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 mrhappyface wrote:
If you get bored torturing people, you aren't being creative enough.

Demons are literally immortal.

The options for torture are finite.

Eventually they'll run out of new things to try.

 Pouncey wrote:

The options for torture are finite.

We have a finite amount of ways to torture people but Daemons are stuff of the warp with infinite power when it comes to torturing the body and/or the mind. Once again, if you cannot fathom these infinite possibilities then you aren't being creative enough.

The ruinious powers because I would end up worshiping Tzeench

Lol so much heresy on this thread. The comissriat would be ashamed to hear of such low morale. I feel like we are all due for an execution in our near future lololol

What ever happened to dying gloriously for the throne?

I'd probably prefer facing the Ruinous Powers as at least there is an off chance they will let me join them.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

The options for torture are finite.

We have a finite amount of ways to torture people but Daemons are stuff of the warp with infinite power when it comes to torturing the body and/or the mind. Once again, if you cannot fathom these infinite possibilities then you aren't being creative enough.

Many of those ways are in fact very similar to others.

The same way that there are many ways to waterboard someone IRL, but they're all similar enough that experimenting with the particulars isn't interesting enough to a sadist to consider them different.


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 sudojoe wrote:
Lol so much heresy on this thread. The comissriat would be ashamed to hear of such low morale. I feel like we are all due for an execution in our near future lololol

What ever happened to dying gloriously for the throne?

The Imperium is not a place worth dying for.

It's a place worth dying to try to get away from.

 Pouncey wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

The options for torture are finite.

We have a finite amount of ways to torture people but Daemons are stuff of the warp with infinite power when it comes to torturing the body and/or the mind. Once again, if you cannot fathom these infinite possibilities then you aren't being creative enough.

Many of those ways are in fact very similar to others.

The same way that there are many ways to waterboard someone IRL, but they're all similar enough that experimenting with the particulars isn't interesting enough to a sadist to consider them different.

You greatly underestimate sadists. Sadism is causing personalisef pain: first I will select the method of torture, next I will personalise it for my chosen recipient and finally I shall impliment my craft, making tweeks to the process as a go along. With such a vast number of subjects the possibilities are endless.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

The options for torture are finite.

We have a finite amount of ways to torture people but Daemons are stuff of the warp with infinite power when it comes to torturing the body and/or the mind. Once again, if you cannot fathom these infinite possibilities then you aren't being creative enough.

Many of those ways are in fact very similar to others.

The same way that there are many ways to waterboard someone IRL, but they're all similar enough that experimenting with the particulars isn't interesting enough to a sadist to consider them different.

You greatly underestimate sadists. Sadism is causing personalisef pain: first I will select the method of torture, next I will personalise it for my chosen recipient and finally I shall impliment my craft, making tweeks to the process as a go along. With such a vast number of subjects the possibilities are endless.

Are you speaking from personal experience?

It is extrapolated from the tamer form of torture: teasing.

I have not yet had the pleasure of full blown torture I am affraid. Not that I would carry out torture in the glorious name of Slaanesh...

 mrhappyface wrote:
It is extrapolated from the tamer form of torture: teasing.

I have not yet had the pleasure of full blown torture I am affraid. Not that I would carry out torture in the glorious name of Slaanesh...

Of course you wouldn't. Slaanesh is fictional. Doing anything in hir name would be as absurd as doing something in the same of Emperor Palpatine.

Even if Tyranids eat your body, your soul is still going to be ripped apart by daemons in the warp so technically daemons are better as they kill you once for good rather than dying twice if the Tyranids ate you.

Unless your soul is somehow drawn to the light of the God-Emperor and he eats it instead, which is probably less traumatic.

Pouncey wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
It is extrapolated from the tamer form of torture: teasing.

I have not yet had the pleasure of full blown torture I am affraid. Not that I would carry out torture in the glorious name of Slaanesh...

Of course you wouldn't. Slaanesh is fictional. Doing anything in hir name would be as absurd as doing something in the same of Emperor Palpatine.

Yes, of course I wouldn't kill in the name of a fictional character... That would be silly...

Loopstah wrote:Even if Tyranids eat your body, your soul is still going to be ripped apart by daemons in the warp so technically daemons are better as they kill you once for good rather than dying twice if the Tyranids ate you.

If Daemons killed you they would claim your soul so thst they may torture it later.

 mrhappyface wrote:
Yes, of course I wouldn't kill in the name of a fictional character... That would be silly...

Um.

I'm the schizophrenic here. You probably aren't.

Why am I the one trying to convince you what is real and what isn't?

If Daemons killed you they would claim your soul so thst they may torture it later.

So basically no difference then? You die by Demons, Chaos Demons torture your soul in the Warp. You die by Nids, Chaos Demons torture your soul in the Warp.

So essentially what happens to your soul after you die in battle is the same either way.

And, I mean, if we're gonna argue things like, "Well, maybe what would happen is that you'd die this particular way that's not so bad," I'm gonna argue that the variety of bad deaths from either Demons or Tyranids range so widely that there's enough overlap to argue that one particular end from one side is better than one particular end from the other side, so it doesn't matter which side you choose to die by.

 Pouncey wrote:

I'm the schizophrenic here. You probably aren't.

No, I have different 'problems'. Although I don't see them as such.

 Pouncey wrote:

If Daemons killed you they would claim your soul so thst they may torture it later.

So basically no difference then? You die by Demons, Chaos Demons torture your soul in the Warp. You die by Nids, Chaos Demons torture your soul in the Warp.

So essentially what happens to your soul after you die in battle is the same either way.

And, I mean, if we're gonna argue things like, "Well, maybe what would happen is that you'd die this particular way that's not so bad," I'm gonna argue that the variety of bad deaths from either Demons or Tyranids range so widely that there's enough overlap to argue that one particular end from one side is better than one particular end from the other side, so it doesn't matter which side you choose to die by.

Would the shadow in the warp prevent Chaos from taking your soul though? If it prevents psychic connections to the warp then maybe it prevents souls from entering the warp.

I'd pick Chaos Daemons, I'm going to die either way. May as well go out with the honour of fighting side by side with the GreyKnights some of the Imperium's greatest warriors!

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

I'm the schizophrenic here. You probably aren't.

No, I have different 'problems'. Although I don't see them as such.

Fair point.

Moving on...

 Pouncey wrote:

If Daemons killed you they would claim your soul so thst they may torture it later.

So basically no difference then? You die by Demons, Chaos Demons torture your soul in the Warp. You die by Nids, Chaos Demons torture your soul in the Warp.

So essentially what happens to your soul after you die in battle is the same either way.

And, I mean, if we're gonna argue things like, "Well, maybe what would happen is that you'd die this particular way that's not so bad," I'm gonna argue that the variety of bad deaths from either Demons or Tyranids range so widely that there's enough overlap to argue that one particular end from one side is better than one particular end from the other side, so it doesn't matter which side you choose to die by.

Would the shadow in the warp prevent Chaos from taking your soul though? If it prevents psychic connections to the warp then maybe it prevents souls from entering the warp.

Maybe. Tyranids themselves have psykers though.

Also, yeah, it could work that way.

DOES it, though?


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 TheWizard wrote:
I'd pick Chaos Daemons, I'm going to die either way. May as well go out with the honour of fighting side by side with the GreyKnights some of the Imperium's greatest warriors!

I think we have different opinions on the Grey Knights.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Cothonian wrote:
Well... at least fighting Tyranids, I'd be fighting something that can in fact be killed.

Not like Chaos demons where merely looking at them is enough to drive you to the point of ripping yourself and everyone around you apart... (can't remember which 40k rule book that was from, but that did happen for at least one Guard outpost.)

So you're saying a single Chaos Daemon is sufficient to defeat any number of Imperial Guardsmen who simply verify its presence visually?


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Wouldn't they just, like, issue you a blindfold of some sort and tell you to walk toward the noise of battle and shoot randomly in the general direction of anything that didn't sound like a human?

And then watch their army dissipate and just call in the Grey Knights who can look at demons without committing fratricide?

No, not saying that any single demon. That was a unique case where some sort of Greater Demon Prince thing appeared, again, I cannot remember the specific story (and again... it was in one of the two books that came with the BRB.) Just with my luck that is the one thing I'd actually encounter.

 Cothonian wrote:
No, not saying that any single demon. That was a unique case where some sort of Greater Demon Prince thing appeared, again, I cannot remember the specific story (and again... it was in one of the two books that came with the BRB.) Just with my luck that is the one thing I'd actually encounter.

Uh-huh.

So basically, any time Chaos can actually manifest one of these things onto an Imperial world, all ordinary humans cannot offer any serious resistance, and anyone capable of fighting back will have to be more like a Sister of Battle (they are more resistant to the effects of Chaos than ordinary humans, or even most Space Marines, or even Grey Knights in full armor at times. Remember the Blood Tide incident? Grey Knights needed extra protection. Sisters of Battle survived just fine in their standard equipment.), or at least a Space Marine of some sort.

That was certainly not the ONLY time it showed up on an Imperial world. If it can only show up once every 500 years, that means it's shown up 20 times in the 10,000 years since the Horus Heresy.

And it damned well isn't unique, so there are absolutely more of them with similar capabilities.

I would rather fight the Ruinous Powers. Despite all the Warp crap, they can be fought and beaten like any other military force. Daemons can be banished. The Imperium is almost geared toward Chaos being "Enemy Number One", and has ways to counter them. The Imperium has held the line against chaos for over 10,000 years.


The Tyranids are different. They are like a force of nature. A material force like no other. They have no fear. You can't goad them into making strategic or tactical blunders. You cannot communicate, negotiate, or reason with them. They can't be banished with glorified parlor tricks. They cannot be corrupted. They are an anathema to the Warp.


And they just keep coming.


Just about every canon force in Warhammer 40k has suffered defeats inflicted upon them by the all-consuming Great Devourer, including the Daemons of the Dark Gods. If there would be any winners in this age of decay and endless war, the Tyranids (along with DA ORKZ ) are at the top of that list.

 oldravenman3025 wrote:
The Tyranids are different. They are like a force of nature. A material force like no other. They have no fear. You can't goad them into making strategic or tactical blunders. You cannot communicate, negotiate, or reason with them. They can't be banished with glorified parlor tricks. They cannot be corrupted. They are an anathema to the Warp.

So they're like humans who:

-are willing to take losses to the point none of their soldiers consider their deaths a sacrifice at all
-are too intelligent to fall for the enemy's tricks
-do not speak the same language as their alien enemies at all and have not bothered to even try
-are immune to glorified parlor tricks
-are immune to corruption, whatever that means
-their mere existence tells the Warp to feth off in their general vicinity

So basically they're like people IRL in a lot of ways.

Humans IRL have been willing to die performing human wave attacks on machine gun nests while armed with farm equipment, and don't care if they die doing it. Imagine WW1 if the troops didn't care about being gunned down by machine guns. That has HAPPENED IRL when dictatorships get so bad their people consider being shot to death better than living under the government's rule.

Humans IRL are intelligent enough to consider the possibility of enemy deception and avoid reacting the way the enemy wants them to.

Human languages are different enough from each other you need a translator who knows both languages to interpret for you sometimes. Alien languages would be even MORE different than that, and until a human learns an alien language, or vice-versa, no interpreters will exist. Frankly, human larynxes may not be CAPABLE of speaking alien languages even if we DID learn them, and vice-versa.

Humans IRL are pretty much immune to stage magicians' magics, and generally are amused by them, rather than believing they are literally magic. You said parlor tricks, right?

A valuable trait in humans IRL is being incorruptible. Some of us are. If you mean by Chaos, well, there's the Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle, so, yeah, we can do that too. We've never tested if that would work IRL, because we've never encountered Chaos IRL to see if it would. Demons exist in some mythologies, and in those mythologies there are those who are so resistant to their corruption that they are considered incorruptible. Consider the story of Job for an easy example.

Humans IRL don't have a version of the Warp to try out being anathema to it, but have you heard of the concept of... I don't remember what they're called, but they're basically anti-psykers. They're one of the types of Assassins. So humans can do that too.

I like my chances with daemons...just not with the Grey Knights around. Even if we win those cowards will pop me in the back of the head.

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
I like my chances with daemons...just not with the Grey Knights around. Even if we win those cowards will pop me in the back of the head.

You're an Imperial Guardsman and you like your chances?

You ever read IG lore that states their numbers of casualties?

They consider 50,000 soldiers dying in ONE BATTLE to be "light casualties".

Being an Imperial Guardsman is like being a soldier on the front lines during World War 1. Very, very much like that in fact, given how often the IG relies on, literally, TRENCH WARFARE.

You ever watch a movie about WW1? Whatever movie it is, unless it was a documentary, the reality is worse than what they're showing you. Even with a documentary, living it was worse than watching the documentary.

You saw Pearl Harbor, a movie that was considered to be so much bullcrap that it pissed off both American and Japanese veterans alike? The opening scene of that movie has a rather abusive father being violent with his kid who just took a cropduster for a joyride. The kid eventually calls his father a "dirty German" (it's a movie about a time during which that language was acceptable), and instantly the father just stops, taken aback, and says in a very different tone of voice, "I fought the Germans... I fought them in the trenches... I pray to God no one ever has to see the things I saw."


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You might survive the war. Imperial Guardsmen do. If you do, you will not be the same anymore. It will change you, and leave you with nightmares.

This is in fact one of the things IG fans find appealing about the faction. They go into a horrible, horrible situation, and they stand fast in the face of the galaxy's worst horrors, and die where they stand.

Balls and ovaries of neutronium, those lads and lasses of the IG.

Compared to everything else in the 40k universe, and tasked with a choice, yeah, I like a million to one shot to survive over a trillion to one shot. You can't really beat the Nids head on and being eaten is something I'd actively like to avoid.

Daemons can be beaten, they are surprisingly less numerous then Nids, and are insubstantial and waver in and out of existence. People have killed them with prayer and sharpened sticks and 'holy' symbols. So the 'chance' to survive IS greater. Again as long as the GK aren't around cause even if you DO win out, they cap you ANYWAY and take all the credit and glory.

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
Compared to everything else in the 40k universe, and tasked with a choice, yeah, I like a million to one shot to survive over a trillion to one shot. You can't really beat the Nids head on and being eaten is something I'd actively like to avoid.

Daemons can be beaten, they are surprisingly less numerous then Nids, and are insubstantial and waver in and out of existence. People have killed them with prayer and sharpened sticks and 'holy' symbols. So the 'chance' to survive IS greater. Again as long as the GK aren't around cause even if you DO win out, they cap you ANYWAY and take all the credit and glory.

The chance to survive exists, yes. No matter how unlikely the event, it'll probably eventually happen if you try it enough times. I mean, if you just bounce a basketball at a wall, it's not actually impossible for the atoms to line up in such a way that the ball passes right through the wall by random chance. It's just so unlikely that you shouldn't ever expect it to happen during your lifetime.

Surviving, as an Imperial Guardsman, is not likely enough that it's a possibility that's worth basing your decisions on. A guardsman surviving to die of old age is almost unheard of, since they are simply shuffled around from one war to another until they die. You're probably more likely to be killed by a meteorite than live to retirement age as a Guardsman. So it's not really a matter of "if you die in battle" but "when you die in battle" while accepting the reality that probably some guardsmen out there do in fact not die in battle, but simply not considering that possibility likely enough to be worth mentioning.

I mean, you've heard of neutrinos, right? Trillions of them are passing through you every second, and through the entire Earth in fact. They simply don't interact with your body often enough to affect you at all. Very rarely though, one actually does, and they're pretty harmful when they do, but the amount that do it are so low you'll never notice. Hell, if enough of them start interacting with your body, you could die of neutrino radiation poisoning, but that just never happens. However, one astrophysicist once asked a colleague, "Could a supernova cause a human to die from lethal radiation poisoning?" as a serious question, even though, "dying from neutrino radiation poisoning," is a sentence that makes scientists weird the hell out the same way contemplating the sentence, "a football stadium filled to the brim with ants," does for normal people like you and me. We can understand the words, we know what they mean, we know how they make sense, we simply can't imagine a situation where it might ever happen in real life.

And really, supernovae are powerful enough that yes, if you were close enough to one, you would be exposed to enough neutrinos that even if you survived the situation of being inside a star that goes supernova (the explosion takes out planets in other star systems, by the way. That's how powerful an explosion we're talking about), you're still gonna die from neutrino radiation poisoning. Because god damn are supernovas massive, to the degree where a scientist who studies the science of them for a living has a saying, "No matter how big you think it is, a supernova's bigger."

And if you're looking for a quick, relatively painless way to die as a Guardsman, even Guardsmen know the answer to THAT question. Just run away from a battle, and make SURE your Commissar sees you doing it. They'll plug you in the back of the head with their bolt pistol, and you'll die so fast your brain won't even know you've been shot, because your brain is the thing getting exploded here. Not just shot, EXPLODED, because bolt rounds are actually small anti-personnel grenades that penetrate the target's body before going off inside them, instead of on contact with the target's skin. Imagine a small grenade going off inside your brain. It's gonna be messy and gory, but you'll never know it.

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
Compared to everything else in the 40k universe, and tasked with a choice, yeah, I like a million to one shot to survive over a trillion to one shot. You can't really beat the Nids head on and being eaten is something I'd actively like to avoid.

Daemons can be beaten, they are surprisingly less numerous then Nids, and are insubstantial and waver in and out of existence. People have killed them with prayer and sharpened sticks and 'holy' symbols. So the 'chance' to survive IS greater. Again as long as the GK aren't around cause even if you DO win out, they cap you ANYWAY and take all the credit and glory.

Tyranids are finite. Daemons are infinite. It's actually otherway around. Tyranids can be all killed. Daemons cannot be.

Also tyranids will kill you and that's it. Daemons can do even worse to you.

I think I take marginally better odds of facing tyranids and knowledge that at least death is worst I have to worry about.

 Pouncey wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
It is extrapolated from the tamer form of torture: teasing.

I have not yet had the pleasure of full blown torture I am affraid. Not that I would carry out torture in the glorious name of Slaanesh...

Of course you wouldn't. Slaanesh is fictional. Doing anything in hir name would be as absurd as doing something in the same of Emperor Palpatine.

or jesus

So I 'm role playing as a guardsman, and I get to choose wether to fight daemons and tyranids?

Hm

I'd pick imperial guard.

tneva82 wrote:

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
Compared to everything else in the 40k universe, and tasked with a choice, yeah, I like a million to one shot to survive over a trillion to one shot. You can't really beat the Nids head on and being eaten is something I'd actively like to avoid.

Daemons can be beaten, they are surprisingly less numerous then Nids, and are insubstantial and waver in and out of existence. People have killed them with prayer and sharpened sticks and 'holy' symbols. So the 'chance' to survive IS greater. Again as long as the GK aren't around cause even if you DO win out, they cap you ANYWAY and take all the credit and glory.

Tyranids are finite. Daemons are infinite. It's actually otherway around. Tyranids can be all killed. Daemons cannot be.

Also tyranids will kill you and that's it. Daemons can do even worse to you.

I think I take marginally better odds of facing tyranids and knowledge that at least death is worst I have to worry about.

Demons aren't actually infinite. They are finite, but they simply are so vast that we mistake them for infinite.

They are immortal, yes, so they never die, but they are not created from nothing, they are in fact spawned from the minds of creatures like humans. Humans, even in WH40k, are not infinite. There are a finite number, and if you can kill enough of them, you can clear them out of an area. If you can devise a way to kill all humans in the Imperium, humanity goes extinct. They are simply so numerous no one's been able to do it yet.

If the Emperor were powerful enough, he could wipe out the Chaos Gods and all of their followers. If they reappeared, he could simply kill them again and again as they keep cropping up.

The Emperor is massively powerful, but he is not omnipotent. There are things beyond his power, and Chaos is simply so vast even he is incapable of defeating them. Even when he had access to the 30th millennium Imperium and all 20 Space Marine Legions and virtually every human in the Imperium, at a time when humanity was progressive and forward-thinking, his solution to Chaos was to try to ensure humanity never found out about it, not to simply use the vast resources of the Imperium to defeat Chaos once and for all.

So I guess really, even though Chaos isn't ACTUALLY infinite, they're vast enough that defeating them is simply beyond anyone's realistic capabilities.


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 slip wrote:
So I 'm role playing as a guardsman, and I get to choose wether to fight daemons and tyranids?

Hm

I'd pick imperial guard.

Good point.

Why not just turn your weapon on your own troops? Then you die by them instead of either of the other two.

Simple. Elegant. I like it.

I thought of Commissars in particular, but I failed to consider that I might be able to convince OTHER Imperial troops to kill me too, not just Commissars.

 Pouncey wrote:

 oldravenman3025 wrote:
The Tyranids are different. They are like a force of nature. A material force like no other. They have no fear. You can't goad them into making strategic or tactical blunders. You cannot communicate, negotiate, or reason with them. They can't be banished with glorified parlor tricks. They cannot be corrupted. They are an anathema to the Warp.

So they're like humans who:

-are willing to take losses to the point none of their soldiers consider their deaths a sacrifice at all
-are too intelligent to fall for the enemy's tricks
-do not speak the same language as their alien enemies at all and have not bothered to even try
-are immune to glorified parlor tricks
-are immune to corruption, whatever that means
-their mere existence tells the Warp to feth off in their general vicinity

So basically they're like people IRL in a lot of ways.

Humans IRL have been willing to die performing human wave attacks on machine gun nests while armed with farm equipment, and don't care if they die doing it. Imagine WW1 if the troops didn't care about being gunned down by machine guns. That has HAPPENED IRL when dictatorships get so bad their people consider being shot to death better than living under the government's rule.

Humans IRL are intelligent enough to consider the possibility of enemy deception and avoid reacting the way the enemy wants them to.

Human languages are different enough from each other you need a translator who knows both languages to interpret for you sometimes. Alien languages would be even MORE different than that, and until a human learns an alien language, or vice-versa, no interpreters will exist. Frankly, human larynxes may not be CAPABLE of speaking alien languages even if we DID learn them, and vice-versa.

Humans IRL are pretty much immune to stage magicians' magics, and generally are amused by them, rather than believing they are literally magic. You said parlor tricks, right?

A valuable trait in humans IRL is being incorruptible. Some of us are. If you mean by Chaos, well, there's the Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle, so, yeah, we can do that too. We've never tested if that would work IRL, because we've never encountered Chaos IRL to see if it would. Demons exist in some mythologies, and in those mythologies there are those who are so resistant to their corruption that they are considered incorruptible. Consider the story of Job for an easy example.

Humans IRL don't have a version of the Warp to try out being anathema to it, but have you heard of the concept of... I don't remember what they're called, but they're basically anti-psykers. They're one of the types of Assassins. So humans can do that too.

While these are interesting points to be sure, you have lost me here. I was, more or less, responding to the topic of the thread. Not comparing Humanity and the Tyranids.


As for your question, you are thinking of psychic nulls. The Adeptus Astra Telepathica generally ranks them from Phi-plus (your average "Blank") to the super-rare Omega-minus (among which include Culexus Assassins and Sororitas Inconcessus/Sisters of Silence ). Blanks, also known as "Untouchables", are those who possess a recessive form of the so-called "Pariah Gene". Normal folks normally shrug off the effects of the Blank's "otherness" as the person being simply odd, weird, or having a standoff-ish air about them. Psykers, on the other hand, know when they are around by the feelings of discomfort, and the fact that their abilities will be "nullified" in the general vicinity of said Blank. The most terrifying (to psykers) are the "Pariahs" (or "Blacksouls"), whose aura of otherness is so strong that even baseline Humans react negatively to them. And they have the capability of incapacitating, or even killing, psykers just by their presence, or by siphoning a psyker's energy to the point of death. The Sisters of Silence and Culexus were/are made up entirely of powerful Pariahs.

There were also singular examples of other kinds of nulls, like the "Black Pariah" and "Protiphage". But they were one-off types and haven't popped up (that I know of) since the Heresy.

What is noteworthy is that if you gather enough Blanks and Pariahs in a given location, it creates an effect similar to the Hive Mind's "Shadow in the Warp". (which happened once on Terra back during the Great Crusade, which caused the Navis Nobilite and other psyker-using agencies of the Imperium to freak the hell out, call for laws banning nulls, and for their extermination as "dangerous mutants")

Actually I'm a Callidus assassin and I'm here to kill this Commissar for giving choices to guardsman, clearly this is some sort of nefarious heretical plan.