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 Talamare wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
30k does a great job by making each additional model less expensive than the base unit would be

AKA, Back to Squad Tax?

Well generally more powerfull choices should cost more. Or you think it's odd tac marine costs more than ig trooper?

tneva82 wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
MSU does seem to raise the Power Level of the army, from what the Thousand Sons sheet presented.

That's because it had psyker in it. Rubrics themselves are flat cost. But not every unit has powerful expensive mandatory leader. And of course msu rubrics will be tossing mortal wounds reliably

It's not ONLY because it had a psyker in it.

Consider unit wide upgrades that have a cost PPM. You could take a base unit that runs in front and screens the upgraded unit from melee or you could take a single unit with double the models, loose the protection of a screening unit, AND costs more than the 2 separate units by the PPM increase.

The Rubric data sheet shows a good example because of the psyker mandatory. But I would argue that almost any unit looses out by not going MSU.

Biovores. I can take 3 in a unit and have them tethered to each other and having them all pulled into a melee if a unit makes a charge on them or I can take 3 separate units of 1 model and have each one need to be charged separately while gaining the advantage of superior positioning because they are not tethered together by unit cohesion. Without seeing a new Biovore datasheet and going off the current Biovore datasheet please tell me why anyone would build up a single unit of biovore?

But if one biovore cost say... 30 points and each additional biovore cost 25... well... Now I have a very good reason to consider building up a single unit instead of buying 3 separate.

tneva82 wrote:

 Talamare wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
30k does a great job by making each additional model less expensive than the base unit would be

AKA, Back to Squad Tax?

Well generally more powerfull choices should cost more. Or you think it's odd tac marine costs more than ig trooper?

I don't think that's what he's saying.

He's saying that, if you impose a flat cost on bringing the unit in the first place, before you add in the cost of the models in it, then it would be more cost efficient to bring large squads instead of spamming MSU.

 Talamare wrote:


AKA, Back to Squad Tax?

It's not a squad tax. It's a bulk discount.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Talamare wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
30k does a great job by making each additional model less expensive than the base unit would be

AKA, Back to Squad Tax?

Well generally more powerfull choices should cost more. Or you think it's odd tac marine costs more than ig trooper?

I don't think that's what he's saying.

He's saying that, if you impose a flat cost on bringing the unit in the first place, before you add in the cost of the models in it, then it would be more cost efficient to bring large squads instead of spamming MSU.

I am saying if you cost the base unit as you do now and give a slight discount to each additional model costs while giving unit wide upgrades a flat cost instead of a PPM cost THEN you gain cost efficiency.

Example.

Tau Stealth Suits costs 90pts for 3 models and the upgrade Bonding Knife Ritual costs 1 PPM you can add up to 3 Stealth Suits for 30PPM.

Change that to Stealth Suits costs 90 pts for 3 models
Bonding Knife Ritual costs 3pts.
May include up to 3 additional stealth suits for 25 PPM.

Both Bonding Knife Ritual and additional models in the single unit is now much more efficient cost wise. The base units costs has not changed. But building it up is more efficient than bringing 2 units of 3 by 18 points.

MSU keeps all it's advantages but cost efficiency directly counters it.

tneva82 wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
MSU does seem to raise the Power Level of the army, from what the Thousand Sons sheet presented.

That's because it had psyker in it. Rubrics themselves are flat cost. But not every unit has powerful expensive mandatory leader. And of course msu rubrics will be tossing mortal wounds reliably

Most non-Vehicle units have a Character in them, though. They may not be Psykers, but they are still there.

 Lance845 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
MSU does seem to raise the Power Level of the army, from what the Thousand Sons sheet presented.

That's because it had psyker in it. Rubrics themselves are flat cost. But not every unit has powerful expensive mandatory leader. And of course msu rubrics will be tossing mortal wounds reliably

It's not ONLY because it had a psyker in it.

Consider unit wide upgrades that have a cost PPM. You could take a base unit that runs in front and screens the upgraded unit from melee or you could take a single unit with double the models, loose the protection of a screening unit, AND costs more than the 2 separate units by the PPM increase.

The Rubric data sheet shows a good example because of the psyker mandatory. But I would argue that almost any unit looses out by not going MSU.

Biovores. I can take 3 in a unit and have them tethered to each other and having them all pulled into a melee if a unit makes a charge on them or I can take 3 separate units of 1 model and have each one need to be charged separately while gaining the advantage of superior positioning because they are not tethered together by unit cohesion. Without seeing a new Biovore datasheet and going off the current Biovore datasheet please tell me why anyone would build up a single unit of biovore?

But if one biovore cost say... 30 points and each additional biovore cost 25... well... Now I have a very good reason to consider building up a single unit instead of buying 3 separate.

Umm how that shows more expensivie base cost isn't due to psyker? Okay it's possible msu tax is there but then it's pretty small.

We have no evidence 5 tac marines with sergeant that is no match for aspiring sorcerer has same cost system.

Msu tax should be but evidence so far doesn't prove it and hints at opposite


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Charistoph wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
MSU does seem to raise the Power Level of the army, from what the Thousand Sons sheet presented.

That's because it had psyker in it. Rubrics themselves are flat cost. But not every unit has powerful expensive mandatory leader. And of course msu rubrics will be tossing mortal wounds reliably

Most non-Vehicle units have a Character in them, though. They may not be Psykers, but they are still there.

But not this good and so far they have been free for most units in 7 ed. We have no evidence those minor sergeants wont still be free. And if you btw charge for good character and thats why basic unit costs more thats not even msu benefit compensation. For that 5 bog standard tac marines should for example cost 75(15 per model) and add members 13. You do NOT get it by adding psyker causing mortal wounds and charge him.

MSU cost should come in the CAD, you fill it out faster therefore needing more detachments. Too bad that rarely works out.

Also from reading my red book the cost discount on bigger squads doesn't seem to be as large as some people make it out to be.

Earth127 wrote:
MSU cost should come in the CAD, you fill it out faster therefore needing more detachments. Too bad that rarely works out.

Also from reading my red book the cost discount on bigger squads doesn't seem to be as large as some people make it out to be.

It doesn't need to be large. If because you build up 6 units you end up with enough points to purchase another small unit or even some nice upgrade wargear then it works out.

Also, have you looked at the 8th ed cads? 1) we don't know if you can bring more than 1. 2) If you can... good. The more cads you bring the more command points you might end up with. Even more MSU advantages. Not saying we know that is how it works or not, but the CAD is nowhere near as restrictive in 8th by the looks of it and IF you can bring more than one it will be to your advantage.

 Lance845 wrote:

Also, have you looked at the 8th ed cads? 1) we don't know if you can bring more than 1. 2) If you can... good. The more cads you bring the more command points you might end up with. Even more MSU advantages. Not saying we know that is how it works or not, but the CAD is nowhere near as restrictive in 8th by the looks of it and IF you can bring more than one it will be to your advantage.

Actually we know that you can take more. If not tournies wouldnt have ability to limit like gw stated and allies wouldn't work as those need another detach and gw has said allies are in

tneva82 wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
MSU does seem to raise the Power Level of the army, from what the Thousand Sons sheet presented.

That's because it had psyker in it. Rubrics themselves are flat cost. But not every unit has powerful expensive mandatory leader. And of course msu rubrics will be tossing mortal wounds reliably

Most non-Vehicle units have a Character in them, though. They may not be Psykers, but they are still there.

But not this good and so far they have been free for most units in 7 ed. We have no evidence those minor sergeants wont still be free. And if you btw charge for good character and thats why basic unit costs more thats not even msu benefit compensation. For that 5 bog standard tac marines should for example cost 75(15 per model) and add members 13. You do NOT get it by adding psyker causing mortal wounds and charge him.

But those Sergeants usually carry special Weapons, such as Pistols, Combi-Weapons, all those Exarch Weapons, Power Weapons, etc. Going this route, and if we use AoS as a guide, those Characters will also be carrying an extra Attack.

It may only be one Power Level Point in some cases, but that is still one Power Level Point which means that going MSU will give you a lot of those 1 Power Level Points to raise the Power Level of the army as a whole. That usually means a greater likelihood of either being the Attacker, or going with a smaller model count over all.