Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Brandon_me wrote:
So question, with all these point reductions for Space Marines, do Dark Angels/Space Wolves/Blood Angels have to stick with the old points until they each get their own individual codex?

Unless it says in the Codex they don't they have to wait till their own codexes or a offical update from GW - another issue with the Codex update format.

might be able to Huse rule it though.

Likely these will be some of the 10 codexes updated before Christmas though.

That's from the purely index games dakka's recorded.

Space Marines absolutely needed a buff OUTSIDE of stormravens and guilliman which both need nerfing

There are appears to be zero nerfs in the new Codex only bonuses - hence my worry - if this continues not a good thing except for sales as there will be armies that get nothing for 6, 8 or even 12 months - perhaps never. So its fine for me who has lots of armies but someone who plays one or two Index armies rather the Chosen ones... not so good.

re the Armies - I still think there should be an Imperial category to cover all those armies that mix and match across the Imperium.

Also huge disaprity in the number of games played between say Sisters (37) and Marines (200+) so difficult to compare, especially when many games will actually be Marines vs Marines.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Unless it says in the Codex they don't they have to wait till their own codexes or a offical update from GW - another issue with the Codex update format.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/22/the-other-angels-of-death-and-codex-space-marines/

sossen wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Unless it says in the Codex they don't they have to wait till their own codexes or a offical update from GW - another issue with the Codex update format.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/22/the-other-angels-of-death-and-codex-space-marines/

LIke said - 10 codexes before Christmas - how many will be a different coloured Marine dex? I reckon 8.

GAdvance wrote:

Spoiler:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I did confirm that Inceptors went down to 30 pts per model. That makes a squad much cheaper. 180 pts is a much easier pill to swallow than 225 pts. Now I might actually make use of them.

Pts changes that I can see or new unit points(excluding wargear):
Captain in Terminator Armor - 105 pts (down from 122 pts)
Lieutenants - 60 pts each
Primaris Chaplain - 85 pts
Primaris Apothecary - 64 pts
Repulsor - 210 pts
Inceptors - 30 pts (down from 45 pts)
Drop Pod - 93 pts (down from 103 pts)
Land Speeder Storm - 75 pts (down from 80 pts)
Chaplain Cassius - 98 pts (down from 138 pts!)
Emperor's Champion - 75 pts (down from 108 pts!)
Vindicator - 135 pts (down from 160 pts)
Whirlwind - 75 pts (down from 90 pts)
Predator - 90 pts (down from 102 pts)
Hellblasters - 18 pts (down from 20 pts)
Stalker - 80 pts (down from 90 pts)

Ok so a new Codex.

1. Considerable points reduction on some units - apparently not a single unit increases cost - is that correct?
2. Extremely Powerful new Chapter Tactics - esp Raven Guard (no cost) (nominal list building skills needed to circumvent the "negative" - that specific detachment has to be on Chapter)
3. Loads of Strategems (CP only cost) so increased flexibility.
4. Relics (free!!!!) (minor CP cost for multiples)

Codex power creep is worrying evident - especially given that only 10 more before Christmas and mostly Marines (of different hues)

That's from the purely index games dakka's recorded.

Space Marines absolutely needed a buff OUTSIDE of stormravens and guilliman which both need nerfing

We live in an era where a little data is a dangerous thing. We put some numbers on something and assume that means no further interpretation is needed. I'm not saying any armies need buffing/nerfing. I am saying that there is a lot of mathHammer that doesn't mean what people seem to think it means.

That's not mathhammer - just data from games reported. Not pretending to be anything. You draw your own conclusions out of it. Just data. You can add your games to the thread. It's on the first page of general discussion atm.

GAdvance wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I did confirm that Inceptors went down to 30 pts per model. That makes a squad much cheaper. 180 pts is a much easier pill to swallow than 225 pts. Now I might actually make use of them.

Pts changes that I can see or new unit points(excluding wargear):
Captain in Terminator Armor - 105 pts (down from 122 pts)
Lieutenants - 60 pts each
Primaris Chaplain - 85 pts
Primaris Apothecary - 64 pts
Repulsor - 210 pts
Inceptors - 30 pts (down from 45 pts)
Drop Pod - 93 pts (down from 103 pts)
Land Speeder Storm - 75 pts (down from 80 pts)
Chaplain Cassius - 98 pts (down from 138 pts!)
Emperor's Champion - 75 pts (down from 108 pts!)
Vindicator - 135 pts (down from 160 pts)
Whirlwind - 75 pts (down from 90 pts)
Predator - 90 pts (down from 102 pts)
Hellblasters - 18 pts (down from 20 pts)
Stalker - 80 pts (down from 90 pts)

Ok so a new Codex.

1. Considerable points reduction on some units - apparently not a single unit increases cost - is that correct?
2. Extremely Powerful new Chapter Tactics - esp Raven Guard (no cost) (nominal list building skills needed to circumvent the "negative" - that specific detachment has to be on Chapter)
3. Loads of Strategems (CP only cost) so increased flexibility.
4. Relics (free!!!!) (minor CP cost for multiples)

Codex power creep is worrying evident - especially given that only 10 more before Christmas and mostly Marines (of different hues)

That's from the purely index games dakka's recorded.

Space Marines absolutely needed a buff OUTSIDE of stormravens and guilliman which both need nerfing

I don't think there should be a points increase... idk this reference but it seems the golden boys are getting crushed lol.

sossen wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Unless it says in the Codex they don't they have to wait till their own codexes or a offical update from GW - another issue with the Codex update format.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/22/the-other-angels-of-death-and-codex-space-marines/

Thanks man!

GAdvance wrote:



That's from the purely index games dakka's recorded.

Space Marines absolutely needed a buff OUTSIDE of stormravens and guilliman which both need nerfing

Now merge all the results based on their Keyword

Imperium, Eldar, Chaos, etc

 koooaei wrote:
That's not mathhammer - just data from games reported. Not pretending to be anything. You draw your own conclusions out of it. Just data. You can add your games to the thread. It's on the first page of general discussion atm.

Sure, whatever, but the fact remains that this data is basically useless for trying to figure out whether factions are balanced. It's an extremely misleading use of data.

 Talamare wrote:

GAdvance wrote:

Now merge all the results based on their Keyword

Imperium, Eldar, Chaos, etc

That doesn't sound right. If you treat it like that the Imperium will never get balanced.
Sure they have more possible alliances, but most people still run more individual armies.

Yes but thats an issue with having one vast faction with so many combinations.

Best you could do herer was have "pure" sub faction lists with a maximum points spend on non subfaction.

The table above also needs Games played column like the one on the thread?

Tyel wrote:
Point reduction of units no one took because they were overcosted isn't an issue. If players are now putting points into them they are not putting points into things like stormravens.

Its all been said before but that RG chapter tactics seems clearly broken compared to the others. A Raven Guard gunline also doesn't seem very fluffy. I guess the upside is that under the new way of doing things they may play it for three months and FAQ it out though.

Also I will be intrigued to see if all the tournament guys paint their formerly white scars black.

1. No, the Raven Guard one isn't broken. It is strong. There's a difference.
2. How is Raven Guard gunline NOT fluffy?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Tyel wrote:
Point reduction of units no one took because they were overcosted isn't an issue. If players are now putting points into them they are not putting points into things like stormravens.

Its all been said before but that RG chapter tactics seems clearly broken compared to the others. A Raven Guard gunline also doesn't seem very fluffy. I guess the upside is that under the new way of doing things they may play it for three months and FAQ it out though.

Also I will be intrigued to see if all the tournament guys paint their formerly white scars black.

2. How is Raven Guard gunline NOT fluffy?

Search for Raven Guard on google and see how many jump packs are depicted in their art.

sossen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Tyel wrote:
Point reduction of units no one took because they were overcosted isn't an issue. If players are now putting points into them they are not putting points into things like stormravens.

Its all been said before but that RG chapter tactics seems clearly broken compared to the others. A Raven Guard gunline also doesn't seem very fluffy. I guess the upside is that under the new way of doing things they may play it for three months and FAQ it out though.

Also I will be intrigued to see if all the tournament guys paint their formerly white scars black.

2. How is Raven Guard gunline NOT fluffy?

Search for Raven Guard on google and see how many jump packs are depicted in their art.

They're a guerilla strike Chapter. They use Jump Packs but it isn't their actual focus.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
They're a guerilla strike Chapter. They use Jump Packs but it isn't their actual focus.

I agree, they are a guerilla strike chapter and not a gunline chapter.

sossen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
They're a guerilla strike Chapter. They use Jump Packs but it isn't their actual focus.

I agree, they are a guerilla strike chapter and not a gunline chapter.

Which fits gun lines more than noisy Jump Packs.

This is essentially the "White Scars only use bikes" argument. They are still a codex compliant chapter that uses more sneak attacks.

Looks like they may have not given Marine flyers a points boost as the new faq says that if you only have Flyers on the table - you loose.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Looks like they may have not given Marine flyers a points boost as the new faq says that if you only have Flyers on the table - you loose.

+1

If you field 5 storm ravens in a 2000 point list killing all the infantry shouldn't be to difficult. Your main goal and focus will be taking cover, killing the enemy infantry and surviving the flyer attacks.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Looks like they may have not given Marine flyers a points boost as the new faq says that if you only have Flyers on the table - you loose.

Look at that, a nice way to curb flyer spam that doesn't screw over people that want to take one or two. Pretty nice.

As for the Raven Guard fluff, they have always been Sneaky Chapter first, Jump Pack Chapter second. The -1 to hit plays to Sneaky gunline because that is what they have been. Truthfully, I would rather it was +1 Cover even if they are in open field. I don't like that there are two completely different mechanisms for being hard to see.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Looks like they may have not given Marine flyers a points boost as the new faq says that if you only have Flyers on the table - you loose.

Look at that, a nice way to curb flyer spam that doesn't screw over people that want to take one or two. Pretty nice.

As for the Raven Guard fluff, they have always been Sneaky Chapter first, Jump Pack Chapter second. The -1 to hit plays to Sneaky gunline because that is what they have been. Truthfully, I would rather it was +1 Cover even if they are in open field. I don't like that there are two completely different mechanisms for being hard to see.

+1 to cover would have been even more broken. I mean... terminator tatical marines?

BrianDavion wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Looks like they may have not given Marine flyers a points boost as the new faq says that if you only have Flyers on the table - you loose.

Look at that, a nice way to curb flyer spam that doesn't screw over people that want to take one or two. Pretty nice.

As for the Raven Guard fluff, they have always been Sneaky Chapter first, Jump Pack Chapter second. The -1 to hit plays to Sneaky gunline because that is what they have been. Truthfully, I would rather it was +1 Cover even if they are in open field. I don't like that there are two completely different mechanisms for being hard to see.

+1 to cover would have been even more broken. I mean... terminator tatical marines?

Cover can be mitigated though, the -1 to hit can't. BTW, I was talking +1 Cover when >12" away, if that makes any difference.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
As for the Raven Guard fluff, they have always been Sneaky Chapter first, Jump Pack Chapter second. The -1 to hit plays to Sneaky gunline because that is what they have been. Truthfully, I would rather it was +1 Cover even if they are in open field. I don't like that there are two completely different mechanisms for being hard to see.

I guess it comes down to what you consider guerrilla, stealthy warfare to entail.
Taken to extreme I guess you can imagine almost anything. So your sneaky Raven Guard devastators and other gun line units could creep up into that cover and are now all blazing away from maximum distance while the opponent struggles to spot them.
But that doesn't fit the chapter fantasy to me.

Game play wise though how will it be any different from setting up an Imperial Fist gun line, except for having a considerably better rule?
This doesn't sit well with me because Imperial Fists are much more of a gun line "come at me bro" sort of chapter. Raven Guard by contrast go out and get you.

White Scars may not be the bike chapter - but they are meant to be the "likes going fast" chapter. If your army consists of a collection of very immobile units it doesn't really play the fluff.

When I think Raven Guard I don't picture a guy lugging a lascannon around. That is what the rule is probably going to encourage.