What was the main complaint about 7e?

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**Gunzhard**

Massive codex imbalance (sooo sick of Eldar / Tau, superfriends etc etc)... too many books, too many pointless rules...

8th edition isn't "the perfect game" but it's far closer, and it's such a breath of fresh air not thinking about fire archs, vehicle facings, tripping and dying on terrain, tons and tons of extra rules etc...

**Gibs55**

I like in 8th how the challenge is to out play your opponent rather than out rules lawyer them before hitting the table. Every unit can also contribute as they hit and wound on 6's.

It is also great that characters cannot join units and tank all the damage for them which discourages big Deathstar units.

The game flows well and the phases are straight forward and take much less time.

The two things that are annoying in 8th is how easy it is for units to fall back from combat and vehicles without turret weapons shooting our their arse. I can see why they have everything 360 range as it can slow down the game working out firing arcs. However falling back from combat should have a bigger penalty that not being able to shoot i.e. suffer -2 leadership for the rest of the game or suffer D3 wounds of something.

Otherwise its great fun!

**SarisKhan**

The things that discouraged me from playing after a while all the way until 8th was published:
- rules for a single army spread across several sources (rulebook, codex, supplement, other codex, dataslates, campaign book, etc.).
- general clusterfeth of similar, dissimilar and unique rules nigh-impossible to process during a game.
- formations, aka free USRs not for everyone. Especially those that granted virtually free units to certain armies.
- unkillable frankensteinian deathstars composed of units from several codices. Ah, the fun of shooting a model with re-rollable 2+/3++ and FnP...

**koooaei**

I hated the super magic friends in 7-th. And the inconsistency in power levels between factions (though, it's still an issue but not as HUGE as it was before).

**warhead01**

SemperMortis wrote:
warhead01 wrote:

Would you say this is better or worse than 7th edition trukks?

Worse, by far. 7th edition Trukkz were actually better, significantly less durable but more useful for an assault army, especially when Trukk Boyz were still usable.

warhead01 wrote:

I know I like them better now.
Smasha Guns are yet another much improved unit from 7th edition. Yes it's random but it's amazing. Hit's on a 4+ which means it can hit flyers on a 5+ Any of them that get past the targets toughness will bleed it out. AP-4 is huge. D6 Damage is fantastic. Heck you could easily kill just about what ever. I tried it I'm hooked I have 6 of them now. I'm tempted to turn all my Mek gunz into Samsha guunz. (That'd give me 12 and I'd feel like a power gamer so I can't do it.) Try Kannons for less points they're quite Killy as well. (Are you playing points or Power Levels? I've done both and I really like the Mek guns better in Power Levels.)

Smasha Gunz are not good, they got better but they still aren't where they need to be. Bragging about hitting on a 5+ against flyers really highlights my problem with a lot of our community. We are so used to being crapped on by GW that we actually BRAG about hitting 1/3rd of the time. I agree with you that Kannons are as good. I don't think anyone in the game would think of you as a power gamer if you brought 12 Smasha Gunz. 492pts for 12 S2D6 -4AP D6 damage shots is ridiculously over priced. Right off the bat, against vehicles/flyers you will hit with 6/4 on average, Most vehicles are T7 so you have a 58.3% chance to wound a T7 vehicle (41.7% chance vs T8) So lets round that up to 60% chance and you will wound 3.6 and 2.4 times on average Vs T7. Again lets round UP to 4 and 3. At D6 damage that is 14wounds Vs vehicles and 10ish vs Flyers. That sounds pretty good, except you are seriously over paying for those shots. you are spending more then what it costs to field 3 predator annihilators for the ability to kill one of them a turn. Ohh and Ranged 36 LD4 with a 6+ save...yeah you are going to be running away pretty much the entire game whenever your opponent shoots you.

warhead01 wrote:

The Grot save hasn't been this goon in 5? editions? Why is that important who cares? Well the poor little grots care. the Space Marines failing to kill them care. Aside from having their shooting weapons changed again they've never seemed more useful. I put them in front, I cover them with my KFF as I move my army forward and now will have them in range of a Pain boy. Not for them they just get the buff while he's there. No one wants to waste their time with fighting Grots. Yes their LD sucks but so far that's not even been an issue. They were charged by a rhino which failed to kill any of them for several turns in my last game. The screen enemy shooting. I can use a Command Point to auto pass their LD test if it's needed bad enough.
I've been on the bad end of the LD test for a few Mobs I know can be bad. I've mostly found that when the other player is put into a big combat and focuses on the wrong small units they're worried about, if they don't kill them all then my lot aren't worried about a LD test. I'll take this LD system over 7th edition's Mob Rule this feels proppa to me.

They are a screening force that no longer gives a mobile cover save. They no longer get a 4+ cover save for being in ruins on an objective. They suck horribly at CC, They are actually WORSE at shooting then they are at CC because they have pistols. Let that sink in, the one unit in our codex we want armed with shootas or good ranged weapons is armed with pistols. You are right that people would rather shoot boyz then Grots but by the same token if they are in range they still can. And if your opponent uses an empty Rhino to block grots for the whole game its a fair trade for him because he doesn't care about that empty rhino either.

I think the next point of interest is how often do you change your army lists and do they have a core of units that you always use?

For my self I've played foot Orks nearly the same way in 5 editions and now a 6th, (8th edition). I do admit to spending very little time running trukks. I own lots of them, I bought up my friends collection a few years ago. I've had little to no luck with them. I know you need lots of trukks in a list in 7th and probably in 6th to get anything out of them. But aside from how easily they were destroyed the Morale of the Orks and Mob rule....it's no good boss. So in a way it's the same as it is in 8th, not enough boys getting out of the trukks.(for Leadership.)
It's sad that the power levels of every other faction nerffed an already "sawft" codex.
in all of that I think I forgot to list what I've used for years. Bous, Grot Big Guns MANZ and KFF Meks. I reserve the Warboss of larger games 2000 points or more but this was really only over the last two years.
Before that Killa Kans and Deff Dreads were in and a trukk full of burna boys (Back when it all works so well..4th edition...? something like that.)

It just hit me, one of the things I liked about 7th edition. skqadrons for Blitza Bombers.

**Talamare**

Good thing Objective Secured was removed from the game, that was one of the great fixes of 8e

Objective Secured will definitely never make it back into the game! Oh wait

**Blackie**

Talamare wrote:
Good thing Objective Secured was removed from the game, that was one of the great fixes of 8e

Objective Secured will definitely never make it back into the game! Oh wait

Why Obj sec was a problem? Only eldar had very powerful troops, and one of the problem in 7th was that there weren't enough troops on average but mostly big guys and bikes.

IMHO problems with 7th were the psychic phase, too unbalanced and powerful for some armies, SM broken formations and their amount of grav shots, troop bikers, some huge undercosted and super effective models that could be spammed rather than taking infantries. Superheroes like cawl, guilliman and celestine were also a big problem but they were released only at the end of 7th edition, the previous version of celestine was ok.

**BaconCatBug**

Gibs55 wrote:
I like in 8th how the challenge is to out play your opponent rather than out rules lawyer them before hitting the table. Every unit can also contribute as they hit and wound on 6's.

Nitpick: You don't autohit on 6's. Makes Orks incapable of hitting stormravens at night.

**MagicJuggler**

Blackie wrote:
Talamare wrote:
Good thing Objective Secured was removed from the game, that was one of the great fixes of 8e

Objective Secured will definitely never make it back into the game! Oh wait

Why Obj sec was a problem? Only eldar had very powerful troops, and one of the problem in 7th was that there weren't enough troops on average but mostly big guys and bikes.

IMHO problems with 7th were the psychic phase, too unbalanced and powerful for some armies, SM broken formations and their amount of grav shots, troop bikers, some huge undercosted and super effective models that could be spammed rather than taking infantries. Superheroes like cawl, guilliman and celestine were also a big problem but they were released only at the end of 7th edition, the previous version of celestine was ok.

Obsec by itself wasn't bad. Obsec alongside "rocket tag" objectives was another issue.

The Psychic Phase itself was mostly ok, and just needed some tweaks. Issues were more with specific powers than anything else. That, and the system favored a few big casters over multiple small casters. Still better than 8th if you want to do anything besides spam Smite. In 7e, Psyker Efficiency was F(x)=Log(x) + C. In 8th, F(x) = C, simply because Psychic Focus is a *terrible* rule.

Of the special characters, I can only think of five that were tournament regulars: Azrael (for building a Barkstar), Khan (for an Outflank Gladius), Magnus, Fateweaver, and Masque. Most others were actually rather crappy compared to the "generic" options, or too expensive to be worth fielding. Draigo had a brief run granting Gate to GravCents, and there was a gimmick build with the 6e Eldar codex where Maugan Ra camped in an Aquila Stronghold to Fast Shot a Macro-Cannon, but those were more hilarious novelties rather than all-comers setups.

**Sgt. Cortez**

The psychic phase in 7th was a mess. A boring phase for the opponent and very counter-intuitive for yourself, as all but one Psyker were generally nothing more than batteries.

Smite-spam right now will become less once we get more codizes with 6 powers to choose from. With my DG I never used Smite so far, as the powers from Dark heretic, Nurgle and Death Guard are much more interesting.