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Let's note that the rules from transports do not actually say that they do not count as being on the battlefield; rather only specifies that their abilities do not work while they are embarked unless otherwise stated.
Well, only if you ignore the section in embarking "Remove the unit from the battlefield and place it to one side." That seems a very good indication that the unit does not count as being on the battlefield.
That simply means “don’t balance all your dudes on the tank - pop them to one side and remember they’re inside”. It’s not the same as Teleportarium/webway/etc. deployment.
EDIT: if it means only "don't balance all your dudes on the tank" then they could have said "remove the models". They didn't; they said "remove the unit from the battlefield". That's a specific statement about the location of the unit.
I didn't say it was the same as the other deployment. But, being told to remove the unit from the battlefield when embarking means exactly what it says - they are no longer on the battlefield. Just as being told to "set up on the battlefield" when disembarking means you are now being set up on the battlefield, which means they weren't on the battlefield before. That doesn't mean they are necessarily in reserves, but it does mean that they are off the table. Since the requirement for how many units you must have on the board is at least 50% on the table, by RAW it doesn't matter if they're in reserves or not. It just matters whether they are on the table or off the table.
They really should have said "not in reserves" if that is what they meant, not "on the battlefield". I can see, though, that they might have done specifically so that someone doesn't spam 12 characters into a Chimera and have that allow 13 units to deep strike. Then again, I think it's more likely that they just didn't think about the difference between "not in reserves" and "on the battlefield".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/09 15:24:39
is that 6 Scion units in the Valkyrie? If so, by RAW it's one unit on the battlefield and you'd need to put 5 more units on the table before you could put anything else in reserves off the table beyond what's in the Valkyrie. .
I'm perfectly fine making agreements before the game that units in transports don't count as being where their transport is for "on the batlefield" status; however, you asked what's legal. Barring house rules embarked units are not on the battlefield, as they are removed from the battlefield when they are embarked.
RAW BaconCatBug is right because the tactical reserves states that you must deploy with 50% of your units on the battlefield. The rule doesn't say you have to have 50% not in reserves, they specify that the 50% must be on the battlefield. I agree that they were trying to clear it up with the faq where they stated that units in transports are in the same locale as the transport but sadly it wasn't written in a way that states those units are considered on the battlefield. Of course I have yet t have a game where anyone has argued that stance though. We've all agreed that RAI is units in transports count as on the battlefield for the purposes of reserves. (It really doesn't affect me as I footslog with my armies)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/09 17:47:56
There is no such thing as a plea of innocence in my court. A plea of innocence is guilty of wasting my time. Guilty. - Lord Inquisitor Fyodor Karamazov
In an Imperium of a million worlds, what is the death of one world in the cause of purity?~Inquisition credo
He who allows the alien to live, shares its crime of existence. ~Inquisitor Apollyon
Let's note that the rules from transports do not actually say that they do not count as being on the battlefield; rather only specifies that their abilities do not work while they are embarked unless otherwise stated.
Well, only if you ignore the section in embarking "Remove the unit from the battlefield and place it to one side." That seems a very good indication that the unit does not count as being on the battlefield.
And as I have pointed out, The unit does not embark on the transport at the start of the game. They start embarked already.
So you do not "Remove the unit from the battlefield and place it to one side." they do not use the embark rules that tell you to remove them. They simply start embarked.
The rules for embarking onto a transport do not have any bearing here. They are Embarked and in the same location. (Which is literally what embarked means). Therefore they must be counted just like the transport they are embarked upon is counted. Transport and a single unit embarked = 2 units on the battlefield for Reserves purposes.
40kBRB wrote:When you set up a transport, units can start the battle embarked within it instead of being set up separately – declare what units are embarked inside the transport when you set it up.
40k Designers commentary wrote:When you choose to set up a transport, declare what units (if any) are embarked inside – these are not separate deployment choices.
So instead of deploying outside the transport, they are embarked within the transport. They are not separate deployment choices. They are deployed together within the deployment zone and since you deploy onto the battlefield both transport and units inside (if any) are deployed. and must be on the battlefield.
Zarroc1733 wrote: RAW BaconCatBug is right because the tactical reserves states that you must deploy with 50% of your units on the battlefield.
He is not correct, as I have pointed out. units embarked are deployed...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/09 17:59:54
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
DeathReaper wrote: He is not correct, as I have pointed out. units embarked are deployed...
What part of "On the battlefield" is unclear to you? Not trying to be snide, genuinely asking. A unit that is embarked is not on the battlefield. The rules for embarking literally tell you to remove the unit from the battlefield.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/09 18:15:34
DeathReaper wrote: He is not correct, as I have pointed out. units embarked are deployed...
What part of "On the battlefield" is unclear to you? Not trying to be snide, genuinely asking. A unit that is embarked is not on the battlefield. The rules for embarking literally tell you to remove the unit from the battlefield.
You're pretty upset when someone is as pedantic as you He's right. Technically deployed units never have to embark, they just start that way. Rules inside of the embark mechanic dont apply.
The fluff is like ketchup and mustard on a burger. Yes it's desirable, yes it makes things better, but no it doesn't fundamentally change what you're eating and no you shouldn't just drown the whole meal in it.
Let's note that the rules from transports do not actually say that they do not count as being on the battlefield; rather only specifies that their abilities do not work while they are embarked unless otherwise stated.
Well, only if you ignore the section in embarking "Remove the unit from the battlefield and place it to one side." That seems a very good indication that the unit does not count as being on the battlefield.
And as I have pointed out, The unit does not embark on the transport at the start of the game. They start embarked already.
So you do not "Remove the unit from the battlefield and place it to one side." they do not use the embark rules that tell you to remove them. They simply start embarked.
The rules for embarking onto a transport do not have any bearing here. They are Embarked and in the same location. (Which is literally what embarked means). Therefore they must be counted just like the transport they are embarked upon is counted. Transport and a single unit embarked = 2 units on the battlefield for Reserves purposes.
40kBRB wrote:When you set up a transport, units can start the battle embarked within it instead of being set up separately – declare what units are embarked inside the transport when you set it up.
40k Designers commentary wrote:When you choose to set up a transport, declare what units (if any) are embarked inside – these are not separate deployment choices.
So instead of deploying outside the transport, they are embarked within the transport. They are not separate deployment choices. They are deployed together within the deployment zone and since you deploy onto the battlefield both transport and units inside (if any) are deployed. and must be on the battlefield.
Being separate deployment choices has no bearing on the tactical reserves rule. If embarking (the process of being embarked) removes a unit from the battlefield then the unit can not be on the battlefield when embarked. If the game states that embarking removes the units, then being embarked means the units are removed.
There is no such thing as a plea of innocence in my court. A plea of innocence is guilty of wasting my time. Guilty. - Lord Inquisitor Fyodor Karamazov
In an Imperium of a million worlds, what is the death of one world in the cause of purity?~Inquisition credo
He who allows the alien to live, shares its crime of existence. ~Inquisitor Apollyon
DeathReaper wrote: He is not correct, as I have pointed out. units embarked are deployed...
What part of "On the battlefield" is unclear to you? Not trying to be snide, genuinely asking. A unit that is embarked is not on the battlefield. The rules for embarking literally tell you to remove the unit from the battlefield.
You're pretty upset when someone is as pedantic as you He's right. Technically deployed units never have to embark, they just start that way. Rules inside of the embark mechanic dont apply.
Actually, yes they do.
BRB Page 183 wrote:When you set up a transport, units can start the battle embarked within it instead of being set up separately – declare what units are embarked inside the transport when you set it up
See the word "Embarked"? Now, where would we find such rules? The only rules that deal with the state of "embarked" is the "Embark" action.
BRB Page 183 wrote:If all models in a unit end their move within 3" of a friendly transport, they can embark within it. Remove the unit from the battlefield and place it to one side – it is now embarked inside the transport.
So, we have a rule that alters the method of embarking, by setting them up embarked during deployment instead of having to move within 3" of it. The rest of the rule, removing the unit from the battlefield included, still applies.
"Pedantic" isn't a synonym for "making up rules", nor is it a synonym for "following the rules as written in the rulebook".
What "upsets" me is that this rule is literally as clear as the rule that models that can FLY can shoot after falling back, yet people are still arguing about it because they dislike how it works.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2018/04/09 18:32:17
BRB Page 183 wrote:
If all models in a unit end their move within 3" of a friendly transport, they can embark within it. Remove the unit from the battlefield and place it to one side – it is now embarked inside the transport.
So, we have a rule that alters the method of embarking, by setting them up embarked during deployment instead of having to move within 3" of it. The rest of the rule, removing the unit from the battlefield included, still applies.
and before the game did those models move and end their move within three inches of the transport? Being embarked and embarking is not the same thing.
The fluff is like ketchup and mustard on a burger. Yes it's desirable, yes it makes things better, but no it doesn't fundamentally change what you're eating and no you shouldn't just drown the whole meal in it.
BRB Page 183 wrote: If all models in a unit end their move within 3" of a friendly transport, they can embark within it. Remove the unit from the battlefield and place it to one side – it is now embarked inside the transport. So, we have a rule that alters the method of embarking, by setting them up embarked during deployment instead of having to move within 3" of it. The rest of the rule, removing the unit from the battlefield included, still applies.
and before the game did those models move and end their move within three inches of the transport? Being embarked and embarking is not the same thing.
Did you not read my post? The rule about deployment is a modifier to how a unit embarked. The actual rules for being embarked do not change. There is not some sort of psudo-embarked state deployed models occupy. They are embarked, and not on the battlefield.
Even if we pretend they aren't embarked, they aren't on the battlefield regardless.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/09 18:42:21
BRB Page 183 wrote:
If all models in a unit end their move within 3" of a friendly transport, they can embark within it. Remove the unit from the battlefield and place it to one side – it is now embarked inside the transport.
So, we have a rule that alters the method of embarking, by setting them up embarked during deployment instead of having to move within 3" of it. The rest of the rule, removing the unit from the battlefield included, still applies.
and before the game did those models move and end their move within three inches of the transport? Being embarked and embarking is not the same thing.
But that's a basic rule of English. To be sitting you have to sit. If you stand you are standing. It is the action of entering a state. If you must remove models in the act of embarking, and the act of embarking never brings those models back then the models are removed when they are embarked.
BRB Page 183 wrote:
If all models in a unit end their move within 3" of a friendly transport, they can embark within it. Remove the unit from the battlefield and place it to one side – it is now embarked inside the transport.
So, we have a rule that alters the method of embarking, by setting them up embarked during deployment instead of having to move within 3" of it. The rest of the rule, removing the unit from the battlefield included, still applies.
and before the game did those models move and end their move within three inches of the transport? Being embarked and embarking is not the same thing.
Did you not read my post? The rule about deployment is a modifier to how a unit embarked. The actual rules for being embarked do not change. There is not some sort of psudo-embarked state deployed models occupy. They are embarked, and not on the battlefield.
Even if we pretend they aren't embarked, they aren't on the battlefield regardless.
This. Exactly this
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/09 18:46:11
There is no such thing as a plea of innocence in my court. A plea of innocence is guilty of wasting my time. Guilty. - Lord Inquisitor Fyodor Karamazov
In an Imperium of a million worlds, what is the death of one world in the cause of purity?~Inquisition credo
He who allows the alien to live, shares its crime of existence. ~Inquisitor Apollyon
DeathReaper wrote: He is not correct, as I have pointed out. units embarked are deployed...
What part of "On the battlefield" is unclear to you? Not trying to be snide, genuinely asking. A unit that is embarked is not on the battlefield. The rules for embarking literally tell you to remove the unit from the battlefield.
As I have pointed out, you DO NOT use the rules for embarking onto a transport, so you DO NOT remove the unit from the battlefield. The Rules of the embark mechanic do not apply ever.
The unit starts embarked and is deployed with the transport.
Zarroc1733 wrote: Being separate deployment choices has no bearing on the tactical reserves rule. If embarking (the process of being embarked) removes a unit from the battlefield then the unit can not be on the battlefield when embarked.
Got any rules quotes that say this, because the rules for being embarked do not say that the unit is not on the battlefield.
If the game states that embarking removes the units, then being embarked means the units are removed.
Again are there any rules that say this?
Simply being embarked is not what removes the unit from the battlefield.
The rules for embarking do that, and we do not use the rules for embarking when a unit starts the game inside a transport.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/09 18:49:17
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
DeathReaper wrote: As I have pointed out, you DO NOT use the rules for embarking onto a transport, so you DO NOT remove the unit from the battlefield. The Rules of the embark mechanic do not apply ever.
BRB Page 183 wrote:When you set up a transport, units can start the battle embarked within it instead of being set up separately – declare what units are embarked inside the transport when you set it up
See the word "Embarked"? Now, where would we find such rules? The only rules that deal with the state of "embarked" is the "Embark" action.
BRB Page 183 wrote:If all models in a unit end their move within 3" of a friendly transport, they can embark within it. Remove the unit from the battlefield and place it to one side – it is now embarked inside the transport.
So, we have a rule that alters the method of embarking, by setting them up embarked during deployment instead of having to move within 3" of it. The rest of the rule, removing the unit from the battlefield included, still applies.
"Pedantic" isn't a synonym for "making up rules", nor is it a synonym for "following the rules as written in the rulebook".
What "upsets" me is that this rule is literally as clear as the rule that models that can FLY can shoot after falling back, yet people are still arguing about it because they dislike how it works.
But that's a basic rule of English. To be sitting you have to sit. If you stand you are standing. It is the action of entering a state. If you must remove models in the act of embarking, and the act of embarking never brings those models back then the models are removed when they are embarked.
If someone throws you on your ass in a match of judo have you sat down? But again this is pedantics.
The game has a start state; the games start in that state. rules for embarking dont apply for the setup anymore than movement rules do. You don't need to walk a tactical space marine squad in 6 inch incriments to their deployment space anymore than you need to Embark the units in their transports at the start of the game.
The fluff is like ketchup and mustard on a burger. Yes it's desirable, yes it makes things better, but no it doesn't fundamentally change what you're eating and no you shouldn't just drown the whole meal in it.
davou wrote: The game has a start state; the games start in that state. rules for embarking dont apply for the setup anymore than movement rules do. You don't need to walk a tactical space marine squad in 6 inch incriments to their deployment space anymore than you need to Embark the units in their transports at the start of the game.
Can you quote us on this, or is it purely your understanding of the rule and the game?
I'd like to declare that the "start state" of my Ravenwings as though they had advanced at the start of the game so I get Jink rule in effect. I mean, if they are more than 14" from my board edge, they must've had "advanced" since I can only move 14" per turn with them. I can't seem to find a rule that lets me pick a "start state" for them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/09 19:03:28
Let's note that the rules from transports do not actually say that they do not count as being on the battlefield; rather only specifies that their abilities do not work while they are embarked unless otherwise stated.
Well, only if you ignore the section in embarking "Remove the unit from the battlefield and place it to one side." That seems a very good indication that the unit does not count as being on the battlefield.
And as I have pointed out, The unit does not embark on the transport at the start of the game. They start embarked already.
So you do not "Remove the unit from the battlefield and place it to one side." they do not use the embark rules that tell you to remove them. They simply start embarked.
So, a unit's status is that it is off the table except if it is deployed at the start in a transport on the table? Sorry, the rules don't work that way. Being off the table when embarking applies all the time.
DeathReaper wrote: The rules for embarking onto a transport do not have any bearing here. They are Embarked and in the same location. (Which is literally what embarked means). Therefore they must be counted just like the transport they are embarked upon is counted. Transport and a single unit embarked = 2 units on the battlefield for Reserves purposes.
That's simply not true. The unit starts embarked, but the rules for being embarked still apply, This means that being off the table still applies.
davou wrote: The game has a start state; the games start in that state. rules for embarking dont apply for the setup anymore than movement rules do. You don't need to walk a tactical space marine squad in 6 inch incriments to their deployment space anymore than you need to Embark the units in their transports at the start of the game.
Can you quote us on this, or is it purely your understanding of the rule and the game?
I'd like to declare that the "start state" of my Ravenwings as though they had advanced at the start of the game so I get Jink rule in effect. I mean, if they are more than 14" from my board edge, they must've had "advanced" since I can only move 14" per turn with them. I can't seem to find a rule that lets me pick a "start state" for them.
Spoiler:
TheDefender now sets up all of their units, anywhere on the battlefield. TheAttacker’s units do not start the
game on the battlefield, but use the Planetary Assault
rules
In Planetstrike missions, the
Attacker’s units are not set up on
the battlefield during deployment
and instead start the game in
Reserve. INFANTRY units and
units that can FLY start the game
in orbit, whilst other units start the
game in a landing zone, just off one
edge of the battlefield.
If a mission uses Reserves, it will detail which units in
your army start the game in Reserve – these units are not deployed with the rest of your army.
The fluff is like ketchup and mustard on a burger. Yes it's desirable, yes it makes things better, but no it doesn't fundamentally change what you're eating and no you shouldn't just drown the whole meal in it.
DeathReaper wrote: As I have pointed out, you DO NOT use the rules for embarking onto a transport, so you DO NOT remove the unit from the battlefield. The Rules of the embark mechanic do not apply ever.
BRB Page 183 wrote:When you set up a transport, units can start the battle embarked within it instead of being set up separately – declare what units are embarked inside the transport when you set it up
See the word "Embarked"? Now, where would we find such rules? The only rules that deal with the state of "embarked" is the "Embark" action.
BRB Page 183 wrote:If all models in a unit end their move within 3" of a friendly transport, they can embark within it. Remove the unit from the battlefield and place it to one side – it is now embarked inside the transport.
So, we have a rule that alters the method of embarking, by setting them up embarked during deployment instead of having to move within 3" of it. The rest of the rule, removing the unit from the battlefield included, still applies.
"Pedantic" isn't a synonym for "making up rules", nor is it a synonym for "following the rules as written in the rulebook".
What "upsets" me is that this rule is literally as clear as the rule that models that can FLY can shoot after falling back, yet people are still arguing about it because they dislike how it works.
No they do not. your argument does not hold any water. Specifically the "The only rules that deal with the state of "embarked" is the "Embark" action." which we clearly know is false because units that start the game embarked never used "the 'Embark' action."
Removing the unit from the battlefield can not apply because the unit in question has not yet been deployed.
Embarked is a state of a unit. There are two ways to achieve this. One is to end every models movement within 3 inches of a transport. The other is to start the game embarked.
Units that start embarked never end their move within 3 inches so those rules simply do not apply.
What "upsets" me is that this rule is literally as clear as the rule that models that can FLY, but you are still arguing to the contrary.
davou wrote: The game has a start state; the games start in that state. rules for embarking dont apply for the setup anymore than movement rules do. You don't need to walk a tactical space marine squad in 6 inch incriments to their deployment space anymore than you need to Embark the units in their transports at the start of the game.
Can you quote us on this, or is it purely your understanding of the rule and the game?
I'd like to declare that the "start state" of my Ravenwings as though they had advanced at the start of the game so I get Jink rule in effect. I mean, if they are more than 14" from my board edge, they must've had "advanced" since I can only move 14" per turn with them. I can't seem to find a rule that lets me pick a "start state" for them.
If there were any actual rules for that, you could start "as though they had advanced at the start of the game" but Ravenwings do not have any rules like that. Being embarked does however.
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
DeathReaper wrote: If there were any actual rules for that, you could start "as though they had advanced at the start of the game" but Ravenwings do not have any rules like that. Being embarked does however.
Except, as has been quite clearly shown, it doesn't.
DeathReaper wrote: No they do not. your argument does not hold any water. Specifically the "The only rules that deal with the state of "embarked" is the "Embark" action." which we clearly know is false because units that start the game embarked never used "the 'Embark' action."
Removing the unit from the battlefield can not apply because the unit in question has not yet been deployed..[/quote
Yet they have defined a state of not being on the battlefield as a prerequisite of being embarked, which still applies if you star the game that say (BCB highlighted the appropriate sections in his quote).
If the unit is considered on the battlefield, then how can you be seeting it up on the battlefield when disembarking if it's all ready consideered to be there? They'd say it's a REdeployment or something indicating that it's not a state change. This is, a state change, however. It goes from not being on the battlefield to being set up on the battlefield when disembarking. That's another problem with your (incorrect) interpretation.
DeathReaper wrote: No they do not. your argument does not hold any water. Specifically the "The only rules that deal with the state of "embarked" is the "Embark" action." which we clearly know is false because units that start the game embarked never used "the 'Embark' action."
Sorry but that doesn't make any sense. If a unit begins the game embarked in a transport, it has embarked in a transport. The act of embarking, or as you say the "Embark" action, embarks you on a transport. If you are in the "inside a transport" locale, you are embarked in the transport.
DeathReaper wrote: Removing the unit from the battlefield can not apply because the unit in question has not yet been deployed.
This is a direct contradiction to your previous statements claiming that units embarked on a transports are considered a single deployment choice. Are you stating being a deployment choice =/= being deployed?
DeathReaper wrote: Embarked is a state of a unit. There are two ways to achieve this. One is to end every models movement within 3 inches of a transport. The other is to start the game embarked.
No, embarked is not a state of a unit. it is a 'locale' that exists in a 'off battlefield' state. The citation for this has been provided numerous times.
"if units are within 3"... remove the model from the battlefield... it is now embarked in the transport."
The sequence of operation clearly indicates that; it must be X" away, must be removed from transport. Once the conditions are met, they are considered to be embarked.
DeathReaper wrote: Units that start embarked never end their move within 3 inches so those rules simply do not apply.
If they're already embarked, they don't need to be in 3" of a transport. They are already embarked.
DeathReaper wrote: What "upsets" me is that this rule is literally as clear as the rule that models that can FLY, but you are still arguing to the contrary.
It really doesn't, but what "upsets" me is that you refuse to read all of the other pertinent posts and purposely ignore explanations of others, constantly REPEAT yourself without providing any further elaboration of the rationale behind your understanding of the rule, consistently contradict yourself whenever and whereever suits your current post, and just screaming "no you're wrong!"
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/09 19:46:39
DeathReaper wrote: No they do not. your argument does not hold any water. Specifically the "The only rules that deal with the state of "embarked" is the "Embark" action." which we clearly know is false because units that start the game embarked never used "the 'Embark' action."
Sorry but that doesn't make any sense. If a unit begins the game embarked in a transport, it has embarked in a transport. The act of embarking, or as you say the "Embark" action, embarks you on a transport. If you are in the "inside a transport" locale, you are embarked in the transport.
It has not used the Embark rules though. it uses the rules that allow it to start embarked without ever using the rules for embarking.
DeathReaper wrote: Removing the unit from the battlefield can not apply because the unit in question has not yet been deployed.
This is a direct contradiction to your previous statements claiming that units embarked on a transports are considered a single deployment choice. Are you stating being a deployment choice =/= being deployed?
Maybe you did not understand what I wrote.
starting embarked does not = using the rules for embarking the unit.
DeathReaper wrote: Embarked is a state of a unit. There are two ways to achieve this. One is to end every models movement within 3 inches of a transport. The other is to start the game embarked.
No, embarked is not a state of a unit. it is a 'locale' that exists in a 'off battlefield' state. The citation for this has been provided numerous times.
"if units are within 3"... remove the model from the battlefield... it is now embarked in the transport."
The sequence of operation clearly indicates that; it must be X" away, must be removed from transport. Once the conditions are met, they are considered to be embarked.
It is not a " 'locale' that exists in a 'off battlefield' state." because you can be embarked without ever being within 3 inches and embarking.
The "if units are within 3"" is how you embark, that sequence of operation is only for units that want to embark after units have deployed, but that does not happen during deployment.
DeathReaper wrote: Units that start embarked never end their move within 3 inches so those rules simply do not apply.
If they're already embarked, they don't need to be in 3" of a transport. They are already embarked.
During deployment they will never be able to emabark by being within 3 inches. They use those rules in the movement phase, not during deployment.
They are embarked because of the deployment rules, not because of they were within 3 inches and embarked after the game started. This is the major point you are missing.
DeathReaper wrote: What "upsets" me is that this rule is literally as clear as the rule that models that can FLY, but you are still arguing to the contrary.
It really doesn't, but what "upsets" me is that you refuse to read all of the other pertinent posts and purposely ignore explanations of others, constantly REPEAT yourself without providing any further elaboration of the rationale behind your understanding of the rule, consistently contradict yourself whenever and whereever suits your current post, and just screaming "no you're wrong!"
I have read the posts, and your arguments do not hold water as I have clearly explained.
I never contradicted myself. and the repeat is because it seems like your posts miss the rules I have shown or are not being taken into consideration. and I never screamed - "no you're wrong!"
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I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
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40k Designers commentary wrote:
When you choose to set up a transport, declare what units (if any) are embarked inside – these are not separate deployment choices.
This is nor sayibg that embarked units do not count as deployed.
This is saying when a player gets to deploy a unit of their choice they can deploy the transport and the embarked units as that choice.
Otherwise there would have to be a rule to let a player deploy multiple choices at once then the next player deploys however many that was, which makes no sense.
Or you would deploy the transport and as a later choice deploy units one at a time into the transport, which the rules also don't have anything to cover.
No where in that passage does it say the units deployed in a transport are not deployed or don't count, the choice is referring when a player has a turn to deploy a unit choice during deployment.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/09 20:44:07
Don't remember the exact order, but I think you check to see if the vehicle explodes first, then deal that damage.
After that you check for embarked casualties and then place your disembarking models before picking up the wrecked vehicle.
This is correct.
You check to see if the vehicle explodes, if it does, you measure to the units in range. The embarked unit can not be measured to at this point because it is not on the battlefield yet. So they only suffer the other effects.
So... Are units in embarked in a transport on the battlefield or not? It seems like you've already said otherwise in agreement that embarked units are not on battlefield...
So, if a unit starts the game embarked on a transport, it is on the battlefield, but after the deployment, the embarked units are not on the battlefield?
Frankly, do you even recall what it is that you're arguing about/for? As a reminder, this is a thread about whether units that start the game embarked on a transport counting towards having models on the battlefield.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/09 20:52:55
DeathReaper wrote: No they do not. your argument does not hold any water. Specifically the "The only rules that deal with the state of "embarked" is the "Embark" action." which we clearly know is false because units that start the game embarked never used "the 'Embark' action."
Sorry but that doesn't make any sense. If a unit begins the game embarked in a transport, it has embarked in a transport. The act of embarking, or as you say the "Embark" action, embarks you on a transport. If you are in the "inside a transport" locale, you are embarked in the transport.
It has not used the Embark rules though. it uses the rules that allow it to start embarked without ever using the rules for embarking.
Actually, yes you have used the embark rules. "When you set up a transport, units can start the battle embarked instead of being set up separately - declare what units are embarked inside the transport when you set it up." Otherwise, you couldn't start the game embarked in the transport. You still have the condition of them being embarked in the transport, which they have defined as the unit being off the battlefield and set to the side.
DeathReaper wrote: No they do not. your argument does not hold any water. Specifically the "The only rules that deal with the state of "embarked" is the "Embark" action." which we clearly know is false because units that start the game embarked never used "the 'Embark' action."
Sorry but that doesn't make any sense. If a unit begins the game embarked in a transport, it has embarked in a transport. The act of embarking, or as you say the "Embark" action, embarks you on a transport. If you are in the "inside a transport" locale, you are embarked in the transport.
It has not used the Embark rules though. it uses the rules that allow it to start embarked without ever using the rules for embarking.
Actually, yes you have used the embark rules. "When you set up a transport, units can start the battle embarked instead of being set up separately - declare what units are embarked inside the transport when you set it up." Otherwise, you couldn't start the game embarked in the transport. You still have the condition of them being embarked in the transport, which they have defined as the unit being off the battlefield and set to the side.
No, they dont have to embark. Units dont need to embark at the start of the game any more than another unit would need to have fly to be deployed across terrain as if it were not there. The game hasn't yet started, so the rules that govern how models move during the game do not apply. Only the rules governing deployment.
Implying that movement rule apply to deploying is as silly as implying that those same rules apply to how you carry your models into the game shop to play some games.
If the embarking rule applies, then deployement inside of a transport is illegal beause the models can never satisfy the clause of ending their movement within three of the transport because theres no movement phase during deployment.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/09 21:22:39
The fluff is like ketchup and mustard on a burger. Yes it's desirable, yes it makes things better, but no it doesn't fundamentally change what you're eating and no you shouldn't just drown the whole meal in it.
DeathReaper wrote: No they do not. your argument does not hold any water. Specifically the "The only rules that deal with the state of "embarked" is the "Embark" action." which we clearly know is false because units that start the game embarked never used "the 'Embark' action."
Sorry but that doesn't make any sense. If a unit begins the game embarked in a transport, it has embarked in a transport. The act of embarking, or as you say the "Embark" action, embarks you on a transport. If you are in the "inside a transport" locale, you are embarked in the transport.
It has not used the Embark rules though. it uses the rules that allow it to start embarked without ever using the rules for embarking.
Actually, yes you have used the embark rules. "When you set up a transport, units can start the battle embarked instead of being set up separately - declare what units are embarked inside the transport when you set it up." Otherwise, you couldn't start the game embarked in the transport. You still have the condition of them being embarked in the transport, which they have defined as the unit being off the battlefield and set to the side.
No, they dont have to embark. Units dont need to embark at the start of the game any more than another unit would need to have fly to be deployed across terrain as if it were not there. The game hasn't yet started, so the rules that govern how models move during the game do not apply. Only the rules governing deployment.
Implying that movement rule apply to deploying is as silly as implying that those same rules apply to how you carry your models into the game shop to play some games.
If the embarking rule applies, then deployement inside of a transport is illegal beause the models can never satisfy the clause of ending their movement within three of the transport.
Units that are embarked have the properties of what they describe for units that are embarked. The main properties they describe are that they are in the transport, and that they are not on the battlefield.
If that doesn't apply, then you never get to use the disembarking rules for units that start the game embarked, since you can't set up on the battlefield if you're already considered on the battlefield. You nave to be not on the battlefield in order to set up on the battlefield.
He's right. Technically deployed units never have to embark, they just start that way. Rules inside of the embark mechanic dont apply.
