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The Tyranids travel between galaxies. Everyone else is confined to the Milky Way. It's no contest.

 Lance845 wrote:
Heres a question. If the necrons ran cause they were afraid of the eldar, how come the eldar didnt wipe them all out in their sleep over the next few million years?

Probably because the Eldar were legitimately scared of the Necrons too, and didn't want to risk waking them up. Neither side wanted to continue fighting.

Pink Horror wrote:
The Tyranids travel between galaxies. Everyone else is confined to the Milky Way. It's no contest.

But we only have a rough estimate of how many galaxies without knowing how much stuff was in each, how big they were and if something is behind them.

Tyran wrote:
But even pre-retcon the C'tan feed on stars. So that also doesn't make sense.

They fed on people because they were tastier IIRC. If you had a choice between a nap or eating a flavourless, bland paste for eternity you'd nap too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pink Horror wrote:
The Tyranids travel between galaxies. Everyone else is confined to the Milky Way. It's no contest.

There's not really any reason the other races can't go to other galaxies either though.

Yeah, the third ed codex explicitly states that while stars were nourishing, they tasted bland to the C'tan, and living organisms had much more flavor.
In other words, humans are junk food to the C'tan.

pm713 wrote:

Pink Horror wrote:
The Tyranids travel between galaxies. Everyone else is confined to the Milky Way. It's no contest.

There's not really any reason the other races can't go to other galaxies either though.

With the ability to make lightspeed huggers (ships that can go 99% of the speed of light), and the time scales of the fluff, you could have made multiple trips between the galaxies of the local group. Andromeda is only 2.5 million light years away, even discounting the inertialess drives (which let necrons travel much faster than light) there is no reason why the necrons couldn't have gone to andromeda, spent ten or twenty million years exterminating all life there, and made it back to the milky way in time to take a nice restful 25 million year nap.

In fact there is a lot of fan cannon that the old ones did exactly that, because the Tyranids bear a striking resemblance to certain creatures from the milky way that were present long before the hive fleets reached the milky way. Could be a coincidence, or it could be the old ones grabbed them, went to a nearby galaxy, made the tyranids, wiped out a galaxy or two in preparation, and then sent them to finish the war in heaven. 60 million years is a bonkers amount of time.

I always preferred the idea it was just Tyranids who'd been to the galaxy before.

pm713 wrote:
I always preferred the idea it was just Tyranids who'd been to the galaxy before.

Yup, this is just them following a kind of predatory migration pattern. Following the food as it appears. The galaxy gets hit and sentient life gets wiped out then on to the next galaxy tht draws them in.

Per Master of mankind, The old ones got the construction material used in the webways from outside the galaxy. Then there is pharos as well which appears to be a tyranid style biomechanical thing apparently created by the old ones. So the old ones tyranid connection isn't as far fetched as it first appears.

I thought the Webway was made of wraithbone?

To be fair the people he was talking too probably would not have known what wraithbone is, so it's possible that's what he meant but misattributed the origin. However he is the Emperor, as a character he is held to a pretty high standard of in world knowledge, and was good enough with the web way to make a new entrance to it.

Pretty sure some fluff said something about the Old Ones intergalactic network being breached during the War in Heaven. Okay, quite old. Third Edition Necron Codex, page 26. Not sure if newer stuff mentions them being intergalactic. As for what the Webway is actually made of I have no idea. It's possible different parts were constructed from different materials. Maybe the Eldar can't repair it using the same materials as the Old Ones had?

 Grimgold wrote:

Semper wrote:
My general understanding is that chaos and by virtue of that, Khorne is the most powerful. Chaos is divided, yes, but thats beacuse they literally dont see anything else as a threat other than one another in their great game (a fact well established in canon). Every other time the chaos gods have acted in a unified manner, they've won - simple as. They are the defending champions with their foot on the throat of every species one way or another and even more so, they now have the full marketing might of GW supporting them. Tzeentch really does touch all...

Gork or Mork are so far out of khornes league he'd need four gym badges a waiver from his doctor to challenge one of them to pokebattle. Orks are all powerfully psychic, and are the most numerous race in the galaxy, so their gods are ridiculously OP. One of them (mork I believe) took on all four of the chaos deities, and made a mockery of all four of them.

Any source for me to read? Ive heard that tale before but never seen anything to back it up.

Semper wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:

Semper wrote:
My general understanding is that chaos and by virtue of that, Khorne is the most powerful. Chaos is divided, yes, but thats beacuse they literally dont see anything else as a threat other than one another in their great game (a fact well established in canon). Every other time the chaos gods have acted in a unified manner, they've won - simple as. They are the defending champions with their foot on the throat of every species one way or another and even more so, they now have the full marketing might of GW supporting them. Tzeentch really does touch all...

Gork or Mork are so far out of khornes league he'd need four gym badges a waiver from his doctor to challenge one of them to pokebattle. Orks are all powerfully psychic, and are the most numerous race in the galaxy, so their gods are ridiculously OP. One of them (mork I believe) took on all four of the chaos deities, and made a mockery of all four of them.

Any source for me to read? Ive heard that tale before but never seen anything to back it up.

7th ed codex mentions it, along with some earlier fluff I'm having a hard time tracking down:

Gork and Mork are divine powerhouses, deities so strong they are never truly defeated. They simply shrug off the attacks of other gods with a raucous laugh. Gork grins, bares his long teeth, and lands a mighty blow on his adversary’s head with a spiked club the size of a comet. Mork, always the sneaky one, waits until his foe isn’t looking before clobbering him with a low blow.

The other gods can't even hurt them, but since it comes from the Ork Codex, and the Orks think quite highly of themselves, I suppose it would be more reliable if it came from a neutral third party.

Pink Horror wrote:
The Tyranids travel between galaxies. Everyone else is confined to the Milky Way. It's no contest.

Actually orks are also found outside of the milky way. This is mentioned in both the 3rd ed ork codex and 6ed rulebook. There's this DAoT probe that's been travelling dark space for some 20.000 years and continues to send information back to the Admech. No matter how far it goes it keeps finding signs of orks.

I always liked the idea that the Tyranids are a galaxy wide swarm of locus that wreck galaxies. However, they'd never come across a galaxy as militaristic as the milky ways with actual gods hanging around and wrestling for dominance. Not to mention deamons and necrons. The locust come to find opposition beyond what they'd ever before imagined. feeding suddenly got very difficult.

https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/80kpki/a_coherent_timeline_of_the_war_in_heaven_part_i/ I read through this. It seems like a pretty legit timeline breakdown. I do find it strange that orks are not mentioned anywhere except for the beginning in the form of krorks. Is there no sources on ork activity during the war in heaven? I guess he Eldars are somewhat narcissistic and only record their own history/myths. According to this things did not go great for the necrons and they went to sleep because of the enslaver plauge, not wanting to deal with it. The Eldar probably didn't go around wrecking their tomb worlds because they where scared of awakening the C'tan. Also at some point between the war in heaven and the birth of slaanesh the big 3 become the dominant warp force. We have very little info on how that came to be since the eldar lore mostly concern their own gods. My point is that it's very likely that the eldar actually had their hands full with the big 3 corrupting their society even before they gave birth to Slaanesh.

Edit: About inhabing other galaxies there's no hard fluff on it but very likely that DAoT humans or ancient eldars went to other galaxies with cryo statis ships or something. When the age of strife or men of iron rebellion hit some might have gone "screw this, next galaxy"

 Grimgold wrote:

The other gods can't even hurt them, but since it comes from the Ork Codex, and the Orks think quite highly of themselves, I suppose it would be more reliable if it came from a neutral third party.

Just like the stuff about Necrons and C'tan being so über is from Necron codices, so it is unreliable!

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
Pretty sure some fluff said something about the Old Ones intergalactic network being breached during the War in Heaven. Okay, quite old. Third Edition Necron Codex, page 26. Not sure if newer stuff mentions them being intergalactic. As for what the Webway is actually made of I have no idea. It's possible different parts were constructed from different materials. Maybe the Eldar can't repair it using the same materials as the Old Ones had?

That dumbness was the Dolmen Gates. Hopefully it's gone forever now.

 Crimson wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:

The other gods can't even hurt them, but since it comes from the Ork Codex, and the Orks think quite highly of themselves, I suppose it would be more reliable if it came from a neutral third party.

Just like the stuff about Necrons and C'tan being so über is from Necron codices, so it is unreliable!

The difference being the necrons aren't exactly boastful or big fans of themselves or the C'Tan. The necrons were describing an enemies capabilities, and we have the power of C'Tan verified from third parties such as the eldar who described them as gods.


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pm713 wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
Pretty sure some fluff said something about the Old Ones intergalactic network being breached during the War in Heaven. Okay, quite old. Third Edition Necron Codex, page 26. Not sure if newer stuff mentions them being intergalactic. As for what the Webway is actually made of I have no idea. It's possible different parts were constructed from different materials. Maybe the Eldar can't repair it using the same materials as the Old Ones had?

That dumbness was the Dolmen Gates. Hopefully it's gone forever now.

Unless I'm completely missing my mark (always a possibility) the startide nexus sure sounds like a Dolmen gate.

Doesn't really to me. The Webway is a terrible way for non Eldar to travel. Although I object far less to non-crons having it.

 Grimgold wrote:
and we have the power of C'Tan verified from third parties such as the eldar who described them as gods.

Eldar describe them as monsters who were fought and defeated by Eldar Gods.

 Crimson wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:
and we have the power of C'Tan verified from third parties such as the eldar who described them as gods.

Eldar describe them as monsters who were fought and defeated by Eldar Gods.

Except we have the current fluff, models, and rules to support it. Again, this isn't necron myths and legends. Every Necron around today was around then. The C'tan are star gods. The flayer was killed. Necron tech is beyond all others comprehension. We don't need necron sources to tell us that. Cadia only resisted the eye of terror because of necron tech. Farsight is only still alive because of a necron life force stealing sword. Nobody else can create portal that allow for instantaneous travel from one world to another and strap it to the bottom of a single man fighter jet. Or place a portal to the inside of a star on the palm of their hand to use as a flame thrower.

We know the necron stories are accurate because we have the actual evidence to support it. Unlike eldar myths.

 Lance845 wrote:


Except we have the current fluff, models, and rules to support it. Again, this isn't necron myths and legends. Every Necron around today was around then. The C'tan are star gods. The flayer was killed. Necron tech is beyond all others comprehension. We don't need necron sources to tell us that. Cadia only resisted the eye of terror because of necron tech. Farsight is only still alive because of a necron life force stealing sword. Nobody else can create portal that allow for instantaneous travel from one world to another and strap it to the bottom of a single man fighter jet. Or place a portal to the inside of a star on the palm of their hand to use as a flame thrower.

We know the necron stories are accurate because we have the actual evidence to support it. Unlike eldar myths.

No one is contesting the fact that Necrons have some pretty decent tech. And that the C'tan can be destroyed only lends credence to the idea that the Eldar gods could successfully defeat them.

pm713 wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
Pretty sure some fluff said something about the Old Ones intergalactic network being breached during the War in Heaven. Okay, quite old. Third Edition Necron Codex, page 26. Not sure if newer stuff mentions them being intergalactic. As for what the Webway is actually made of I have no idea. It's possible different parts were constructed from different materials. Maybe the Eldar can't repair it using the same materials as the Old Ones had?

That dumbness was the Dolmen Gates. Hopefully it's gone forever now.

No that was from 3rd Edition, before the Dolmen Gates.

 Crimson wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:


Except we have the current fluff, models, and rules to support it. Again, this isn't necron myths and legends. Every Necron around today was around then. The C'tan are star gods. The flayer was killed. Necron tech is beyond all others comprehension. We don't need necron sources to tell us that. Cadia only resisted the eye of terror because of necron tech. Farsight is only still alive because of a necron life force stealing sword. Nobody else can create portal that allow for instantaneous travel from one world to another and strap it to the bottom of a single man fighter jet. Or place a portal to the inside of a star on the palm of their hand to use as a flame thrower.

We know the necron stories are accurate because we have the actual evidence to support it. Unlike eldar myths.

No one is contesting the fact that Necrons have some pretty decent tech. And that the C'tan can be destroyed only lends credence to the idea that the Eldar gods could successfully defeat them.

Except that the Eldar gods never did. The only people to actually defeat the C'Tan are the C'Tan themselves and the Necrons. Other people have fought C'tan SHARDS. But not full on C'tan.

 Lance845 wrote:

Except that the Eldar gods never did. The only people to actually defeat the C'Tan are the C'Tan themselves and the Necrons. Other people have fought C'tan SHARDS. But not full on C'tan.

Vaul pushed the Void Dragon back. Khaine beat the Nightbringer. If they were out fighting the Eldar it's likely it was before they were sharded.

The Nightbringer supposedly then put the fear of death into most living things but that part beats any of Matt Ward's stuff in terms of ludicrousness.

Yeah, that was pretty bad. I actually like how that's not a thing anymore. One of the few good things about 5th ed I guess.

 Lance845 wrote:


Except that the Eldar gods never did. The only people to actually defeat the C'Tan are the C'Tan themselves and the Necrons.

Khaine did.

White Dwarf 273 wrote:
There was a time when the Eldar were not driven by fear, and did not live their lives in mortal apprehension of the dark fate that awaited them upon death. A warrior could meet his foeman without a thought for his mortal shell; his soul would live on, reborn as a phoenix from the flame.

In that manner did the Eldar join their gods to wage war against the Yngir, the immortal star-spawn that plagued the universe with their eternal thirst and undying warriors. Their minions, the silvered host, parted like a sea before Khaine's wrath, and his followers, the most battle-hardened of all, blazed a flaming path across the galaxy.

Ulthanash and Eldanesh, noble kings of their houses, fought at Khaine's side. Lanthrilaq the Swift and Jaeriela Thrice-Blessed led their peoples, and none could stand before them.

Then came Kaelis Ra, the Death-bringer. Its rampage stained the stars with blood, and none could stand against it, for it wielded the power of death itself. Populations fell before its scythe, its very gaze slew even the greatest of Eldar heroes. Those that died lost everything, even their souls.

But the gods of the Eldar had strengths other than force of arms. The greatest among the Soul-Dancers had begun to convince the C'tan to turn their hunger inward, to consume their brethren in unholy feasts of star-flesh. Kaelis Ra took its blade to its kin, butchering them without mercy as it had the sons of Isha.

Whilst the Death-bringer sought ever darker ways to slake its unquenchable thirst, Khaine was not idle. He struck a bargain with Vaul the Smith-God; in exchange for Kurnous' and Isha's release from Khaine's dungeons, Vaul would forge one hundred swords for Khaine's war against the Yngir. Thus were born the Swords of Vaul; the Blade-Wraiths.

Khaine led his people to war once more, his rage incandescent, the remnants of his army aflame with the heat of vengeance. A hundred Eldar, each armed with a Blade-Wraith, faced a horde of silvered Necrontyr so vast the horizon glittered with metal bodies in every direction. Yet they knew no dread.

The Eldar fought in a great circle, the Swords of Vaul flashing, and the Necrontyr could not penetrate their defence. The soul-might contained within the swords invigorated their wielders and every blow smashed apart an unholy foe. Khaine was unstoppable, and his warriors fought with the knowledge that their god was pleased.

The battle lasted seven days and seven nights before the Eldar began to fall. The Yngir's servants had found a weak spot in the circle; Lanthrilaq the Swift was tiring, his face pale, his imperfect sword dull and blunt. The ring of warriors buckled and broke, and the ground shook as Khaine bellowed his anger. Vaul had cheated him; one of the swords was lifeless.

From the ground beneath them burst Kaelis Ra, the Nightbringer, and the Eldar fell back for they knew their doom was at hand. With a gesture, Kaelis Ra slew all those near it. With a glance, it condemned the souls of great warriors to an eternity of dust. With a great roar, Khaine levelled his spear and charged.

Scythe and spear clashed over a mound of corpses in a struggle that tore the skies asunder. Khaine's speed and skill was breathtaking, but the Nightbringer was a being of shadow and the Spear of Khaine could not find its mark. Kaelis Ra let its foe exhaust his rage with the patience of death.

Without warning, the Nightbringer swung mightily with his scythe, aiming for Khaine's throat. But Khaine had heeded the counsel of the Laughing God well. As the Nightbringer's form became solid to deliver its blow, Khaine lunged, the tip of his spear driving clean through the Yngir's chest.

Kaelis Ra burst apart in an explosion of silvered shards that nearly cleft Khaine in two as the Yngir's essence tore free of physical form. The silvered warriors around him fell to the earth as the impact spread ever outward, returning to the ground from whence they came. Soon, only Khaine remained, howling his victory.

But victory came at a price. Shards of the Yngir's flesh, driven deep into Khaine's body by the cataclysmic demise of his foe, melted in the fires of the War God's wrath. The silver poison flowed into his bloodstream, forever tainting his physical incarnation with the aspect of the Reaper.

Kaelis Ra cannot truly die, for it is death incarnate. Raging at its defeat, its quintessence howled throughout space, entering every one of the Eldar race and cursing them with the terror of the grave. Thus it was that the seed of the Eldar's downfall was sown, and ultimately, the way of reincarnation was closed to them forever.'

— transcription of the story of 'The Birth of Fear', a Harlequin dance

Wow that story is pure allegory, khaine the warp God cannot enter the psysical plaine, like all warp gods, so quite likely it was an eldar warrior possessed by khaine, the swords were likely extremely advanced guns with shield generators and powered by soul stones of some type, likely even warp based weapons.

Khaine being tainted is again, just an allegory for the eldar race becoming more martial and thus the emotions changing how they perceived the god of war to look, I could go on but either way we know that the eldar gods cannot enter the material plane so the story is just that, a story, millions of years old and interpreted over and over again, tiny grain of truth blown way out of proportions.

He can enter artificial bodies and soul stones only came to be post fall so it could be literal.

There's no reason the Eldar gods can't take over bodies or constructs. They're basically demons.

 Formosa wrote:
Wow that story is pure allegory, khaine the warp God cannot enter the psysical plaine, like all warp gods, so quite likely it was an eldar warrior possessed by khaine, the swords were likely extremely advanced guns with shield generators and powered by soul stones of some type, likely even warp based weapons.

Khaine being tainted is again, just an allegory for the eldar race becoming more martial and thus the emotions changing how they perceived the god of war to look, I could go on but either way we know that the eldar gods cannot enter the material plane so the story is just that, a story, millions of years old and interpreted over and over again, tiny grain of truth blown way out of proportions.

They could enter material plane in ancient times. Asuryan eventually changed that. And even after that they could manifest part of their power, as avatars. Also, griping about swords! Do you even 40K? Everybody uses swords all the time. And regardless, the main point is that in one way or another Khaine and the Eldar kicked Nightbringer's arse.