engage targets).

Somehow people thought this was just far too demanding and difficult so we went around our ass to get to our elbow and ended up oddly re-instituting the idea of cover saves and jink saves and then difficulty shooting IF you jinked and all this other silly crap.

In a progression of a turn it made more logical sense to use the old method.