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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/13 20:13:46
Subject: Re:So how is everyone enjoying 8th?
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Ragin' Ork Dreadnought
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Unit1126PLL wrote:
My LGS uses Power Levels and everyone optimizes the crap out of everything (my Sororitas have an Inferno Pistol, Boltgun replacement, and power axe on almost every model that can take them, including regular sergeants, and some have even more upgrades where available, for example).
It's still fun and balanced, imo.
My problem with that is that it invalidates tons and tons of wargear that specializes in being cheap but efficient. Nobody will ever take a Storm Bolter when they could bring a Combi-Plasma. Don't bother bringing a Power Fist, just take a Thunder Hammer. Oh, you took a Power Sword instead of a Relic Blade? That's cute.
All Power Levels are set assuming you take the best gear available, so if you don't do that, your gear is all going to be heavily overcosted. Even if you just want that Captain to provide some buffs, he may as well bring a Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield, or maybe a Thunder Hammer and Combi-Melta. If those Terminators don't have Chainfists on every model amd a CML, you're intentionally crippling yourself.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/13 20:16:47
Subject: So how is everyone enjoying 8th?
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Courageous Beastmaster
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Having a blast right now due to better balance and it's way easier to play with my less experienced/ worse-at-rule-learning friends.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/13 20:21:58
Subject: So how is everyone enjoying 8th?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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RedCommander wrote:DarthDiggler wrote:The ITC standard terrain displayed above is the reason IG heavy artillery plus conscripts is doing so well. Nothing can hide from artillery, but artillery can hide from you thanks to so much LOS blockers.
I agree that 8th has become bland. 90% of games are decided by the end of turn 2.
So, do you think less or more terrain would help?
If you cover everything with terrain, no one can move their troops.
If you cut terrain, shooty units will just have a field day.
I play IG and I think you need to have an substantial amount of LoS-blocking terrain but not every square inch should be covered by it. I've basically heard suggestions that all game tables should be walls made of three story buildings... that can't be right, right?
I think artillery needs a -1 to hit a target out of LOS.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/13 20:36:05
Subject: Re:So how is everyone enjoying 8th?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Waaaghpower wrote: Unit1126PLL wrote:
My LGS uses Power Levels and everyone optimizes the crap out of everything (my Sororitas have an Inferno Pistol, Boltgun replacement, and power axe on almost every model that can take them, including regular sergeants, and some have even more upgrades where available, for example).
It's still fun and balanced, imo.
My problem with that is that it invalidates tons and tons of wargear that specializes in being cheap but efficient. Nobody will ever take a Storm Bolter when they could bring a Combi-Plasma. Don't bother bringing a Power Fist, just take a Thunder Hammer. Oh, you took a Power Sword instead of a Relic Blade? That's cute.
All Power Levels are set assuming you take the best gear available, so if you don't do that, your gear is all going to be heavily overcosted. Even if you just want that Captain to provide some buffs, he may as well bring a Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield, or maybe a Thunder Hammer and Combi-Melta. If those Terminators don't have Chainfists on every model amd a CML, you're intentionally crippling yourself.
Power levels are set at an average between no gear and the best gear available, actually.
As for what wargear people bring, 2 comments:
1) "the best" is not always the same thing, because situations vary (is a flamer better than a meltagun against tanks? Are meltaguns better than flamers against conscripts?)
2) I use storm bolters ( the cheapest option points wise) over every other Sisters special weapon in most of my squads, because fluff and they're quite good anyways, even if they're points wise worse.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/13 22:05:17
Subject: Re:So how is everyone enjoying 8th?
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Fresh-Faced New User
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Really superb.
Games are just as complex, but rules are not.
There will be some added flavour as each faction gets a codex, and I would prefer some better terrain rules, but the games are so much better than the last several versions.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/13 22:39:26
Subject: Re:So how is everyone enjoying 8th?
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Irked Blood Angel Scout with Combat Knife
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Waaaghpower wrote: Elbows wrote:Waaaghpower wrote:
So you have a few very major houserules, only play friendly lists that don't have any sort of optimization, and only use simple scenarios.
So HOW exactly do you know that the balance is good?
So non-spam, non-tournament lists are by default "friendly lists" without any sort of optimization? Excellent logic. Is the topic here "how is everyone enjoying 8th?" or "How is 8th for spammy tournament players"? Which of those questions did my answer address? Of the 14-16 players who game regularly no one has an unbeatable army so far. Hordes being the toughest of armies so far.
I'm not saying you can't be having fun. I'm saying you can't have a good sense of how good the balance is. You didn't just say 'non-spam, non tournament', you also specified that you only take the occasional strong unit, and you use Power Levels.
With Power Levels, either you're optimizing the crap out of your army by bringing all possible weapon choices and maximizing potential, or you're using it for easy, quick list building - In which case you're not heavily optimizing.
It's great that your LGS is having a good time.
You are telling me a weapon system that formerly had a 10 inch template, strength d, and the machine destroyer rule is the wrong weapon system for taking on two trucks side by side?
In 7th edition, it would have annihilated the trucks and anything standing nearby : as it should be the case for a weapon system known for turning rock and stone into magma underneath it.
In 8th Edition, you will likely kill a single truck and everyone around it will be peachy. This does not reflect the concept of the weapon. A volcano cannon is NOT a scalpel , but a massive weapon of wanton destruction on a city-wide scale.
Positioning and clustering troops together should be a high risk scenario yet the new 8th edition rules dont support it, nor does 8th edition reward being in favorable positioning by being outside a gunnery arc , as now every tank can fire from any point on the vehicle, even an antenna.
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Blood Angels, Angels Sanguine, Angels Vermillion, Lamenters, Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists, Tyranids, Eldar, Sons of Malice, Chaos Daemons, Tau, Space Wolves, Ultramarines, Imperial Knights, Sisters of Battle |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/13 22:47:11
Subject: So how is everyone enjoying 8th?
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Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant
Wales
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While I agree that changes like this do hurt the "crunch" if a particular weapon, the removal of the defacto no.1 cause of arguments (templates) and no.1 time consumer (horde armies moved with perfect 2 inch gaps)more than makes up for it.
Seriously, 8th edition us actually fun. I can't remember the day people were smiling and actually enjoying 40k as a game rather than a 'deathstar construction spam cheese list simulator'.
Just my 2 pence on the matter.
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374th Mechanized 195pts |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/13 23:11:48
Subject: So how is everyone enjoying 8th?
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Irked Blood Angel Scout with Combat Knife
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Entirely subjective.
Believe it or not, some of us actually enjoyed a flamethrower actually projecting a flame.
Or realize that firing a high arc impact-fused weapon like a bombard cannon will never hit a flier. Now it does.
Or that a flamethower weapon would do nothing to a high speed flier. But now its the perfect AA weapon.
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Blood Angels, Angels Sanguine, Angels Vermillion, Lamenters, Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists, Tyranids, Eldar, Sons of Malice, Chaos Daemons, Tau, Space Wolves, Ultramarines, Imperial Knights, Sisters of Battle |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/13 23:29:10
Subject: Re:So how is everyone enjoying 8th?
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Ragin' Ork Dreadnought
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GodofHobos wrote:Waaaghpower wrote: Elbows wrote:Waaaghpower wrote:
So you have a few very major houserules, only play friendly lists that don't have any sort of optimization, and only use simple scenarios.
So HOW exactly do you know that the balance is good?
So non-spam, non-tournament lists are by default "friendly lists" without any sort of optimization? Excellent logic. Is the topic here "how is everyone enjoying 8th?" or "How is 8th for spammy tournament players"? Which of those questions did my answer address? Of the 14-16 players who game regularly no one has an unbeatable army so far. Hordes being the toughest of armies so far.
I'm not saying you can't be having fun. I'm saying you can't have a good sense of how good the balance is. You didn't just say 'non-spam, non tournament', you also specified that you only take the occasional strong unit, and you use Power Levels.
With Power Levels, either you're optimizing the crap out of your army by bringing all possible weapon choices and maximizing potential, or you're using it for easy, quick list building - In which case you're not heavily optimizing.
It's great that your LGS is having a good time.
You are telling me a weapon system that formerly had a 10 inch template, strength d, and the machine destroyer rule is the wrong weapon system for taking on two trucks side by side?
In 7th edition, it would have annihilated the trucks and anything standing nearby : as it should be the case for a weapon system known for turning rock and stone into magma underneath it.
In 8th Edition, you will likely kill a single truck and everyone around it will be peachy. This does not reflect the concept of the weapon. A volcano cannon is NOT a scalpel , but a massive weapon of wanton destruction on a city-wide scale.
Positioning and clustering troops together should be a high risk scenario yet the new 8th edition rules dont support it, nor does 8th edition reward being in favorable positioning by being outside a gunnery arc , as now every tank can fire from any point on the vehicle, even an antenna.
I swear you meant to respond to someone else.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/14 00:07:05
Subject: So how is everyone enjoying 8th?
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Irked Blood Angel Scout with Combat Knife
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I did, it looks like the quote system broke.
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Blood Angels, Angels Sanguine, Angels Vermillion, Lamenters, Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists, Tyranids, Eldar, Sons of Malice, Chaos Daemons, Tau, Space Wolves, Ultramarines, Imperial Knights, Sisters of Battle |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/14 00:51:13
Subject: Re:So how is everyone enjoying 8th?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Waaaghpower wrote: Unit1126PLL wrote:
My LGS uses Power Levels and everyone optimizes the crap out of everything (my Sororitas have an Inferno Pistol, Boltgun replacement, and power axe on almost every model that can take them, including regular sergeants, and some have even more upgrades where available, for example).
It's still fun and balanced, imo.
My problem with that is that it invalidates tons and tons of wargear that specializes in being cheap but efficient. Nobody will ever take a Storm Bolter when they could bring a Combi-Plasma. Don't bother bringing a Power Fist, just take a Thunder Hammer. Oh, you took a Power Sword instead of a Relic Blade? That's cute.
There's just too many wargear options (and units to be honest) for marines. Any designer would be hard pressed to differentiate all the stuff GW has put out over the years when you're working with D6s. And they doubled down by adding Primaris into the mix.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/14 00:58:01
Subject: Re:So how is everyone enjoying 8th?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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argonak wrote:Waaaghpower wrote: Unit1126PLL wrote:
My LGS uses Power Levels and everyone optimizes the crap out of everything (my Sororitas have an Inferno Pistol, Boltgun replacement, and power axe on almost every model that can take them, including regular sergeants, and some have even more upgrades where available, for example).
It's still fun and balanced, imo.
My problem with that is that it invalidates tons and tons of wargear that specializes in being cheap but efficient. Nobody will ever take a Storm Bolter when they could bring a Combi-Plasma. Don't bother bringing a Power Fist, just take a Thunder Hammer. Oh, you took a Power Sword instead of a Relic Blade? That's cute.
There's just too many wargear options (and units to be honest) for marines. Any designer would be hard pressed to differentiate all the stuff GW has put out over the years when you're working with D6s. And they doubled down by adding Primaris into the mix.
There's a fine line between calling a Lasgun a Lasgun, versus having separate rules for Mars-Pattern, Necromunda-Pattern, Accatran-Pattern, etc Lasguns, versus not making *Plasma* appreciably different from Bolt Weapons (of course, GW does both, with having rules for Boltguns vs Bolt Rifles!). What should matter is internal consistency within a given class of weapons (ex: All Ion Weapons can Overcharge, all Plasma Weapons are S7 AP 2, etc) yet there were too many weapons added which broke the "mold" so to speak.
I imagine the easiest way to recategorize weapons in 40k would be to make a chart. Rows are "scale" (Pistol, Rifle, Sweeper, Heavy, Superheavy), and Columns are "type" (Bolt, Las, etc). Rather than having stuff like Cyclic Ion Rakers, Plasma Culverins, Flamestorms vs Inferno Cannons, etc.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/14 00:59:02
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/14 09:59:12
Subject: So how is everyone enjoying 8th?
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Alluring Sorcerer of Slaanesh
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I've only played a few games and have enjoyed the games so far. I can see it being a better edition but is going to take me time to get fully into it. I am finding some of it confusing at the moment but this is down to me not going fully into reading the rules and learning these.
I'm a little concerned about facing gunline armies with assaulty ones due to the new fallback mechanic. I've realised though that target priorities have changed and that I am going to have to relearn what should fight what.
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No pity, no remorse, no shoes |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/14 18:21:50
Subject: So how is everyone enjoying 8th?
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Dakka Veteran
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Not enjoying it.
Deathstars replaced with "Blobstar".
Cover rules stink.
Aura-Hammer.
Smite spam.
Going first means you usually win.
Games being pretty much "over" on turn 1 when the first player deletes 30% of the opposing players army.
Rules being changed at a pace so fast its hard to keep up.
In regards to LOS blocking terrain, we play with 10-17 ruins on our table. They are as large as 12"x6" on the base and up to 12" tall.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/14 18:23:17
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/15 06:58:45
Subject: So how is everyone enjoying 8th?
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Fresh-Faced New User
Sauce
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There's little I can compare it too, so I'll keep that in mind with my post.
I'm new to 40k and I've really enjoyed the game so far. I observed some friends playing 7th one day and it was overwhelming with all of the little nuances that they had to discuss. It took an hour to decide on that and they hadn't set anything up yet.
I've picked up 8th fairly easily, so it's fun to be able to play games without having to constantly ask for help. I've really enjoyed building my TSons/Tzeentch army and can't wait to complete it.
I've read several posts talking about certain aspects being less than great, like tanks shooting from any point, the deep strike spammers, aura blobs, or the LOS/cover "flaw". What makes those things so difficult to overcome? I mean, it can be safely assumed that a new edition of anything will change or negate a lot of how it was before...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/15 09:35:54
Subject: So how is everyone enjoying 8th?
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!!Goffik Rocker!!
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I don't like terrain rules and how powerful shooty alpha strikes are (still) but the game is great otherwise. GW is trying to really bring some balance in. More than ever.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/08/15 09:36:43
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/15 09:51:55
Subject: Re:So how is everyone enjoying 8th?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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+ Balance is much better.
+ It is much faster.
+ You can use more of your models without restricting yourself to losing. Internal codex balancing is a lot better.
+ It is fun overall.
+ The game is being worked on constantly
- Alpha Strike is still a thing if you don't enjoy building terrain.
- Some armies seriously lack important features. Lots of armies don't have snipers or similar things to kill that fething commisary or weapons that ignore LoS (which is part of why IG is so strong currently).
- Many people complain that the immersion is gone.
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