Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Marmatag wrote:
Taking the contrarian stance with 0 experience doesn't make you the champion you think it does.

To anyone who has played Grey Knights, your suggestions come off as really, really bad. Your 350 point double purifier Rhino strategy absolutely floored me with how bad it is, but you think it's some great gambit that just hasn't been thought of.

Where did I say that, exactly? I think it's a unique element that has some potential to have legs. Just like an astral ven dread. Or PC servitors / techmarine / wisdom dreadnought.

That doesn't mean I don't think the book doesn't need changes.

I would really love to be so arrogant that I think I could just pick any unit out of any codex, no matter how bad it is, and make it not only playable, but great.

Again, where did I say things were "great"? My goal is to argue they are not "bad".

But, please, continue to put words in my mouth now that I've incensed you so. Also, the forum is a small segment of the community. Your experiences are not the totality of everything. The forum often veers towards a single path. Like how gunlines are going to be the only list in town, but that doesn't seem to be the way things are shaping up, is it?

Would it make you happy if I listed things I think are bad?

Interceptors are a neat idea, but are bland and have no teeth.
Purgators are pretty pointless, because the psycannon should be 2 damage. Otherwise they're forced to always use onslaught.
Librarians seem totally redundant except for the hood.
Characters are super expensive.
Purifiers are too expensive.
I wish dreads had dual ccw options.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Otherwise I presume you don't mind answering some questions?

- Is a TLC/ML ven dread that can give itself astral aim with a +1 to cast NOT a useful unit?
- Are Psybolts and Psychic Onslaught NOT useful abilities?
- If you're going to ally IG with Custodes "to make them work" why wouldn't you ally IG with GK?
- Is it NOT useful to have a deny +1 on every single unit when facing Ahriman proliferation?
- If a Heavy Psycannon is 30 points and is the equivalent of 2 ACs in points, but 3 ACs in shots doesn't that make it a decent weapon?
- Is it considered a bad to be able to bring Paladins that swing with 5 force weapon attacks each? Or 4 with +1 S? That can also give themselves +1 to wound in the fight phase with +1 to cast?
- A common complaint of dreadnoughts is that they're too slow so why aren't people jumping at the chance to deepstrike them?
- Is it not useful for almost ANY unit to get +1 to cast, spend 1 CP for 3D6P2 on spells and then casting vortex with a 1 in 5 chance for a D6 MW bubble? Yes I am aware of the restrictions.

I'll answer them.

-It is a useful but overpriced unit. Also entirely dependant on the board, most targets small enough AND expensive enough to be worth shooting a LC at behind a LOS blocking wall are also characters. Maybe that would be a good thing to add to the astral aim spell, target characters.
-THIS JUST IN! Stratagems are useful. But also very hard to generate for Grey Knights. You actually have to balance CP usage compared to other armies, GK can't get 1+ invul, reroll any dice, and psychic onslaught every turn. You will pop at most 4 stratagems in a game.
-Didn't read his post.
-It is useful, but did I miss something about Ahriman spam? He is a character. In one specific and EXPENSIVE army to field a detachment of. Since he has a +1 to cast the deny washes out.
-Heavy Psycannon is literally on 2 units in the game, 2 units that are incredibly expensive and you can only take one per unit. You will maybe have 3 Heavy Psycannons. It's a good weapon, that is actually limited. Which means it is an average weapon and there is a opportunity cost. If you think having 3 extra assault cannons in an overpriced army is gamebreaking you're hopeless. If the Heavy Psycannon was on Dreadnoughts, NOW I would say... no one would care still.
-Custodes do it better in every single freaking way. Which is why were talking about them. THEY ALREADY DO IT BETTER ON THEIR TROOPS! FOR CHEAPER. PEOPLE STILL SAY THEY SUCK OR ARE OVERPRICED!
-Because spending CP on a below average unit in a army that has trouble getting CP is bad. It still takes a DS slot as well which means something else will be slogging up the board.
-D6 MW bubble my ass, read the fething spell it is centered on the MODEL, not the UNIT, the NEAREST ENEMY MODEL but the wounds are on a UNIT basis. Vortex of Doom is literally a basic smite until it goes over a 12 in which case IT STILL IS A BASIC SMITE. The positioning of the enemy for this spell to hit more than 2 units would have to be so abhorrent that you likely deepstriked behind their lines in the first place.

Nobody reads Vortex of Doom properly.

Everyone thinks it hits the unit, and then every unit within 3" of that unit. It's within 3" of the target model. And it hits your OWN units.

It is flatly worse than smite.

And Custodes are cheaper than GK.. making it easier to take allies. This isn't rocket science. Custodes + Guard is meta, GK + Guard isn't, for a damn good set of reasons.

And seriously who pays over 200 points for a dreadnought? Just to astral aim itself? I can't even with these suggestions.

Yep forgot that it could hit your own units. What a joke.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Literally anything you suggest for GK between you two Tech and Daedalus has literally already been discussed as a possible strong point for us to exploit to WIN.

It has all been discarded. Because it's fething insanity to do anything that you guys suggested.

 Quickjager wrote:
Yep forgot that it could hit your own units. What a joke.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Literally anything you suggest for GK between you two Tech and Daedalus has literally already been discussed as a possible strong point for us to exploit to WIN.

It has all been discarded. Because it's fething insanity to do anything that you guys suggested.

Oh. It's Quickjaeger. The person who feels marginalized when people discuss Grey Knights units.

Instead of reading his posts, I just imagine the motto SPIEL MACHT FREI and move on. Gets to his point quicker.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Yep forgot that it could hit your own units. What a joke.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Literally anything you suggest for GK between you two Tech and Daedalus has literally already been discussed as a possible strong point for us to exploit to WIN.

It has all been discarded. Because it's fething insanity to do anything that you guys suggested.

Oh. It's Quickjaeger. The person who feels marginalized when people discuss Grey Knights units.

Instead of reading his posts, I just imagine the motto SPIEL MACHT FREI and move on. Gets to his point quicker.

The link you posted does not match your claim.

Also, wow, rude attack post.

Audustum wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Yep forgot that it could hit your own units. What a joke.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Literally anything you suggest for GK between you two Tech and Daedalus has literally already been discussed as a possible strong point for us to exploit to WIN.

It has all been discarded. Because it's fething insanity to do anything that you guys suggested.

Oh. It's Quickjaeger. The person who feels marginalized when people discuss Grey Knights units.

Instead of reading his posts, I just imagine the motto SPIEL MACHT FREI and move on. Gets to his point quicker.

The link you posted does not match your claim.

Also, wow, rude attack post.

Oh, well, thank you for the response.

It's funny you say that, Quickjaeger also said he was not being too negative in that post. When I read it originally, the part where he got all sarcastic, I had the sense he was taking my observations personally. Like it was offensive suggesting anyone seek out other opinions.

But that's not how you read it?

He went on to rant about claims I did not make later in the thread, which is when I decided it's just best to ignore his posts.

It's not that I'm some kind of genius when it comes to Grey Knights, it's just that he is repeating the same thing over and over. It's just that the self-centered hopelessness central to all his posts actually drives people away from the army. Which I think is what people mean when they talk about toxic personalities ruining communities. And other people seem intent on repeating that mantra, like some kind of some death cult.

The way I look at it, there's a line between educating people on the downsides of the Codex and indoctrinating people in some ethos of pure hopelessness. Recycling the same points over and over again, attacking people for using language that is not bleak enough, wrapping responses in rambling rants that take 5 minutes to read... that has nothing to do with educating people about what they are getting into.

I don't feel like I should be obligated to read posts like that, and I don't feel like I should just sit there and watch people spew this garbage. It may be more accurate to say the 8th edition Grey Knights Tactics thread is a whole thread devoted to attacking a single Codex and anyone who disagrees.

But that's not for me to judge. I like the title below your name and noticed some of your previous posts on the subject.

 Marmatag wrote:


And seriously who pays over 200 points for a dreadnought? Just to astral aim itself? I can't even with these suggestions.

It’s 185pts for a Ven Dread with twin-lascannon, missile and Astral Aim, not over 200pts. If you are hiding out of LOS to take advantage of an effective indirect fire platform, you do not buy the ccw.

I like taking GK with Ad Mech. I find they compliment each other pretty well.

Ok guys let's deescalate a bit

 Quickjager wrote:


-It is a useful but overpriced unit. Also entirely dependant on the board, most targets small enough AND expensive enough to be worth shooting a LC at behind a LOS blocking wall are also characters. Maybe that would be a good thing to add to the astral aim spell, target characters.

Only 20 points more than standard. I'd kill for a psychic dread. It's less that you need to shoot something out of LOS and more than you have a very safe firing platform.

-THIS JUST IN! Stratagems are useful. But also very hard to generate for Grey Knights. You actually have to balance CP usage compared to other armies, GK can't get 1+ invul, reroll any dice, and psychic onslaught every turn. You will pop at most 4 stratagems in a game.

Sure, I think IG are mandatory. Absolutely.

-It is useful, but did I miss something about Ahriman spam? He is a character. In one specific and EXPENSIVE army to field a detachment of. Since he has a +1 to cast the deny washes out.

Talking in general the wide use of Ahriman and DPs.

-Heavy Psycannon is literally on 2 units in the game, 2 units that are incredibly expensive and you can only take one per unit. You will maybe have 3 Heavy Psycannons. It's a good weapon, that is actually limited. Which means it is an average weapon and there is a opportunity cost. If you think having 3 extra assault cannons in an overpriced army is gamebreaking you're hopeless. If the Heavy Psycannon was on Dreadnoughts, NOW I would say... no one would care still.

I totally don't think it's game breaking. I think it's a solid weapon on a solid platform.

-Custodes do it better in every single freaking way. Which is why were talking about them. THEY ALREADY DO IT BETTER ON THEIR TROOPS! FOR CHEAPER. PEOPLE STILL SAY THEY SUCK OR ARE OVERPRICED!

Right, they do, but by not a massive margin in a very one dimensional army. Paladins are not "bad" in the grand scheme of things.

-Because spending CP on a below average unit in a army that has trouble getting CP is bad. It still takes a DS slot as well which means something else will be slogging up the board.

-D6 MW bubble my ass, read the fething spell it is centered on the MODEL, not the UNIT, the NEAREST ENEMY MODEL but the wounds are on a UNIT basis. Vortex of Doom is literally a basic smite until it goes over a 12 in which case IT STILL IS A BASIC SMITE. The positioning of the enemy for this spell to hit more than 2 units would have to be so abhorrent that you likely deepstriked behind their lines in the first place.

 techsoldaten wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Yep forgot that it could hit your own units. What a joke.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Literally anything you suggest for GK between you two Tech and Daedalus has literally already been discussed as a possible strong point for us to exploit to WIN.

It has all been discarded. Because it's fething insanity to do anything that you guys suggested.

Oh. It's Quickjaeger. The person who feels marginalized when people discuss Grey Knights units.

Instead of reading his posts, I just imagine the motto SPIEL MACHT FREI and move on. Gets to his point quicker.

The link you posted does not match your claim.

Also, wow, rude attack post.

Oh, well, thank you for the response.

It's funny you say that, Quickjaeger also said he was not being too negative in that post. When I read it originally, the part where he got all sarcastic, I had the sense he was taking my observations personally. Like it was offensive suggesting anyone seek out other opinions.

But that's not how you read it?

He went on to rant about claims I did not make later in the thread, which is when I decided it's just best to ignore his posts.

It's not that I'm some kind of genius when it comes to Grey Knights, it's just that he is repeating the same thing over and over. It's just that the self-centered hopelessness central to all his posts actually drives people away from the army. Which I think is what people mean when they talk about toxic personalities ruining communities. And other people seem intent on repeating that mantra, like some kind of some death cult.

The way I look at it, there's a line between educating people on the downsides of the Codex and indoctrinating people in some ethos of pure hopelessness. Recycling the same points over and over again, attacking people for using language that is not bleak enough, wrapping responses in rambling rants that take 5 minutes to read... that has nothing to do with educating people about what they are getting into.

I don't feel like I should be obligated to read posts like that, and I don't feel like I should just sit there and watch people spew this garbage. It may be more accurate to say the 8th edition Grey Knights Tactics thread is a whole thread devoted to attacking a single Codex and anyone who disagrees.

But that's not for me to judge. I like the title below your name and noticed some of your previous posts on the subject.

I've given up just as much on GK at a competitive level, but I express that by simply disengaging. I've gone Custodes and until GK get massive buffs in some form I traded in grey for gold. The main problem with GK is that they're too expensive for their fragility. If you want to mono-dex them than you ALSO have problems of lacking long-range anti-tank and being too CP hungry.

Custodes, by contrast, are just so efficient for their point cost it's crazy. 3 Bikes with Misericordia are 282 points, 5 Paladins with 2 Psilencers is 291. Paladins have 8 Psilencer shots (with -1 to Hit if they move and shoot those guns, which they will cause they're only 24") and 6/12 Storm Bolter shots. The Bikes have 18/36 Hurricane Bolter shots. Paladins have 5" move. Bikes have 14" move and Fly. Bikes are ObSec, Paladins are not. Paladins have 15 wounds, but the Bikes aren't far behind with 12. Paladins are T4, Bikes are T6 (even Heavy Bolters wound on 5's! Overcharged Plasma only wounds on 3's!). Paladins have 2+/5++ saves, Bikes are 2+/4++. In melee, optimized Paladins (sans hammer) are 20 attacks at S4, Bikes are 12 attacks, re-rolling all wounds on the charge at S6 and 3 attacks at S5. Paladins hit on a 3+ with shooting, Bikes hit on a 2+. Only the Paragon (Paladin Sergeant) hits on a 2+ in melee, others are 3+, all Bikes hit on a 2+. For less points you are just getting so much more and this works with really any similar unit comparison in the GK/Custodes books. Custodes, like GK, also have army-wide 1D3 damage melee weapons.

People bring up the fact GK's are psykers, but the Rule of 1 and Baby-Smite make that almost worthless. ONE unit gets Hammerhand, ONE unit gets Sanctuary, ONE unit can Gate. ALL Bikes have these stats. ALL Custodes have these advantages. Adding in a 1 damage Smite at only 12" range (GK lose 6" on their Smite range) doesn't balance that out.

A big issue is also the meta. We need a major tournament still for all the new changes, but a GK army won't live long against a heavy gunline army. Those usually operate at 36"+ range and/or have flyers (that GK can't assault cause GW didn't put Fly on our Interceptors when we used to have Jump). With the new Deep Strike rules we take FOREVER to get across the board and weather a shooting STORM until our T2 when we can drop in and try to charge. Most GK units should be terrified to even TRY charging a Codex-Tau gunline. Cadian/Catachan artillery is also brutal when you can't land close enough to charge them and have nowhere to hide.

We can't beat heavy assault armies, except maybe Orks. Custodes, even Index Custodes, mulched GK's in melee except for the GMDK. 177 points gets you a unit of 9 Custodian Guard with 9 attacks hitting on 2's, wounding GK on 3's and all 9 wounds have 3++. Conversely, Strikes get only a 6+ save against that and Terminators/Paladins are relying on a 5+ that one-shot a Terminator on average if they get through. A Blood Angels army can drop a Captain Slamguinus in our face who ignores all overwatch, has a re-rollable 3D6 charge and can do a staggering 85ish max damage per turn. Even if he's on the low end he will just delete a GMDK. 'Normal' BA assault units, like Sanguinary Guard, also have Fly so they can charge those nasty shooting fliers and jump over any protective screens. CSM gets Warptime and Berzerkers. Even Harlequins get a version of Warptime.

GK can't even stand against a real psyker army anymore. Thousand Sons and Tyranids throw out more mortal wounds per turn, Tyranids penalize our casting and Thousand Sons get REAL Smite on their characters which is never harder to cast than a 5. Magnus can come in with his huge bonus to cast and re-rolling 1's simply to strip your Sanctuary unit's protection with Death Hex and then blow it out of the water too.

Custodes high durability, high damage and -1 to Hit aura makes it possible to survive and counter-punch these (Psyker heavy armies being the biggest issue for them without allies though). GK just don't have the tools so mine go in the bin except for the occasional fun match.

Don't support that store anymore. If he's not the owner, be sure to inform the owner, they deserve to know that this guy did his best to talk you out of a sale because he was salty that someone would have a stronger list than his own, and that he chose to insult you at the same time for even considering it.

 Marmatag wrote:
Nobody reads Vortex of Doom properly.

Everyone thinks it hits the unit, and then every unit within 3" of that unit. It's within 3" of the target model. And it hits your OWN units.

It is flatly worse than smite.

See above.

And seriously who pays over 200 points for a dreadnought? Just to astral aim itself? I can't even with these suggestions.

110 + 50 + 25 = 185
For a BS2 dreadnought that can hide anywhere? Yea. I would. You might be too good for it, but lots of armies would jump at it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Audustum wrote:
The main problem with GK is that they're too expensive for their fragility. If you want to mono-dex them than you ALSO have problems of lacking long-range anti-tank and being too CP hungry.

As a Thousand Sons player that never leaned on Tzaangors I understand many of the GK problems intimately.

People bring up the fact GK's are psykers, but the Rule of 1 and Baby-Smite make that almost worthless. ONE unit gets Hammerhand, ONE unit gets Sanctuary, ONE unit can Gate. ALL Bikes have these stats. ALL Custodes have these advantages. Adding in a 1 damage Smite at only 12" range (GK lose 6" on their Smite range) doesn't balance that out.

Right, I totally get that. I just don't see a wide enough gap where I would personally say that the army isn't worth anything - in perspective of the full set of tools.

A big issue is also the meta. We need a major tournament still for all the new changes, but a GK army won't live long against a heavy gunline army.

Gunlines are pretty rare so far - partly because of Custodes. T'au is still a problem.

A Blood Angels army can drop a Captain Slamguinus in our face who ignores all overwatch, has a re-rollable 3D6 charge and can do a staggering 85ish max damage per turn. Even if he's on the low end he will just delete a GMDK.

To be fair he kills almost anything, really. That's the other problem I see - GK paying for all these force weapons.

GK can't even stand against a real psyker army anymore. Thousand Sons and Tyranids throw out more mortal wounds per turn, Tyranids penalize our casting and Thousand Sons get REAL Smite on their characters which is never harder to cast than a 5. Magnus can come in with his huge bonus to cast and re-rolling 1's simply to strip your Sanctuary unit's protection with Death Hex and then blow it out of the water too.

I'll have to disagree a bit there. You have the best psychic defense of any army with the +1 to everything. Magnus is a whole different level of course.

Custodes high durability, high damage and -1 to Hit aura makes it possible to survive and counter-punch these (Psyker heavy armies being the biggest issue for them without allies though). GK just don't have the tools so mine go in the bin except for the occasional fun match.

I don't think GK are better than Custodes, but the meta also isn't packing a all Magnificas. There are 14 of them out of 34 detachments. Custodes are cost efficient, but they still aren't cheap and they're horribly one dimensional and predictable.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Yep forgot that it could hit your own units. What a joke.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Literally anything you suggest for GK between you two Tech and Daedalus has literally already been discussed as a possible strong point for us to exploit to WIN.

It has all been discarded. Because it's fething insanity to do anything that you guys suggested.

Oh. It's Quickjaeger. The person who feels marginalized when people discuss Grey Knights units.

Instead of reading his posts, I just imagine the motto SPIEL MACHT FREI and move on. Gets to his point quicker.

You don't seem to get that we have REALLY ACTUALLY tried to thrive in this edition. You can see the optimism in the first 20 pages of the Tactica thread, the discussion of apothecary armies, Voldus and Librarian centered armies. I even went and got myself one of those limited edition Termies chaplains thinking how cool it would be to finally have them. We were actually psyched to have access to so many new units.

But then it wore off. We saw the writing on the wall with some simple math, QoL changes that were reverted or plain gone. Then other codices came out after us. We were old and busted in a flat 2 months.

There is just too much going against elite armies this editon to have a subpar elite codex and hope to have a good time in a match. So god forbid you come and tell me I'm wrong about how the army stands as it is, because you two seem to be acting like its a Weekend at Bernie's except it's the GK army that is dead.

 Quickjager wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Yep forgot that it could hit your own units. What a joke.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Literally anything you suggest for GK between you two Tech and Daedalus has literally already been discussed as a possible strong point for us to exploit to WIN.

It has all been discarded. Because it's fething insanity to do anything that you guys suggested.

Oh. It's Quickjaeger. The person who feels marginalized when people discuss Grey Knights units.

Instead of reading his posts, I just imagine the motto SPIEL MACHT FREI and move on. Gets to his point quicker.

You don't seem to get that we have REALLY ACTUALLY tried to thrive in this edition. You can see the optimism in the first 20 pages of the Tactica thread, the discussion of apothecary armies, Voldus and Librarian centered armies. I even went and got myself one of those limited edition Termies chaplains thinking how cool it would be to finally have them. We were actually psyched to have access to so many new units.

But then it wore off. We saw the writing on the wall with some simple math, QoL changes that were reverted or plain gone. Then other codices came out after us. We were old and busted in a flat 2 months.

There is just too much going against elite armies this editon to have a subpar elite codex and hope to have a good time in a match. So god forbid you come and tell me I'm wrong about how the army stands as it is, because you two seem to be acting like its a Weekend at Bernie's except it's the GK army that is dead.

Hrm. Interesting response.

I have read the entire Tactics thread (but for some of the more recent posts,) along with sources that include other forums, battle reports, non-GK Codexes (for unit comparison,) and Codexes from previous editions (to improve my frame of reference.) I've played many games against Grey Knights, a number of games with my Grey Knights and believe I have an accurate understanding of how the army performs and operates.

As far as I know, I have not said your comments are incorrect (yet.) I have said your comments are purely negative, toxic, and often cause conversation about the army to shut down. I've characterized them as garbage several times and, in general, will not respond to your points.

This is because the entirety of our recent interaction is about your feelings. I acknowledge you are sad about the rules for Grey Knights and that you have a perception the army was shafted in this edition. But there is a difference between being correct and feeling the way you do. I mean, feelings are not correct or incorrect, they are a disposition someone possesses towards an idea. Other people can feel differently about something, and that doesn't mean your feelings are invalid. I have never said you or anyone else should feel a different way, your emotions belong to you.

For example, that that time I suggested players seek alternate sources of information, you seemed really hurt that I would talk about Storm Ravens because some people want to play Terminators. In response, you went on to post a lengthy rant that made claims going far beyond what I actually said, and seemed to be exaggerating my points to where it would seem you are being personally attacked.

When you try to force other people to feel the same way you do, that's where the conversation stops being about Grey Knights and becomes a manipulative attempt to control others. That is not the only time you have done that in the Tactics thread, nor are you the only person who does it. I really did not want to spend the time confronting you, mostly because it would feed this image of persecution you are intent on promoting.

So I just skip your posts. I already know what they are going to say, you feel bad about Grey Knights and believe everything that could be said about them has been said. And anyone who feels different is saying you are not correct, and they are wrong for having a different set of feelings because yours are the right and proper set of feelings to have.

There are times you have been a lot less negative about playing a Grey Knights army and I'm not sure what changed to bring you to this point. Please understand there is nothing personal about it, I just have better ways to use my time. Like most people in the real world, I do not enjoy being told how to feel, or that there is something wrong about my feelings. I don't see why I should be obligated to interact with someone who feels compelled to tell me how to feel, at some point there's a line that gets crossed.

The post I made that seemed to trigger this back and forth was that GK are not as bad as people make them out to be. Please note that is not the same as saying they are competitive, which is something I could care less about. I am simply saying they are not hopeless in response to a comment about the army being 'screwed.' I provided a video battle report to support this claim, where featured GK in a fairly competitive game.

That's a fairly innocuous comment, it doesn't really assert anything other than the idea that playing Grey Knights does not automatically mean you are going to lose every game. It baffles me how you could so much into it or see it as a threat. My impression is that the energy you devote into these bleaker-than-Norwegian-Death-Metal responses is not worth it, and, if you honestly do hate Grey Knights that much, you should consider replacing your models with another army. Complaining about them in online forums and trying to compel others to share that outlook is not healthy and probably a sign of other life issues that need to be addressed.

DM me if you want to talk about it. I'm not a licensed counselor, but I do manage people and focus on helping others move into positions where they can enjoy the most success. In situations like this, I like to remind people you get 24 hours, it's a gift you can do whatever you want with. Happiness is spending that time in a way you enjoy that causes the least amount of damage to those around you.

And please understand, it's not just you. People in this thread have told others they are dumb and bad people for taking Grey Knights units. It's totally possible you are some prince surrounded by knuckledraggers who have sucked you into a spiraling vortex to see who can say the worst things about Grey Knights possible. It's hard to get out of those race-to-the-bottom-type situations, and I'm totally open to the idea you may actually have something to share that's worth reading at some point in the future.

Honestly, I am not judging you here. I just have better things to do than constantly worry about your feelings and resist your attempts to drag others down. I'm going to continue ignoring your posts unless you have something interesting to say.

In the meantime, the perspective of someone who is a relative outsider to the army is that GK units (while expensive) are fundamentally sound, but mechanical issues and arbitrary restrictions limit their viability as a full army. GK's limitations are not easily explained by points alone, as similar units in other armies (i.e. Custodes) tend to perform very well.

It's a very curious hypothesis to those who are looking at it analytically. On paper, Grey Knights should work a lot better than what they do. This is what Deadalus81 and I have been talking about, and there is value in understanding that question more fully. It has not been dealt with in the Tactics thread, at least not in a meaningful way that is objective and free from hyperbole / speculation / excessive emotion.

It's great that you have all this experience playing the army and get tabled all the time or whatever. But try to resist the urge to conflate that experience with an actual analysis of the mechanics of the army. There are other people who have had different experiences - like the ones in that video - and see things differently.

And that's fine. It doesn't mean you are incorrect, or that your feelings are invalid. It just means it's not all about you, and that's okay.

 techsoldaten wrote:

Honestly, I am not judging you here. I just have better things to do than constantly worry about your feelings and resist your attempts to drag others down. I'm going to continue ignoring your posts unless you have something interesting to say.

Really? Coulda fooled me with this post. None of this is relevant to the points he made in this thread. But you said you aren't going to respond to those. Which begs the question of why exactly did you respond to the statements he made in here at all? Just wanted to get all this off your chest?

 Quickjager wrote:

There is just too much going against elite armies this editon to have a subpar elite codex and hope to have a good time in a match. So god forbid you come and tell me I'm wrong about how the army stands as it is, because you two seem to be acting like its a Weekend at Bernie's except it's the GK army that is dead.

I play an elite army. Did you not see the pile of threads absolutely hammering on Thousand Sons or as I'm supposed to call it "Tzeentch Daemonkin"? I haven't played GK, but I sure as hell have an idea for how they might play.

I'm not here to tell you you're wrong, but I look at the London GT lists and NONE of them took CP generating allies. Almost all of them maxed out on GMDK. And when they were done with that they maxed out on LC Razorbacks. One is just a whipping boy for a Shadowsword list.

So there's this pervasive thought that if I just take the maximum of the "good" stuff then that's the best that can be done and I think people need to come to terms with the army a bit. Sure, I get cultists and tzaangors so I can't complain about GK level elite, but I DO have more breathing room after the latest FAQ to get more elite models on the table.

We're not that far in on the FAQ - there is still a ton to uncover and this tournament is going to shape perceptions quite a bit, especially with all the list data available.

 SHUPPET wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

Honestly, I am not judging you here. I just have better things to do than constantly worry about your feelings and resist your attempts to drag others down. I'm going to continue ignoring your posts unless you have something interesting to say.

Really? Coulda fooled me with this post. None of this is relevant to the points he made in this thread. But you said you aren't going to respond to those. Which begs the question of why exactly did you respond to the statements he made in here at all? Just wanted to get all this off your chest?

Judgement means saying that someone is right or wrong. I have not said that.

The points he made in this thread are gross distortions of what other people said, and I believe they were intended strictly to start arguments.

That's what most people call trolling. Is there a reason I should respond to them?

One other point I would make to fence sitters - Custodes are pretty popular. So are mortars. These things are going to draw the eye of Sauro...I mean GW.

Don't expect them to survive as they currently are - especially if they outperform.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
One other point I would make to fence sitters - Custodes are pretty popular. So are mortars. These things are going to draw the eye of Sauro...I mean GW.

Don't expect them to survive as they currently are - especially if they outperform.

I mean, mortars got a really hefty nerf with the rule of three. Average competitive guard list had like 9 mortar HWTs and now it's down to three. those are like 30pt units, they don't make much of a difference if you can only get 9 bases of them on the table.

The other thing about custodes though is that they're LUDICROUSLY cheap to collect by 40k standards. Your allied three captain biker doods is one kit. One fairly expensive kit, but one kit, for like 900ish points of HQs that come ready for their own detachment, and take 15 seconds to paint.

The whole Eye of GW is a good thing.

Some factions are OP more frequently than others (Eldar/SM are usually near the top, Orkz/Sisters are usually near the bottom), but it changes a lot. The evolving rules push the meta to evolve even faster - and not just between the same couple lists. Heck, Sisters were arguably top tier for a while! Sisters, one of the factions most agreed was dead! SM, CSM, R&H, Necrons, Tau, Nids, IG, CWE, and IG have all had recent turns at the top of the heap.

It means that if you collect the army you want, and it's not fringe faction, you're not that much less likely to be competitive in 6 months than most of the other factions out there!

That said, there are some outliers (SM, CWE usually good, Orkz usually bad). But otherwise, if you're a major faction, just wait it out.

That's where GK have it expecially rough. In 5th/6th, they basically got told "I guess you guys are kinda a main faction". And now they're getting relegated to the suppliments with Harlies, Inquisitors, Sisters, etc. So I feel bad for main-GK players because not being a 'main' army seems to greatly decrease their odds of being top dog, outside of skew lists.

The main problem with GK is their small unit make up. They have a TON of HQ options, two troops, and a bunch of Elite choices. It's almost as if they were made to be supplemental as a Vanguard Det, never as a "main force". I think if you dropped Paladins to Troops, it would go a LOOOONG way towards balancing them. They still have all their fluff crap in HQ and Elites. Also, drop the price of DKs to make them more in line with other point efficient Heavy Support units. Their aren't a great deal of Melee focused Heavies, and the fact that this one is somewhat vital to the play ability of the force should mean that it's a more easy to accept cost.

Finally lets make the Psycannons a flat d6, 1 shot. No reason that weapon should be aimed at anything under a Rhino.

Yeah, it is weird how a psycannon is only 1 damage. Not sure what they were thinking.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The main problem with GK is their small unit make up. They have a TON of HQ options, two troops, and a bunch of Elite choices. It's almost as if they were made to be supplemental as a Vanguard Det, never as a "main force". I think if you dropped Paladins to Troops, it would go a LOOOONG way towards balancing them. They still have all their fluff crap in HQ and Elites. Also, drop the price of DKs to make them more in line with other point efficient Heavy Support units. Their aren't a great deal of Melee focused Heavies, and the fact that this one is somewhat vital to the play ability of the force should mean that it's a more easy to accept cost.

Finally lets make the Psycannons a flat d6, 1 shot. No reason that weapon should be aimed at anything under a Rhino.

Yep. Paladins are being robbed in the elite slot. Can't think of a reason to take plain Terminators, especially now that Deathwatch gets better ones.

Focusing on the beta strike. The angle I'm looking at with the current rules is clearing out screens to immediately get to the good stuff. GoI on a Land Raider Crusader is one idea, but there are more efficient options out there.

I understand the FW limitations for GK, but I sometimes run 3 Scorpius' with my Black Legion army. With double shooting, they reliably wipe out multiple infantry units a turn with indirect fire for ~700 points.

Thinking GK is a better army with an allied Deathwatch detachment that includes several of those. Melee-oriented Heavy Support units can have a lot of value, but only with the space to tear into the heart of an opponent's army. One of the reasons people can't agree on Delifers is there's no way to deliver them for melee, but NDKs have that.

re: Psycannons: is that enough of a buff? I really think what holds them back is the fact they are heavy and the AP. In Chaos lists, I don't generally shoot at vehicles with anything less than AP -2.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The main problem with GK is their small unit make up. They have a TON of HQ options, two troops, and a bunch of Elite choices. It's almost as if they were made to be supplemental as a Vanguard Det, never as a "main force". I think if you dropped Paladins to Troops, it would go a LOOOONG way towards balancing them. They still have all their fluff crap in HQ and Elites. Also, drop the price of DKs to make them more in line with other point efficient Heavy Support units. Their aren't a great deal of Melee focused Heavies, and the fact that this one is somewhat vital to the play ability of the force should mean that it's a more easy to accept cost.

Finally lets make the Psycannons a flat d6, 1 shot. No reason that weapon should be aimed at anything under a Rhino.

Yep. Paladins are being robbed in the elite slot. Can't think of a reason to take plain Terminators, especially now that Deathwatch gets better ones.

Focusing on the beta strike. The angle I'm looking at with the current rules is clearing out screens to immediately get to the good stuff. GoI on a Land Raider Crusader is one idea, but there are more efficient options out there.

I understand the FW limitations for GK, but I sometimes run 3 Scorpius' with my Black Legion army. With double shooting, they reliably wipe out multiple infantry units a turn with indirect fire for ~700 points.

Thinking GK is a better army with an allied Deathwatch detachment that includes several of those. Melee-oriented Heavy Support units can have a lot of value, but only with the space to tear into the heart of an opponent's army. One of the reasons people can't agree on Delifers is there's no way to deliver them for melee, but NDKs have that.

re: Psycannons: is that enough of a buff? I really think what holds them back is the fact they are heavy and the AP. In Chaos lists, I don't generally shoot at vehicles with anything less than AP -2.

They can be buffed with psybolts. That kicks them up to S8 AP-2. With 4 shots and variable damage it can take a few wounds for its cost.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
One other point I would make to fence sitters - Custodes are pretty popular. So are mortars. These things are going to draw the eye of Sauro...I mean GW.

Don't expect them to survive as they currently are - especially if they outperform.

I expect bikes to get nerfed. But that is about it. As far as I can tell that is the biggest unit outlier. They're essentially Imperium Flyrants. The rest of the army doesn't really rock the boat.

GK doesn't have "one problem," they have a myriad of problems.

1. Their psychic powers are trash, and are castrated by the rule of 1.
*Gate of Infinity would be solid if it could affect IMPERIUM.
*Astral Aim would be solid if it was a bubble, or could be applied up to 3 times (different units).
*Vortex of Doom would be good if it hit units within 6" of the unit rather than units within 3" of the model
*Sanctuary would be solid if it was a bubble, or could be applied up to 3 times (different units).
*Hammerhand would be solid if it was a bubble, or could be applied up to 3 times (different units).
*Purge Soul has a high ceiling but would be better as a simple calculus - your leadership +1 minus opponent's *unmodified* leadership, as mortal wounds. Personally I would drop this entirely and give them a mobility power like warp time. They need it. Badly. More later.

2. Upgrade Rites of Banishment, it sucks. It's got no flavor at all, and in practice is rarely worth the perils risk. I would drop it entirely and replace it with Cleansing Flame. Inflicts D6 strength 6, ap-1, 1dmg hits to every unit within 12". You can't spam this by virtue of how frigging expensive a model is. Also, librarians shouldn't have this. They should have normal smite. Seriously.

3. Stratagems should be added. There should be a way for GK to break the psychic rule of 1 with a stratagem. There should be a way for GK to auto-cast a power, without the possibility of deny. There should be a way to get significantly increased movement. There should be a way for GK to augment their powers like rites of banishment against Daemons. It should not be passive. Something like 2cp - Rites of banishment deals a flat D3 mortal wounds rather than the hits for this turn. GK should have a reactive defense stratagem to boost invulnerable saves to 3++ for a phase, rather than paying for 1 unit at the start of your turn. Etc.

4. GK models need more attacks. Purifiers lost an attack in 8th, and as it stands the bog-standard GK should be base 2 attacks. Getting into melee is inordinately difficult with this army, and they're already very expensive.

5. Paladins and Terminators need a 4++. Terminators are left out in the cold. GK terminators are the worst terminators in the entire game. A 4++ wouldn't break them, and they might see a turn of manticore fire without crumbling in seconds. This plus the extra attack would help a bit. I would also make them both T5, STR5.

6. Update the weapons. Incinerators are fine where they are. Psilencers should be 12 shots, str4, ap0, 1dmg. Psycannons should be strength 8, ap-2, 3 dmg, with a 36" range. GK melee weapons should ignore invulnerable saves - period. Most models will still get a save against them anyway as their AP isn't that great, but you won't see the annoying "anything better than AP-1 is worthless on your elite models that all have AP-2 or better." It would also make them far more fighty in an edition where everything is about stacking slowed invulnerable saves or wounds.

7. Give GK access to Primaris. Another faction that would benefit immensely from primaris is GK.

8. No mobility. This faction has no mobility. Gate of Infinity and Deep Strike. That's it. Everything is slow as feth, once you drop your expensive terminators or paladins in, people can easily avoid them, if they don't feel like crushing a 5++ in seconds.

Contrary to what people with 0 experience with Grey Knights will tell you, this faction is in a very seriously bad place right now. Not sure why people who have never played GK have a vested interest in arguing how good they are - back to my original challenge - describe the GK lists that are beating you.

I'm guessing you don't play... let's pick Necrons. If you do, just pretend I said $faction.

If a Necron player were to suggest that Monoliths were in a bad place, and suggested they halved their points, doubled their T and W, and added a couple A:10 S10 Ap-5 W:d6 guns to it, are you unqualified to comment?

 Quickjager wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
One other point I would make to fence sitters - Custodes are pretty popular. So are mortars. These things are going to draw the eye of Sauro...I mean GW.

Don't expect them to survive as they currently are - especially if they outperform.

I expect bikes to get nerfed. But that is about it. As far as I can tell that is the biggest unit outlier. They're essentially Imperium Flyrants. The rest of the army doesn't really rock the boat.

I think Bikes are actually balanced within the meta as a whole (inter-faction). They're disproportionately good within their own Codex though (intra-faction). You nerf the bikes with nothing else and you just made another middling faction with no competitive hopes. That's not beyond GW, but you'd think they'd learn.

To fully tweak Custodes into balance, I'd make Bikes pay for their lances (currently 0 points on wargear list). Probably like 8 points or so. I'd lower the cost of spears and storm shields by 2-3 each or more. Allarus get a native 4++. Wardens gets a 5+++ instead of 6+++. That should balance all the existing units (besides Landraiders but they suck for everyone, same largely for non-Forgeworld Dreads).

For GK, I'd give them a stratagem to break the Rule of 1 for 1 CP. Psilencers become Rapid Fire 2 weapons. Psycannons get -1 AP added native and 36" range. Terminators get +1W, Paladins get WS2+ across the board and +1W. Give GK more psychic powers, specifically old Biomancy powers like Iron Arm to boost strength and something to boost toughness. Allow GoI to work on all ADEPTUS ASTARTES keyword. Characters get regular Smite. Baby-Smite is still baby but doesn't reduce your range by 6" for no reason. Brother-Captain's power is changed from doubling-Smite range to a -1 to Hit aura (the Shrouding). Librarians get a 6" aura to add 6" range to Smite and baby-Smite.

Bharring wrote:
I'm guessing you don't play... let's pick Necrons. If you do, just pretend I said $faction.

If a Necron player were to suggest that Monoliths were in a bad place, and suggested they halved their points, doubled their T and W, and added a couple A:10 S10 Ap-5 W:d6 guns to it, are you unqualified to comment?

I am a Necron player.

You are a bad person for mentioning Monoliths. I've already said everything there is to say about Necrons and what about all us Scarab players for not wanting to have to play Monoliths in every game.

While my army is never going to win a game because everything else is better by comparison, I continue to discuss Necrons and keep the models because of some mystifying reason I don't plan to discuss.

This is my encyclopedia of grievances with Necrons for you to read though and consider. It's five pages written in my own shorthand. After you read it, return to this thread to read my rant about some technical issue with Necron units related to comparisons with other armies based on allied detachments anyone can take. Someone will be there to say I have a point, which you can try and decipher.

Your suggestion that Monoliths might not be the worst unit ever is worthless because I am a Necron player, and I have discussed it with my fellow Necron players, and we decided Necrons are the worst army in the game. And you are a bad person for suggesting Necrons are not the absolute worst thing ever, and it's a dumb move including Necron units in any list.

Then come at me bro, because I am a Necron player.

Monoliths need a 2+ save and quantum shielding. For 250 points.
I am totally serious and not taking the piss.
I'm a necron player, so you know I'm right.