epronovost wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I'm not nuclear rocket surgeon afterall.

That's why your mom is secretly disapponted in you

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Nah, she's more disappointed that I play a game of pretend with little plastic people and spend all my free time on the internet talking about playing pretend with little plastic people. You know, like how most of our parents are disappointed in us.

 Marmatag wrote:
TL,DR: My favorite character didn't win a fight, and i'm upset about it.

This setting is primarily about Chaos. They need to be strong in the lore. I'm reminded of a Horus Heresy scene wherein Horus is blasted by like the entire Space Wolf fleet and takes no damage because he's protected by chaos. Or, Angron blocking a stomp from a Titan.

Chaos is beast mode. The best fighters in the Imperium struggle with Chaos.

Sterling191 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Nah, she's more disappointed that I play a game of pretend with little plastic people and spend all my free time on the internet talking about playing pretend with little plastic people. You know, like how most of our parents are disappointed in us.

Hey now, some of my little people are metal. Lets not be excluding them.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
TL,DR: My favorite character didn't win a fight, and i'm upset about it.

This setting is primarily about Chaos. They need to be strong in the lore. I'm reminded of a Horus Heresy scene wherein Horus is blasted by like the entire Space Wolf fleet and takes no damage because he's protected by chaos. Or, Angron blocking a stomp from a Titan.

Chaos is beast mode. The best fighters in the Imperium struggle with Chaos.

You know.

Unless they're space marines. Like. Literally any space marine with a model to his name. Pick one, I'll bet they take down at least a Greater Daemon of chaos in their lore.

 Marmatag wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
TL,DR: My favorite character didn't win a fight, and i'm upset about it.

This setting is primarily about Chaos. They need to be strong in the lore. I'm reminded of a Horus Heresy scene wherein Horus is blasted by like the entire Space Wolf fleet and takes no damage because he's protected by chaos. Or, Angron blocking a stomp from a Titan.

Chaos is beast mode. The best fighters in the Imperium struggle with Chaos.

You know.

Unless they're space marines. Like. Literally any space marine with a model to his name. Pick one, I'll bet they take down at least a Greater Daemon of chaos in their lore.

I recall Sanguinius losing a fight to a greater daemon. The single best close combat fighter in Imperium's history, including anything alive right now.

And, let's pause for a minute: is your argument that because Celestine is female she was going to lose? Because that's a crap argument. She only loses because of the Pylon, anyway. In a straight up fight she wins. In the fluff and on the table (which is more important anyway).

 nels1031 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
BTW what book/story is this extract from? Because right now we have a single page of a larger story, that's not a whole lot of room for CONTEXT. I mean "Kharne runs up and butchers celestine, the end" is a biiiiiiiiig differance from "they've been fighting for a dozen pages, both getting their hits in, and this is just finally Kharn winning"

Just quoting BrianDavion, but others have asked: Its from the novel "Shroud of Night" by Andy Clark. It was one of the first novels to come out since the fluff moved forward after Cadia was destroyed.

Kharn and Celestine are mostly ancillary characters in the novel about a group of Alpha Legion who are trying to steal a relic with anti-chaos properties that separate and opposing forces of Chaos are trying to destroy/corrupt for their own ends. The Imperials are of course defending the relic, but its a losing battle for them.

The excerpt that OP focused on is near to the culmination of the novel (going off memory, I read the novel when it was released over a year ago) :

Spoiler:

The Alpha Legion squad have seized the relic and are trying to get off world. They have a running battle with Chaos and Imperial forces. Kharn shows up and he's an unstoppable killing machine, as he has been throughout the novel. He handily defeats the main character and his squad, but as he is about to either destroy the relic or the AL leader (can't remember which) Celestine attacks. Its a fairly brief battle, but she gives a good account of herself (she was an unstoppable killing machine for the imperials up to this point). She knows she can't win once Kharn gets his wits about him, but her main objective is to delay Kharn, so that the AL can escape with the relic intact. Its the lesser evil, and its implied that it was her patrons plan. She "dies" satisfied that Chaos snatched defeat from the jaws of victory because of their single mindedness. The relic lives on(for whatever purpose the shifty AL folks have for it), instead of being corrupted or destroyed by the overtly sinister forces of Slaanesh or Khorne. Its essentially a noble rearguard sacrifice.

The above action is maybe, at most, 3 pages of text, and the duel is interspersed with the AL squad ex-filtrating themselves from the scene. To call it "domestic violence level" is an absurdity.

Straight up troll thread, imo. If OP isn't guilty of trolling, they're definitely guilty of being intellectually infantile. Taking a small paragraph from a near 300 page novel and taking it out of context to prove some kind of point is ridiculous. If you are truly concerned about that sequence of events, maybe read it for yourself? Or failing that, ask for clarification on the scene, from someone who read it.

0/10.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
TL,DR: My favorite character didn't win a fight, and i'm upset about it.

This setting is primarily about Chaos. They need to be strong in the lore. I'm reminded of a Horus Heresy scene wherein Horus is blasted by like the entire Space Wolf fleet and takes no damage because he's protected by chaos. Or, Angron blocking a stomp from a Titan.

Chaos is beast mode. The best fighters in the Imperium struggle with Chaos.

You know.

Unless they're space marines. Like. Literally any space marine with a model to his name. Pick one, I'll bet they take down at least a Greater Daemon of chaos in their lore.

I recall Sanguinius losing a fight to a greater daemon. The single best close combat fighter in Imperium's history, including anything alive right now.

And, let's pause for a minute: is your argument that because Celestine is female she was going to lose? Because that's a crap argument. She only loses because of the Pylon, anyway. In a straight up fight she wins. In the fluff and on the table (which is more important anyway).

no, my argument is that in the fluff (which is what's being discussed right now) you can predict with pretty much 100% accuracy who is going to win a given fight based on the following criteria:

1) are they a named character with a model on the tabletop

if answer to 1 is yes for both

2) can one of them allowably die and then come back?

if answer to 2 is no for both (Conveniently, the answer is "yes" for the majority of chaos and xenos named characters)

3) is one a loyalist space marine?

If this chart doesn't have over a 95% success rate in all of 40k fluff as a whole I will eat my hat.

Oh, you mean Ka'Bandha?

Spoiler:

It would not be until the closing days of the Horus Heresy that Sanguinius would once again confront the savage Daemon Lord. During the Battle of Terra, the Bloodthirster confronted the Primarch atop the Eternity Gate of the Imperial Palace which guarded the way to the Emperor's throne room. The Greater Daemon struck Sanguinius, casting the angel upon the broken stone. Preparing to strike a killing blow, the Primarch called upon his last reserves of strength and power. With a massive effort, he confronted the Greater Daemon for the final time and leapt upon the Bloodthirster, seized him about the wrist and ankle and rose up high into the air. Sanguinius slammed the great beast across his knee, breaking the creature's back with a powerful crack. He swung the body of Ka'Bandha around and hurled the broken behemoth into the midst of the daemonic host, slamming the Eternity Gate shut against the ravening hordes of Chaos. The servants of the Ruinous Power would not claim Terra that day, and the Traitor Legions were ultimately defeated when the Emperor bested their Warmaster Horus in single combat aboard his flagship the Vengeful Spirit.

That greater daemon? The one Sanguinius ends up Bane-ing against his knee?

 Ratius wrote:

Kharn died was at the Gates of Terra where he was either slain by Sigismund or a bunch of Blood Angels

Anywhere to read further on this?

Other decent female characters were the Navigator from the NLs trilogy and the female assassins in Nemesis.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Nah, she's more disappointed that I play a game of pretend with little plastic people and spend all my free time on the internet talking about playing pretend with little plastic people. You know, like how most of our parents are disappointed in us.

Hey now, some of my little people are metal. Lets not be excluding them.

Sorry, I don't mean to be a metalist. I mean I have a whole army of metal models, honest!

 Marmatag wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
TL,DR: My favorite character didn't win a fight, and i'm upset about it.

This setting is primarily about Chaos. They need to be strong in the lore. I'm reminded of a Horus Heresy scene wherein Horus is blasted by like the entire Space Wolf fleet and takes no damage because he's protected by chaos. Or, Angron blocking a stomp from a Titan.

Chaos is beast mode. The best fighters in the Imperium struggle with Chaos.

You know.

Unless they're space marines. Like. Literally any space marine with a model to his name. Pick one, I'll bet they take down at least a Greater Daemon of chaos in their lore.

I recall Sanguinius losing a fight to a greater daemon. The single best close combat fighter in Imperium's history, including anything alive right now.

And, let's pause for a minute: is your argument that because Celestine is female she was going to lose? Because that's a crap argument. She only loses because of the Pylon, anyway. In a straight up fight she wins. In the fluff and on the table (which is more important anyway).

no, my argument is that in the fluff (which is what's being discussed right now) you can predict with pretty much 100% accuracy who is going to win a given fight based on the following criteria:

1) are they a named character with a model on the tabletop

if answer to 1 is yes for both

2) can one of them allowably die and then come back?

if answer to 2 is no for both (Conveniently, the answer is "yes" for the majority of chaos and xenos named characters)

3) is one a loyalist space marine?

If this chart doesn't have over a 95% success rate in all of 40k fluff as a whole I will eat my hat.

Oh, you mean Ka'Bandha?

Spoiler:

It would not be until the closing days of the Horus Heresy that Sanguinius would once again confront the savage Daemon Lord. During the Battle of Terra, the Bloodthirster confronted the Primarch atop the Eternity Gate of the Imperial Palace which guarded the way to the Emperor's throne room. The Greater Daemon struck Sanguinius, casting the angel upon the broken stone. Preparing to strike a killing blow, the Primarch called upon his last reserves of strength and power. With a massive effort, he confronted the Greater Daemon for the final time and leapt upon the Bloodthirster, seized him about the wrist and ankle and rose up high into the air. Sanguinius slammed the great beast across his knee, breaking the creature's back with a powerful crack. He swung the body of Ka'Bandha around and hurled the broken behemoth into the midst of the daemonic host, slamming the Eternity Gate shut against the ravening hordes of Chaos. The servants of the Ruinous Power would not claim Terra that day, and the Traitor Legions were ultimately defeated when the Emperor bested their Warmaster Horus in single combat aboard his flagship the Vengeful Spirit.

That greater daemon? The one Sanguinius ends up Bane-ing against his knee?

Your flow chart is bad, and your statistics are made up on the spot.

It's still an example of a lost fight. You can't deny that it happened just because Sanguinius won round two.

But let's rewind to your general argument here. What exactly are you saying? That Celestine should have won the fight outright with little difficulty because she is female? Or because she isn't a space marine? I'm not getting the outrage or the call to action.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Um the Swarmlord wrecked Calgar and nearly killed him. He's down a few limbs and an eye after that fight.

the_scotsman wrote:

There is neither. I'm mostly just laughing at people defending 40k's writing as anything remotely consistent, thought out or not lazy by pointing out just how much of the setting is structured around making sure the Space Marines can be the big heroes and kill the baddies, without having to stop making the models for the baddies they kill.

The initial responses to OP were basically "it'd be really lame if Celestine wasn't allowed to lose a fight because that'd show violence against women" which is true. But it's also really lame that you can predict with nearly 100% accuracy the outcome of any fight by checking if one of the combatants is allowed a Get Out of Dead Free Card and the other is not.

Swarmlord fighting Calgar? I wonder who will win, I wonder if it's the guy who won't just come back....

Urien Rakarth in an arm wrestling contest with Colonel Straken? Well lets see, they make a model for both but Urien has died 6 billion times and regenerates..

The second you say "Celestine Fighting *insert CSM here*" you know Celestine loses because she comes back.

That's exactly as lazy as the "celestine must win because she's a woman" idea that everyone is reviling.

the_scotsman wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Um the Swarmlord wrecked Calgar and nearly killed him. He's down a few limbs and an eye after that fight.

Sorry, you're right, I was confusing Calgar with Dante, Yriel, and Farsight, who've all killed swarmy in single combat.

the_scotsman wrote:
And Commander Farsight has a really super powerful sword, and Dante's got the worlds most meltiest melta pistol, and Thanos can easily beat up hulk to establish how scary he is even before he's got his super macguffin glove because he's got the power of cosmic rays. They're super duper powerful!

Worf Effect is a boring and lazy way to establish a character's strength regardless of whether you come up with a reason for it.

Worf Effect is a boring and lazy way to establish a character's strength regardless of whether you come up with a reason for it.

I agree over all that 40k has an annoying trend of upping the ante to a ridiculous degree just to make characters feel special and that drowns out everything else.

 Eldarsif wrote:


As a Star Trek fan I agree. They wasted him in Next Generation by keeping him a punching bag. Even punching bags need a moment in the sun to establish themselves and that never happened in Next Generation. Deep Space Nine, however, that's where they struck gold.

the_scotsman wrote:
And Commander Farsight has a really super powerful sword, and Dante's got the worlds most meltiest melta pistol, and Thanos can easily beat up hulk to establish how scary he is even before he's got his super macguffin glove because he's got the power of cosmic rays. They're super duper powerful!

Worf Effect is a boring and lazy way to establish a character's strength regardless of whether you come up with a reason for it.

 Eldarsif wrote:

Worf Effect is a boring and lazy way to establish a character's strength regardless of whether you come up with a reason for it.

As a Star Trek fan I agree. They wasted him in Next Generation by keeping him a punching bag. Even punching bags need a moment in the sun to establish themselves and that never happened in Next Generation. Deep Space Nine, however, that's where they struck gold.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

I agree over all that 40k has an annoying trend of upping the ante to a ridiculous degree just to make characters feel special and that drowns out everything else.

Dragonball Z effect.