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Psycannons used to be effectively a S7 assault cannon. So when assault cannons went to 6 shots, and autocannons when to D2...psycannons should have gotten a better profile.

BrianDavion wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
The GMDK was an added extra-powerful model, and it was an overall bad idea because it does everything so well, you are penalized for not taking as many as you can. That’s bad game design.

No, GK simply need unique units that do unique things that are valuable enough you have a hard choice between which units you want to take. Strike are good right now because they are the cheapest option despite being too expensive for what they do. GKT are garbage because they are vastly more expensive than than what they can do. Purifiers are so handicapped by negative rules on their own datasheet, there is no reason to foot the bill for there again overly expensive models. The list goes on.

But what if Purifiers and GKT were so good, you have to make a real choice on how many of each to take? What if NDKs were worth taking at all? What if?

That’s the problem.

SJ

I feel GKs suffer in a lot of areas from their kits being so multibuild. the differance between Purifiers, strike squads and interceptors are too small IMHO. as is the diff between GKTs and GKPs.

some additional wargear and options that pads out the differances and gives them differant roles might be useful.

for example, if Paladins could take storm shields, but could not take falchion and halbreds you'd have a much starker division between GKTs and Paladins.

Paladins with swords and SS would be nice +2inv could help a lot to get up the board witth stuff like paladins or termintors. SS should also be an option for NDKs in place of one of the shoting weapons.

My point is that GK were supposed to be taking Force Swords with Parry + Sanctuary instead of Storm Shields for their 3++, but GW dropped that ball when they removed Storm Shields from GK AND removed Parry from the game. There were discussion threads on Draigo getting a 2++ if his Titan Sword got Parry back in 6e before 7e launched, and GW confirmed the Titan Sword was not a Nemesis Force Sword so did not have Parry. It was a bit of a thing in those days.

And we could have that rule back, which would make Force Swords more useful and an equal option to Falchions. Halberds really should go back to Striking first.

I am not unopposed to all Force weapons dealing Mortal Wounds, that would give GK a very unique niche as the MW army. If that were the case, I’d even take them without a points reduction. I still advocate for unique unit abilities that are not tied to the Rule of 1. And yes, TDA needs to reduce incoming damage, that would be a good mechanic for survivability unique to TDA models.

SJ

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
TH/SS was an option in the Daemonhunters codex. I wouldn't mind that returning myself.

Stormshields would help, but then they'd need to revise the warding stave, or you'd have a 2++ in melee on all your squads. I do think GK need a lot of love, but 2++ saves are just frustrating to play against.

Are GK *that* bad right now? The only experience I've had against them is a deepstriking 2++ baby cradle that destroyed almost 400 points of Space Wolves in a single turn, and that seemed pretty strong.

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Are GK *that* bad right now? The only experience I've had against them is a deepstriking 2++ baby cradle that destroyed almost 400 points of Space Wolves in a single turn, and that seemed pretty strong.

Uh what did you have that was 400 points? I can't see it killing that much in a single turn.

Probably a fully loaded land raider.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Are GK *that* bad right now? The only experience I've had against them is a deepstriking 2++ baby cradle that destroyed almost 400 points of Space Wolves in a single turn, and that seemed pretty strong.

Uh what did you have that was 400 points? I can't see it killing that much in a single turn.

Lets see if I can remember, it was against my mate's SW army (at his first tourney), iirc it was two squads of 10x Space Wolves with 2x plasma rifles as well as a wolf lord.

The first 10x'er died from a volley of the cradles guns by taking 6+ casualties and then failing morale.

Cradle then multicharged the other 10x'er and the wolf lord.

Here he gave 1 of its attacks to the wolf lord (2+ to hit, 2+ to wound - oof) and one shot the poor wolfboy.
The second 10x'er took the remainder of the attacks and died our next assault phase.

During all that the the Knight only took 1 single wound, 2++ is nutty.

That's so unlikely to ever happen I wouldn't bank on that experience.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That's so unlikely to ever happen I wouldn't bank on that experience.

Huh, checking the stats now - we may have been duped. Does Sanctuary stack with the +1 invul stratagem making it a 2++?

Sanctuary caps it at 3++ iirc. Still might be enough.

But you've made a dire mistake of telling something is good. Community doesn't forgive such things.

 koooaei wrote:
Sanctuary caps it at 3++ iirc. Still might be enough.

But you've made a dire mistake of telling something is good. Community doesn't forgive such things.

Don't get mad because we called you out on your gak defending Crowe.

I thought the GK player might have been cheating, we have instances in the Tactica thread where people ask how GK are doing X, we tell them they can't, turns out the GK player was cheating.

What was the GKGM Dreadknight using? a Hammer? How many wounds is the Wolf Lord? 5?

Because a Dreadknight removing 400 points? Totally possible. Especially if its up against a overcosted unit like a Wraithknight or Land Raider. Just not likely against MSU.

Many things can happen, your opponent can get a heart attack and be unable to finish the game giving you a tasty 23-0 win. But it is hard to build an army around your opponents getting heart attacks. Now a NDK killing a stormshield lord with a single attack and hiting all&wounding all, is not the same as your opponent getting heart attack, but it is still rather rare.

Unless of course your packing some Russian nerv gas or something, like that.

 Eonfuzz wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Are GK *that* bad right now? The only experience I've had against them is a deepstriking 2++ baby cradle that destroyed almost 400 points of Space Wolves in a single turn, and that seemed pretty strong.

Uh what did you have that was 400 points? I can't see it killing that much in a single turn.

Lets see if I can remember, it was against my mate's SW army (at his first tourney), iirc it was two squads of 10x Space Wolves with 2x plasma rifles as well as a wolf lord.

The first 10x'er died from a volley of the cradles guns by taking 6+ casualties and then failing morale.

Cradle then multicharged the other 10x'er and the wolf lord.

Here he gave 1 of its attacks to the wolf lord (2+ to hit, 2+ to wound - oof) and one shot the poor wolfboy.
The second 10x'er took the remainder of the attacks and died our next assault phase.

During all that the the Knight only took 1 single wound, 2++ is nutty.

You have to use the stratagem at the start of your turn to boost the invulnerable save which occurs before the psychic phase, and Sanctuary cannot buff an invulnerable save beyond 3++. So, this is not legal.

Also, the odds of a GMNDK dealing the damage you're describing is incredibly unlikely. And to do everything you're describing, this is a turn 2 play at earliest, meaning you know it's coming and can effectively screen against it, and plan for it. Next turn, Outflank in some Hellblasters and go to work on the GMNDK, or punk it ugly with some Thunderwolf Cavalry.

 Marmatag wrote:


You have to use the stratagem at the start of your turn to boost the invulnerable save which occurs before the psychic phase, and Sanctuary cannot buff an invulnerable save beyond 3++. So, this is not legal.

Heed the Prognosticars modifies your dice roll, not the save result required. So its still a 4++ when you buff it with Sanctuary.

Spartacus wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:


You have to use the stratagem at the start of your turn to boost the invulnerable save which occurs before the psychic phase, and Sanctuary cannot buff an invulnerable save beyond 3++. So, this is not legal.

Heed the Prognosticars modifies your dice roll, not the save result required. So its still a 4++ when you buff it with Sanctuary.

Ok, point conceded. In any case, one GMNDK killing 2 full squads and a wolf lord in 1 shot is very unlikely.

That sounds like a lucky break, getting the Wolf Lord in a single attack.

GMNDK are... okay, at best, and they're probably the best unit in the GK book.


Wolf Lord probably can't beat the GMNDK, but would take a dedicated effort to kill in one turn. One off-hand hit can be lethal, but it's not likely.

 Marmatag wrote:


- snip -

You have to use the stratagem at the start of your turn to boost the invulnerable save which occurs before the psychic phase, and Sanctuary cannot buff an invulnerable save beyond 3++. So, this is not legal.

Also, the odds of a GMNDK dealing the damage you're describing is incredibly unlikely. And to do everything you're describing, this is a turn 2 play at earliest, meaning you know it's coming and can effectively screen against it, and plan for it. Next turn, Outflank in some Hellblasters and go to work on the GMNDK, or punk it ugly with some Thunderwolf Cavalry.

It was turn 1, he started with them on the field and then used a teleport psychic power to shoot the big boy across.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
That sounds like a lucky break, getting the Wolf Lord in a single attack.

GMNDK are... okay, at best, and they're probably the best unit in the GK book.


Wolf Lord probably can't beat the GMNDK, but would take a dedicated effort to kill in one turn. One off-hand hit can be lethal, but it's not likely.

While he did use stratagems *and* psychic powers to give him 2++ and extra fire power, the guy basically ran the baby carrier + a single gk squad and an imperial guard CP battery.
But is a walking 2++ monster mash that can output so much really just 'okay'?

GMDKs are pretty great, but one wiping ~15 GHs and a WL with a single round of attacks after making a 9" charge is still unlikely. Most of the time you won't kill 6+ GHs through shooting, see 4 GHs flee (leadership 8 re-rolling failures), and you won't see a single d6 damage attack kill a 5 wound character through an invulnerable save that is probably re-rollable thanks to command points.

Dude, you were running below average units that got stomped by a very lucky series of rolls of a slightly above average unit.

Whats next? You want to nerf a Monolith because it wiped out 3 tactical squads? If we are talking niche lucky rolls...

I mean we COULD ban Crowe, he can get a 2++ and up to 10 attacks w/ 6 mortal wounds. Combine it with the Death Throes stratagem we got a potential 30 attacks in one fight phase. Enough to kill a Imperial Knight Valiant in one turn.

 koooaei wrote:
Sanctuary caps it at 3++ iirc. Still might be enough.

But you've made a dire mistake of telling something is good. Community doesn't forgive such things.

koooaei the oracle.

 Quickjager wrote:
Dude, you were running below average units that got stomped by a very lucky series of rolls of a slightly above average unit.

Whats next? You want to nerf a Monolith because it wiped out 3 tactical squads? If we are talking niche lucky rolls...

I mean we COULD ban Crowe, he can get a 2++ and up to 10 attacks w/ 6 mortal wounds. Combine it with the Death Throes stratagem we got a potential 30 attacks in one fight phase. Enough to kill a Imperial Knight Valiant in one turn.

Aside from the Wolf Lord's death I don't think it was that much of a hot dice moment, on average GMNDK kills in the shooting phase 5.7 MSU without psychic powers (but with stratagems).

You, my friend are putting words in my mouth. I never at one point said "op op nerf pls"
What I did say was "I think Baby Carriers are great".

The easy fix I think for them is to have a 10% free points if you run an all GK army. So if you’re running battle forged from the GK Dex only 2K fight. You get 2200 points. If your running a 1K GK only games, you get 1100 points. If your adding in some GK with your Guard, or Guard with GK, no points adjustment.

What is a GMDK actaully worth these days? We know it is a good unit - but it seems to cost to much.

If I were to fix it. I would have all DK change the profile of their ranged weapons to assault. This would allow them to shoot with full BS - or take a -1 if they need to get moving.

I would change the cost of the flamer to be more affordable like maybe 25 points instead of 40.

The great sword would get a special rule that it rerolls 1 to hit and wound roll per fight phase.

Then maybe a 10-15 point drop on top of that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 greyknight12 wrote:
Psycannons used to be effectively a S7 assault cannon. So when assault cannons went to 6 shots, and autocannons when to D2...psycannons should have gotten a better profile.

Without question. They should be 6 shot and heavy psy should be 12 shots.

 Eonfuzz wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Sanctuary caps it at 3++ iirc. Still might be enough.

But you've made a dire mistake of telling something is good. Community doesn't forgive such things.

koooaei the oracle.

 Quickjager wrote:
Dude, you were running below average units that got stomped by a very lucky series of rolls of a slightly above average unit.

Whats next? You want to nerf a Monolith because it wiped out 3 tactical squads? If we are talking niche lucky rolls...

I mean we COULD ban Crowe, he can get a 2++ and up to 10 attacks w/ 6 mortal wounds. Combine it with the Death Throes stratagem we got a potential 30 attacks in one fight phase. Enough to kill a Imperial Knight Valiant in one turn.

Aside from the Wolf Lord's death I don't think it was that much of a hot dice moment, on average GMNDK kills in the shooting phase 5.7 MSU without psychic powers (but with stratagems).

You, my friend are putting words in my mouth. I never at one point said "op op nerf pls"
What I did say was "I think Baby Carriers are great".

Look you're telling me killing 2 10 man squads of tacticals is not a hot dice moment? + a Wolf Lord? When the average is 5.7 with both guns? THEN actually losing marines to morale which is pretty rare? After making a 9 inch charge?

if you have issues with "monster mash" you need to realize that there are maybe 3 above average large model creatures that are not Imperial Knights. All of them still lose to a Custodes Jetbike which is cheaper than all of them.

You basically said this guy had one strategy one model + cp battery. This is getting off light really depending on the IG models he had. You need to see real cheese, this is gimmick. Kind of like putting HWS in a Stormlord.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For the record the HWS in a stormlord is a gimmick. Not cheese.

In a small, 1000 point game, a unit like the GMNDK can shine, because with the proper support, it'll be tough to deal with and will have astral aim to shoot all over.

But you're spending 4CP a turn and relying on 2 different psychic powers to get this kind of mileage. Assuming you use 1 or 2 other CP, that's 10 CP in 2 turns.

The second those 2 turns are over, in come the:

Outflanking Hellblasters
Deep striking Dark Reapers
Hemlock Wraithfighters
Deep Striking Kill Teams /w Hellblasters + Special Ammo Intercessors
Xiphons
Imperial Knight Valiant /w Flamer
Imperial Knight Warden / Crusader
Razorbacks with Assault Cannons & Rerolls
Deep Striking Blood Angels
Imperial Guard Manticores & Basilisks /w Cadia rerolls
Outflanking Tallarn Shadowsword
Hive Tyrants, or Genestealers, or Hive Guard
Custodes Bike Squad (they can come in packs of 8. In honesty i'd deploy these on the table against a GMNDK)

Just to name a few.

Of course if you run into Death Hex & Chaos, you already lost the GMNDK turn 1. Maybe your GMNDK killed the Lord of Change but guess what, for 2CP he just came back.

Let's pause for a moment and realize that GMNDKs aren't on tables for reason.

Finally, let's remember that your GMNDK is casting 1 power, which is sanctuary. Anyone who denies this has an easier time popping the baby carrier. And, if you fail it, lolpants, he's toast to average things with dice volume, like TWC, Wulfen, or any of your other SW tools. Bjorn the Fellhanded would probably wreck a baby carrier straight up without that 2++.

People telling you these are "above average" at 2000 points are lying to you. These things suck at 2000 points and do not scale at all, just like the rest of Grey Knights. Meta lists will duke so hard on the GMNDK it isn't even funny.

Here's how i would handle this with my casual Ultramarines list.

First turn, i'd use hellfire shells to hit it for 2d3 mortal wounds. Then i'd smite for probably d3.
Second turn, i'd use hellfire shells to hit it for 2d3 more mortal wounds. Then i'd smite for probably d3.

That's 6d3 mortal wounds.

At this point he's limping if not dead, and my assault cannon razorbacks can probably finish the job. Of course if you come within range of Tigurius and I get null zone off, that would be absolutely stunna shades, and we'd have a good laugh. And by we i mean my garbage marines.

Here's an example of a fun marines list to try that would handle GK at about 1000 points and still be *super casual*:

Spearhead
Librarian
Devastator Squad /w Heavy Bolter & Cherub
Devastator Squad /w Heavy Bolter & Cherub
Devastator Squad /w Heavy Bolter & Cherub
Assault Cannon Razorback /w Hunter Killer
Assault Cannon Razorback /w Hunter Killer
Assault Cannon Razorback /w Hunter Killer

Supreme Command
Captain /w Jump pack
Lieutenant
Lieutenant

You could run this as Raven Guard. That GMNDK would be hitting your duders on 4s after landing with his guns. He'd only be shooting razorbacks. His guns should deal between 2-4 damage to a razorback.

Then you counter attack with the fury the likes of which the world has never seen. Kidding, your counterattack would suck, but it would be enough over 2 turns. He's not dealing a lot of damage at 1000 points and investing everything into the baby carrier. This is assuming he's got a 2++ on that guy. Should he fail it, you're in solid shape to kill it turn 1.

I'd like this...remove psybolt/ psychic onslaught strategms and give every unit this power...

A unit may cast smite, or in place of smite cast force weapon or psybolts.

Smite wc5: 1 wound smite or 3 vs daemons. On a roll of 11+ deal 1d3 wounds or 6 against daemons

Instead of casting smite this phase, the unit may add their psychic prowess to their weapons. Each may be cast by multiple units per turn.

Psybolts: Wc 5. Add +1 strength -1ap to all the unit's ranged weapons.

Casting on a 4 with a battleforged force and affecting all guns in the unit.

Force weapon: wc5.. +1 to str -1ap on cc weapons for the entire unit.

It's fluffy and good. give us two new strategms

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
My point is that GK were supposed to be taking Force Swords with Parry + Sanctuary instead of Storm Shields for their 3++, but GW dropped that ball when they removed Storm Shields from GK AND removed Parry from the game. There were discussion threads on Draigo getting a 2++ if his Titan Sword got Parry back in 6e before 7e launched, and GW confirmed the Titan Sword was not a Nemesis Force Sword so did not have Parry. It was a bit of a thing in those days.

And we could have that rule back, which would make Force Swords more useful and an equal option to Falchions. Halberds really should go back to Striking first.

I am not unopposed to all Force weapons dealing Mortal Wounds, that would give GK a very unique niche as the MW army. If that were the case, I’d even take them without a points reduction. I still advocate for unique unit abilities that are not tied to the Rule of 1. And yes, TDA needs to reduce incoming damage, that would be a good mechanic for survivability unique to TDA models.

SJ

force weapons dealing mortal wounds COULD have a bit of a side effect that isn't good so it's something worth examining (my fear would be suddenly Librarians are the ultimate melee unit or something ) but I do think giving GKs some sort of anti-invul save ability could be really useful at clawing out a intreasting niche for them. If the answer to "well he's packing a lot of re-rollable 3++ saves" is "luckly I brought grey knights" that'd be good for GKs and proably shake the meta up a bit.

The problem with Mortal Wounds is that it deals splash damage, each wound is an individual hit. If GK are dealing MWs in melee (and at range with Psilencers and baby Smite), they have a niche unique to them. They can stay expensive on ppm basis, because individually they’d be worth it. Dealing 10+ MWs per turn is not to bad over a long game, but being able to deal 20+ MW in a turn for an expensive, specialized army makes them a potent choice. And all it takes is a minor change to Rites.

SJ

 Smotejob wrote:
I'd like this...remove psybolt/ psychic onslaught strategms and give every unit this power...

A unit may cast smite, or in place of smite cast force weapon or psybolts.

Smite wc5: 1 wound smite or 3 vs daemons. On a roll of 11+ deal 1d3 wounds or 6 against daemons

Instead of casting smite this phase, the unit may add their psychic prowess to their weapons. Each may be cast by multiple units per turn.

Psybolts: Wc 5. Add +1 strength -1ap to all the unit's ranged weapons.

Casting on a 4 with a battleforged force and affecting all guns in the unit.

Force weapon: wc5.. +1 to str -1ap on cc weapons for the entire unit.

It's fluffy and good. give us two new strategms

On top of this, give our vehicles psychic pilot but limit them to just casting psybolts