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BrianDavion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Here's one that is worth considering..... The Emperor... given what we know of his ambitions and what he's done? It was pretty ballsy. He, seemingly failed, but you gotta give him credit, that level of ambition takes balls of neutronium

I think he's lived so long and he's so jaded that he is no longer afraid of anything, though sitting on the golden throne and still fighting chaos etc. takes incredible will power.

you say those as if they are facts. but they're just your opinions. IMHO the Emperor is indeed capable of fear, in fact I'm of the opinion much of what is driving him IS fear. Fear for humanity

Do you not see where I said 'I think', hardly stating facts.

"the Emperor is indeed capable of fear, in fact I'm of the opinion much of what is driving him IS fear. Fear for humanity" that;s just your opinion, we don't know anything about the emperor, whether he feels fear like us etc. or if its more the Astartes/Primarchs/Custodes type of fear.

Nykona Sharrowkin.

 Generalstoner wrote:
Nykona Sharrowkin.

Shooting Fulgrim was pretty ballsy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Anfauglir wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
You did say otherwise, you said the unequivocally don't feel fear. "Bravery" is a pretty null and void concept in the Space Marine's psyche" your quote. That you are arguing in the face of evidence and are changing your argument, means I can no longer argue with you.

You're confusing what they do in action with what they feel inside while doing it. I never said what they do in action in and of itself cannot be considered brave, especially looking at it from a mortal man's perspective (which is 95% of all lore in the setting). So again, Astartes frames of reference for things, such as the concepts of "fear" and "bravery", are so disconnected with our own they may as well be alien to them. That was the point of my quote. Context matters. Pull words from my posts and isolate them to try and give them different meaning all you want, it ain't gonna help your argument against mine. Marines don't compute charging in with 10-to-1 odds as a brave thing to do, as non-Astartes would, they simply do it without even thinking about it in those terms. While a Guardsman would have to steel themselves, gulp, take a deep breath, steady their nerves, then charge in, Astartes are already halfway down the hill - not having to do any of that.

That was one of the shortest-lived "I'm done"'s I've seen in quite a while. Welcome back, I guess?

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

You called my reasoning and then tried to call it quits, give me a break. I genuinely wanted to call it quits, I did it without insulting you, being magnanimous.

The fact that you A) ignored the chance to do so when I first offered it, and then B) returned to the argument again after saying you were done in less time than it took for me to edit typos in my post speaks volumes against your supposed integrity, I'm afraid.

I quoted you fully:

"Bravery" is a pretty null and void concept in the Space Marine's psyche. To them it is simply one's duty to stand and fight in defiance of the Emperor's enemies. They just... do it. Because that's their purpose. Non-Marines, though? They actually have to summon the courage to do the same. It's pretty simple and self-explanatory"" - Somehow this comment is gone, you either have help editing the page or you deleted this, that is so pathetic.

"Astartes frames of reference for things, such as the concepts of "fear" and "bravery", are so disconnected with our own they may as well be alien to them. That was the point of my quote." This wasn't the point of your quote.

You said explicitly 'null and void', why would you ever use that phrase if you are suggesting they just have a lower degree of bravery. You said the merely do it for duty and I proved you wrong, you also said the lore says they are not brave, again I should you are wrong. That you cannot admit you are wrong is pathetic, you are just embarrassing yourself. You lie and can't admit you are wrong, your integrity is at stake not mine. You've even gone back and edited your comments ppffttt, you can delete them, but you have to look yourself in the mirror, ppfffttt Jesus Christ... ANYONE reading the thread can see that lol. Somehow some of my comments are gone, but the quotes in your comments are still there, even dark apostle 666 comment telling us to stop fighting is there and somehow there are no comments before that of us arguing at all. How can you even do that, have you a mod on your side or something. People reading this lol go back and read this thread and see what this guy has done. Saying I'm done and continuing has nothing to do with integrity lol Supposed would mean I said I had integrity, which I never did lol, no wonder you used that word, projection much.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Generalstoner wrote:
Nykona Sharrowkin.

Shooting Fulgrim was pretty ballsy.

I dunno about that TBH, I suspect ANY sniper would have taken the shot if they had a target as high value as that in their cross hairs

BrianDavion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Generalstoner wrote:
Nykona Sharrowkin.

Shooting Fulgrim was pretty ballsy.

I dunno about that TBH, I suspect ANY sniper would have taken the shot if they had a target as high value as that in their cross hairs

It was still pretty cool.

I think there is a part of being ballsy the "Space Marines can't be ballsy" crowd are missing.

When a British line trooper would march into incoming fire, he is most assuredly being courageous... but given that everyone else is doing it, it doesn't qualify as ballsy. After all everyone else is doing it. In contrast, if my boss gives me gak for being late coming back from work, and I tell him off because I'm the only person there capable of finishing a job by a deadline, that's ballsy, despite no physical courage being involved.

Space Marines can totally be ballsy. I think just about everyone would say that Aeonid Thiel showed some fething balls when he started playing with Guilliman's personal collection of weapons in... was it Know No Fear? The one where the battle of Calth was launched. It's ballsy to be in trouble, figure you don't have much to lose, and entertain yourself with your Primarch's private collection.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
I think there is a part of being ballsy the "Space Marines can't be ballsy" crowd are missing.

When a British line trooper would march into incoming fire, he is most assuredly being courageous... but given that everyone else is doing it, it doesn't qualify as ballsy. After all everyone else is doing it. In contrast, if my boss gives me gak for being late coming back from work, and I tell him off because I'm the only person there capable of finishing a job by a deadline, that's ballsy, despite no physical courage being involved.

Space Marines can totally be ballsy. I think just about everyone would say that Aeonid Thiel showed some fething balls when he started playing with Guilliman's personal collection of weapons in... was it Know No Fear? The one where the battle of Calth was launched. It's ballsy to be in trouble, figure you don't have much to lose, and entertain yourself with your Primarch's private collection.

IIRC Gulliman was kinda impressed by that too

BrianDavion wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
I think there is a part of being ballsy the "Space Marines can't be ballsy" crowd are missing.

When a British line trooper would march into incoming fire, he is most assuredly being courageous... but given that everyone else is doing it, it doesn't qualify as ballsy. After all everyone else is doing it. In contrast, if my boss gives me gak for being late coming back from work, and I tell him off because I'm the only person there capable of finishing a job by a deadline, that's ballsy, despite no physical courage being involved.

Space Marines can totally be ballsy. I think just about everyone would say that Aeonid Thiel showed some fething balls when he started playing with Guilliman's personal collection of weapons in... was it Know No Fear? The one where the battle of Calth was launched. It's ballsy to be in trouble, figure you don't have much to lose, and entertain yourself with your Primarch's private collection.

IIRC Gulliman was kinda impressed by that too

Darned straight he was!

Ignace Karkasy and Guardsman Hawke

Logan Grimnar decapitating a Grey Knight Grand Master and telling the Inquisition to piss off was pretty ballsy.

 Erik_Morkai wrote:
Logan Grimnar decapitating a Grey Knight Grand Master and telling the Inquisition to piss off was pretty ballsy.

Pretty normal behaviour for the Space Wolves lol.

Well, assuming we're treating 'balls' as metaphorical... Cyrene Valantion. A blind and unaugmented human who was nevertheless willing to calmly stand up to a whole squad of freaking Custodes? I think that qualifies as pretty ballsy.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Here's one that is worth considering..... The Emperor... given what we know of his ambitions and what he's done? It was pretty ballsy. He, seemingly failed, but you gotta give him credit, that level of ambition takes balls of neutronium

I think he's lived so long and he's so jaded that he is no longer afraid of anything, though sitting on the golden throne and still fighting chaos etc. takes incredible will power.

you say those as if they are facts. but they're just your opinions. IMHO the Emperor is indeed capable of fear, in fact I'm of the opinion much of what is driving him IS fear. Fear for humanity

Do you not see where I said 'I think', hardly stating facts.

"the Emperor is indeed capable of fear, in fact I'm of the opinion much of what is driving him IS fear. Fear for humanity" that;s just your opinion, we don't know anything about the emperor, whether he feels fear like us etc. or if its more the Astartes/Primarchs/Custodes type of fear.

No, we've just seen the previous 3 pages where you dismiss anything that doesn't fit your narrow criteria that only exists in your head and you make people guess what it is.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Here's one that is worth considering..... The Emperor... given what we know of his ambitions and what he's done? It was pretty ballsy. He, seemingly failed, but you gotta give him credit, that level of ambition takes balls of neutronium

I think he's lived so long and he's so jaded that he is no longer afraid of anything, though sitting on the golden throne and still fighting chaos etc. takes incredible will power.

you say those as if they are facts. but they're just your opinions. IMHO the Emperor is indeed capable of fear, in fact I'm of the opinion much of what is driving him IS fear. Fear for humanity

Do you not see where I said 'I think', hardly stating facts.

"the Emperor is indeed capable of fear, in fact I'm of the opinion much of what is driving him IS fear. Fear for humanity" that;s just your opinion, we don't know anything about the emperor, whether he feels fear like us etc. or if its more the Astartes/Primarchs/Custodes type of fear.

No, we've just seen the previous 3 pages where you dismiss anything that doesn't fit your narrow criteria that only exists in your head and you make people guess what it is.

Yeah and I've also agreed with many of the choices across three pages, but you just ignored them didn't you. You're so predictable.

This is a silly, fun way for people to cheer for a favourite character. It’s not serious. Take a breath, there is no definitive answer.

Sly marbo.

What about the lady captain of Angrons flagship? Didn’t she tell Kharn off?

@TC - I am not a Moderator, lol.

You seem to have conveniently glossed over the following post in your hurry to (days later, bizarrely) launch into another tirade of baseless insults against me:

 BrookM wrote:
This topic has been pinged a few times now and I've cleaned it up here and there.

I WOULD LIKE TO REMIND PEOPLE THAT RULE #1 IS NOT OPTIONAL.

Also, please refrain from quoting entire walls of text.

Unlike you, I never edited my posts half a dozen times after the fact, and unlike you, I’m actually going to do what I say by dropping it here and now. This exchange is over.

 Anfauglir wrote:
@TC - I am not a Moderator, lol.

You seem to have conveniently glossed over the following post in your hurry to (days later, bizarrely) launch into another tirade of baseless insults against me:

 BrookM wrote:
This topic has been pinged a few times now and I've cleaned it up here and there.

I WOULD LIKE TO REMIND PEOPLE THAT RULE #1 IS NOT OPTIONAL.

Also, please refrain from quoting entire walls of text.

Unlike you, I never edited my posts half a dozen times after the fact, and unlike you, I’m actually going to do what I say by dropping it here and now. This exchange is over.

Yeah conveniently all the comments that show you are wrong are all gone (the comments that were there before we were even arguing are gone as well), none that had long quotes, insults or text have been removed, the one where I quoted at length is still there etc. You're just incredibly sad.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
You're just incredibly sad.

Jesus, dude. You just can't quit, can you?



On topic, I'd say that I'd also include Rogal Dorn insofar as his refusal to adopt the Codex Astartes at first almost resulted in a fresh civil war.

 Just Tony wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
You're just incredibly sad.

Jesus, dude. You just can't quit, can you?



On topic, I'd say that I'd also include Rogal Dorn insofar as his refusal to adopt the Codex Astartes at first almost resulted in a fresh civil war.

I dunno, I always intepreted that as Dorn just being stubbron and stamping his feet

BrianDavion wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
You're just incredibly sad.

Jesus, dude. You just can't quit, can you?



On topic, I'd say that I'd also include Rogal Dorn insofar as his refusal to adopt the Codex Astartes at first almost resulted in a fresh civil war.

I dunno, I always intepreted that as Dorn just being stubbron and stamping his feet

I think the codex was probably the worst decision Guilliman ever made. It weakened the Astartes and it didn't protect them at all from becoming traitorous as the Badab war showed All that had to be done is to ban any one person from controlling all the Astartes legions, No wonder Dorn was against it.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
You're just incredibly sad.

Jesus, dude. You just can't quit, can you?



On topic, I'd say that I'd also include Rogal Dorn insofar as his refusal to adopt the Codex Astartes at first almost resulted in a fresh civil war.

I dunno, I always intepreted that as Dorn just being stubbron and stamping his feet

I think the codex was probably the worst decision Guilliman ever made. It weakened the Astartes and it didn't protect them at all from becoming traitorous as the Badab war showed All that had to be done is to ban any one person from controlling all the Astartes legions, No wonder Dorn was against it.

And just how would he do that without breaking Marines down into smaller chunks?

BrianDavion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
You're just incredibly sad.

Jesus, dude. You just can't quit, can you?



On topic, I'd say that I'd also include Rogal Dorn insofar as his refusal to adopt the Codex Astartes at first almost resulted in a fresh civil war.

I dunno, I always intepreted that as Dorn just being stubbron and stamping his feet

I think the codex was probably the worst decision Guilliman ever made. It weakened the Astartes and it didn't protect them at all from becoming traitorous as the Badab war showed All that had to be done is to ban any one person from controlling all the Astartes legions, No wonder Dorn was against it.

And just how would he do that without breaking Marines down into smaller chunks?

As I said, just have no warmaster. The codex did absolutely nothing to stop the Badab war from happening and the splitting of chapters has severely weakened the Astartes capabilities.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
You're just incredibly sad.

Jesus, dude. You just can't quit, can you?



On topic, I'd say that I'd also include Rogal Dorn insofar as his refusal to adopt the Codex Astartes at first almost resulted in a fresh civil war.

I dunno, I always intepreted that as Dorn just being stubbron and stamping his feet

I think the codex was probably the worst decision Guilliman ever made. It weakened the Astartes and it didn't protect them at all from becoming traitorous as the Badab war showed All that had to be done is to ban any one person from controlling all the Astartes legions, No wonder Dorn was against it.

And just how would he do that without breaking Marines down into smaller chunks?

As I said, just have no warmaster. The codex did absolutely nothing to stop the Badab war from happening.

The Codex wasn't suppose to stop the Badab war from happening, the codex meant that when the Badb war happened (and this was the largest conflict of it's time since the heresy) the damage was minimal. There where only 4 chapters that sided with the Astral claws, meaning about 4000 Marines. biiig differance from the heresy era Legions which had about ,100,000 Marines which would have been a FAR more devestating conflict.

So yes, the codex DID it's job. which wasn't to prevent ay space marine ever from going bad, but to limit the damage done when one DID go bad

BrianDavion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
You're just incredibly sad.

Jesus, dude. You just can't quit, can you?



On topic, I'd say that I'd also include Rogal Dorn insofar as his refusal to adopt the Codex Astartes at first almost resulted in a fresh civil war.

I dunno, I always intepreted that as Dorn just being stubbron and stamping his feet

I think the codex was probably the worst decision Guilliman ever made. It weakened the Astartes and it didn't protect them at all from becoming traitorous as the Badab war showed All that had to be done is to ban any one person from controlling all the Astartes legions, No wonder Dorn was against it.

And just how would he do that without breaking Marines down into smaller chunks?

As I said, just have no warmaster. The codex did absolutely nothing to stop the Badab war from happening.

The Codex wasn't suppose to stop the Badab war from happening, the codex meant that when the Badb war happened (and this was the largest conflict of it's time since the heresy) the damage was minimal. There where only 4 chapters that sided with the Astral claws, meaning about 4000 Marines. biiig differance from the heresy era Legions which had about ,100,000 Marines which would have been a FAR more devestating conflict.

So yes, the codex DID it's job. which wasn't to prevent ay space marine ever from going bad, but to limit the damage done when one DID go bad

Splitting the legions into chapters were supposed to never let the HH happen again and the codex details how to do that. The codex never did its job, chapters turn traitor all the time and the Badab war happened. It wouldn't have been worse if the legions were at full strength, because it wouldn't of happened, Huron united the Maelstrom Warders because the were all of the same system and had goals in common, that wouldn't have happened with the founding loyal legions as they are from systems that are isolated from one another and they have very different interests, goals etc. If the founding legions turned it would most likely be one legion in which the rest could sanction, plus the memory of the HH and the bond of loyalty from that would mean they would probably never turn as they haven't in 10,000 years. Now there are so many chapters that have little relation to their founding chapters and have their own differences, difficulties and goals, that's why they turn so often and why its only 2nd founders that ever turn now. Bare in mind also that the Badab war was one of the worst rebellions in Imperial history and they were only chapter strength.

yes stopping the heresy from even happening again, by styming the amount of power over marines any one man can amass. Yet again without the codex the Badb war would have been fought with a hundred thousand marines instead of four thousand seems to me the codex did it's job. Gulliman knew that you can't STOP chaos from corrupting people, so his goal with the codex (as well as the numerous other reformations he brought in such as seperating the imperial army into guard and navy) was to limit the damage. It's classic harm reduction stragety. "This ill isn't something that can be stopped so instead we're going to reduce the harm it can do as much as possiable"

BrianDavion wrote:
yes stopping the heresy from even happening again, by styming the amount of power over marines any one man can amass. Yet again without the codex the Badb war would have been fought with a hundred thousand marines instead of four thousand seems to me the codex did it's job. Gulliman knew that you can't STOP chaos from corrupting people, so his goal with the codex (as well as the numerous other reformations he brought in such as seperating the imperial army into guard and navy) was to limit the damage. It's classic harm reduction stragety. "This ill isn't something that can be stopped so instead we're going to reduce the harm it can do as much as possiable"

It didn't stymy the power really, 7 chapters fought on the side of Huron, 70,000 marines which is as much as some legions. Without a warmaster there would probably never be a HH type rebellion again especially not with the founding chapters and in 10,000 years no founding chapters has ever turned. The codex did nothing but weaken the Astartes and it did nothing to stop a rebellion happening again. Its actually far easier for 2nd founding chapters to secede as many have far less ties to their original chapters etc. The Badab war was massive, Guilliman thought that size of conflict would never happen again with Astartes forces after the introduction of the codex, he was dead wrong. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
yes stopping the heresy from even happening again, by styming the amount of power over marines any one man can amass. Yet again without the codex the Badb war would have been fought with a hundred thousand marines instead of four thousand seems to me the codex did it's job. Gulliman knew that you can't STOP chaos from corrupting people, so his goal with the codex (as well as the numerous other reformations he brought in such as seperating the imperial army into guard and navy) was to limit the damage. It's classic harm reduction stragety. "This ill isn't something that can be stopped so instead we're going to reduce the harm it can do as much as possiable"

It didn't stymy the power really, 7 chapters fought on the side of Huron, 70,000 marines which is as much as some legions. Without a warmaster there would probably never be a HH type rebellion again especially not with the founding chapters and in 10,000 years no founding chapters has ever turned. The codex did nothing but weaken the Astartes and it did nothing to stop a rebellion happening again. Its actually far easier for 2nd founding chapters to secede as many have far less ties to their original chapters etc. The Badab war was massive, Guilliman thought that size of conflict would never happen again with Astartes forces after the introduction of the codex, he was dead wrong. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

7 chapters is 7000 marines not 70,000.

And yet again, Gulliman was RIGHT, the Badb war was the biggest space marine rebellion since the Horus Heresy, and the number of chapters in rebellion where not 7, it was 4 chapters, the Astral Claws, Executioners, Lamenters and the Mantis Warriors. The Tyrants Legion was eistamated to contain another 1000 space marines so... all total, 5000 marines. and if the LARGEST space Marine rebellion since the Heresy was ONLY 5000 Marines? I'd say the Codex has done it's job.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
yes stopping the heresy from even happening again, by styming the amount of power over marines any one man can amass. Yet again without the codex the Badb war would have been fought with a hundred thousand marines instead of four thousand seems to me the codex did it's job. Gulliman knew that you can't STOP chaos from corrupting people, so his goal with the codex (as well as the numerous other reformations he brought in such as seperating the imperial army into guard and navy) was to limit the damage. It's classic harm reduction stragety. "This ill isn't something that can be stopped so instead we're going to reduce the harm it can do as much as possiable"

It didn't stymy the power really, 7 chapters fought on the side of Huron, 70,000 marines which is as much as some legions. Without a warmaster there would probably never be a HH type rebellion again especially not with the founding chapters and in 10,000 years no founding chapters has ever turned. The codex did nothing but weaken the Astartes and it did nothing to stop a rebellion happening again. Its actually far easier for 2nd founding chapters to secede as many have far less ties to their original chapters etc. The Badab war was massive, Guilliman thought that size of conflict would never happen again with Astartes forces after the introduction of the codex, he was dead wrong. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

7 chapters is 7000 marines not 70,000.

And yet again, Gulliman was RIGHT, the Badb war was the biggest space marine rebellion since the Horus Heresy, and the number of chapters in rebellion where not 7, it was 4 chapters, the Astral Claws, Executioners, Lamenters and the Mantis Warriors. The Tyrants Legion was eistamated to contain another 1000 space marines so... all total, 5000 marines. and if the LARGEST space Marine rebellion since the Heresy was ONLY 5000 Marines? I'd say the Codex has done it's job.

So it is facepalm.

Guilliman was not right and if you say her was right you have to evidence rather than just saying he was right. regardless of the numbers, Guilliman's codex failed to stop the Badab war from happening, which was its point, its point was to stop legions banding together, the chapters banded together nonetheless and he still just weakened the Astartes. Plus only second founding chapters have turned. He failed miserably. The precident is set as well, we know he failed so there is nothing from stopping a quarter, half of all chapters joining together and turning against the Imperium. All the codex accomplished was weakening the Astartes. I mean how can you say he was right, the Badab war was just a lower scale version of the HH, he didn't stop anything.