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Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

How are you getting 4?
I count Annihilation Barge, Doom Scythe and Night Scythe. What's the fourth vehicle armed with it?
And yes, the TD should totally be damage 2. Its supposed to be our Autocannon equivalent, and yet its 1 damage less.

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~1660
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Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
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Ute nation

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

If you're having a tough time killing a 17 point Marine or 12 point Marine I think your army has issues.


the question is not whether you can kill these units, an entire armies worth of firepower should be able to bust up a 180/240 point unit. The question is, is it ever worth it to waste the amount of firepower necessary to do so.

Let's look at a twenty man warrior blob, how many, say dark reapers, does it take to kill one without the opportunity for RP.

dark reapers shooting star swarm missiles
2/3 * 2/3 * 5/6 * 2 = .75 damage per reaper

So to wipe a twenty man blob you would need 20/.75 = 25 dark reaper shooting at them, which is 850 points of reapers to do the deed in a single shooting phase. If they leave even one alive, you could get back 10 warriors the next phase, so it will probably require more just to be safe.

Maybe that's a fluke though, a bad choice on my part, so why don't we try it against the math hammer champs of destroying infantry, aggressors.

aggressors shooting at warriors:
2/3 * 1/2 * 1/2 * 9.5 = 1.5

At 1.5 it would take 14 aggressors or 555 points of aggressors to kill a 280 point unit, and if they leave even 1 alive RP will bring back 10 the next round.

Do either of those scenarios seem like a good investment of offense to you? You see the best way to deal with large blobs is to chip away at them with units that have nothing better to shoot at, a tactic that is demonstrably bad against necrons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
How are you getting 4?
I count Annihilation Barge, Doom Scythe and Night Scythe. What's the fourth vehicle armed with it?
And yes, the TD should totally be damage 2. Its supposed to be our Autocannon equivalent, and yet its 1 damage less.


I was thinking two annihilation barges and 2 flyers (both night scythes, which thanks to the fact that they are not offensively useless, might tip them into useful enough to use them as transports for units).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/29 19:28:05


Necrons - 4k
Dark angels - 2k


"You know what they say about brute force, if it's not working you are not using enough of it" 
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

Yeah, in my experience warriors are usually the units that benefit the most from RP, as they have the numbers to ensure that RP actually works, they actually have a support for their RP, and it takes a surprising amount of effort to remove one squad.

The problem though is that warrior's offensive capabilities are lackluster, so a savvy opponent would go after weaker units that can actually deal damage before dealing with warriors.

You know what would be hilarious? If there was a grot shields equivalent for warriors. You'll be shooting those warriors whether you want to or not

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/11/29 19:33:59


What I have
~4100
~1660
: LM

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in us
Steadfast Grey Hunter




Somerdale, NJ, USA

Necronplayer wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
If its locked to vehicles...maybe. I still don't like it, but if it affects a single unit type then it might not be too bad. It would do something against knights at least, which have annoyingly high invuls.


Rending could be another flavorful option. On a wound roll of 6, AP increases by 2. So a Warrior wound roll of 6 results in an AP-3 wound.


I could get behind "rending" on Gauss weapons instead of Mortal Wounds.

"The only problem with your genepool is that there wasn't a lifeguard on duty to prevent you from swimming."

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The last thing Necrons need is even more reliance on AP in a game where most of the significant threats have an invuln...
   
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Somerdale, NJ, USA

HoundsofDemos wrote:
 wuestenfux wrote:
Some way to block psychic powers would be nice.


This so much. I always found it odd that the faction of soulless robots that created the pylons that held back the eye of terror had such poor psychic defense. They should have the strongest along side sisters of silence.


100% agree & it would be nice to have the option to take Pariahs again.

"The only problem with your genepool is that there wasn't a lifeguard on duty to prevent you from swimming."

"You either die a Morty, or you live long enough to see yourself become a Rick."

- 8k /// - 5k /// - 3k /// - 4k /// - 6k /// - 2k (take out the actual Genestealers, only 1.1k) 
   
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Ute nation

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, in my experience warriors are usually the units that benefit the most from RP, as they have the numbers to ensure that RP actually works, they actually have a support for their RP, and it takes a surprising amount of effort to remove one squad.

The problem though is that warrior's offensive capabilities are lackluster, so a savvy opponent would go after weaker units that can actually deal damage before dealing with warriors.

You know what would be hilarious? If there was a grot shields equivalent for warriors. You'll be shooting those warriors whether you want to or not


Even immortals in cover are a PITA to get rid of in a single volley,

dark reapers shooting star swarm missiles
2/3 * 2/3 * 1/2 * 2 = .44 damage per reaper

That means it takes 10/.44 = 22 dark reapers to get them in a round, which is a commitment of 748 points of dark reapers

For aggressors the story is worse
2/3 * 1/2 * 1/6 * 9.5 = .53 damage per aggressor

So it would take 10/.53 = 19 aggressors to do the job, which is a commitment of 703 points.

Which means it's possible to one shot our infantry, but it's not a good use of resources, and therefore highly unlikely to happen in actual play. If we get to roll RP even once it's better than DR, and if we get to roll it more than once it is way better than DR.

*edit* Also warriors are a great unit for capping midfield objectives, they have obsec, large numbers, and are a royal pain to get rid of. At 240 points they are a good investment to get hold more every round.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Arachnofiend wrote:
The last thing Necrons need is even more reliance on AP in a game where most of the significant threats have an invuln...


Care to cite any examples? Because we would be making this change to let necrons take on heavy vehicles, which do not have typically have an invul save. Knights have an invul save, but short of rotate ion shields on their warlord, -1 ap would still put us at or below their invul save, meaning their invul save wouldn't help them.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/11/29 20:00:09


Necrons - 4k
Dark angels - 2k


"You know what they say about brute force, if it's not working you are not using enough of it" 
   
Made in us
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 Grimgold wrote:

Maybe that's a fluke though, a bad choice on my part, so why don't we try it against the math hammer champs of destroying infantry, aggressors.

aggressors shooting at warriors:
2/3 * 1/2 * 1/2 * 9.5 = 1.5

At 1.5 it would take 14 aggressors or 555 points of aggressors to kill a 280 point unit, and if they leave even 1 alive RP will bring back 10 the next round.

Do either of those scenarios seem like a good investment of offense to you?


I hope you realize that is a great investment...
If we're playing at a 2k level, and you keep up the kill efficiency of 2:1, you will wipe out half your opponents list if you get turn 1.

Hell, even if you can't keep it up, and you only take out 250 more points with the remainder of your list, that is still doing really well being able to take off a quarter of their list before they can respond.

EDIT:
I'm prefer not to cherry pick examples, but in my meta, being able to wipe a 20 model unit in addition to other units is pretty easy to come by. May just be the meta I'm playing in, but from reading the Necrons tactics, it doesn't seem like it's limited to my local scene.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/29 21:23:16


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Grimgold wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

If you're having a tough time killing a 17 point Marine or 12 point Marine I think your army has issues.


the question is not whether you can kill these units, an entire armies worth of firepower should be able to bust up a 180/240 point unit. The question is, is it ever worth it to waste the amount of firepower necessary to do so.

Let's look at a twenty man warrior blob, how many, say dark reapers, does it take to kill one without the opportunity for RP.

dark reapers shooting star swarm missiles
2/3 * 2/3 * 5/6 * 2 = .75 damage per reaper

So to wipe a twenty man blob you would need 20/.75 = 25 dark reaper shooting at them, which is 850 points of reapers to do the deed in a single shooting phase. If they leave even one alive, you could get back 10 warriors the next phase, so it will probably require more just to be safe.

Maybe that's a fluke though, a bad choice on my part, so why don't we try it against the math hammer champs of destroying infantry, aggressors.

aggressors shooting at warriors:
2/3 * 1/2 * 1/2 * 9.5 = 1.5

At 1.5 it would take 14 aggressors or 555 points of aggressors to kill a 280 point unit, and if they leave even 1 alive RP will bring back 10 the next round.

Do either of those scenarios seem like a good investment of offense to you? You see the best way to deal with large blobs is to chip away at them with units that have nothing better to shoot at, a tactic that is demonstrably bad against necrons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
How are you getting 4?
I count Annihilation Barge, Doom Scythe and Night Scythe. What's the fourth vehicle armed with it?
And yes, the TD should totally be damage 2. Its supposed to be our Autocannon equivalent, and yet its 1 damage less.


I was thinking two annihilation barges and 2 flyers (both night scythes, which thanks to the fact that they are not offensively useless, might tip them into useful enough to use them as transports for units).

Wow imagine that. Dark Reapers against their non-preferred target don't kill a lot.

The Aggressor investment is good though so you failed your argument there. Typically people can expect around 2-3× the cost of a unit shooting to remove a particular target and Aggressors do that.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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as I said Aggressors are the math hammer champs, and I try to argue in good faith by presenting the best argument possible. But can you share three units you think would do as well? because so far as I'm aware aggressors are something of an aberration, there just isn't another unit in the game that even comes close in terms of wiping out light infantry. A gak load of mortar teams maybe, but those take up a heavy slot apiece in an army that has much better options for heavies. I'm honestly kind of curious what kind of metas you guys play in where a 20 man squad can be mowed down in a single volley. Because I'm ok being wrong, but I'd like to learn something in the process.

Necrons - 4k
Dark angels - 2k


"You know what they say about brute force, if it's not working you are not using enough of it" 
   
Made in ca
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 Lord Clinto wrote:
HoundsofDemos wrote:
 wuestenfux wrote:
Some way to block psychic powers would be nice.


This so much. I always found it odd that the faction of soulless robots that created the pylons that held back the eye of terror had such poor psychic defense. They should have the strongest along side sisters of silence.


100% agree & it would be nice to have the option to take Pariahs again.


I think we should get Pylons, Blackstone something, as a series of fortifications that mess with psyker powers, messing with casting somehow.

Girl Gamers are the best! 
   
Made in nl
Regular Dakkanaut





I'm suprised the C'tan shards aren't mentioned yet. Y'all cool with how they are?

I think they are... ok-ish. Yea they dish out some reliable mortal wounds and kick the crap out of any character/small elite unit but that's kinda it.

Here are my suggestions:
-All C'tan become S8. This is to make them more of a threat towards vehicles.

-Lower the cost of the Transcendant C'tan or change something else. Right now he is almost objectively weaker than the Nightbringer unless you roll well on his Split Personality upgrades.

-The Deceiver is too reliant on getting first turn/roll a 3 on Grand Illusion. Maybe have him affect the going first/steal the initiative roll? Or make it a solid 3 units he can teleport?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/29 23:41:51


 
   
Made in de
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Somewhere near Hamburg

To make Necrons work better I'd propose the following fixes apart from Point reductions:

-Move Scarabs to Troops Slot.
That'd ease up on the cluttered fast attack Slot and give us plenty more viable army builds to work with. 2 Troop choices neither of which are cheap hinders CP generation greatly which just isnt fair as monofaction in a soupy Environment. Imperium has Guardsmen, Orks have grots, Nids have Rippers, Chaos has cultists and so on. This Change alone would help big time.

-Change the "Monster" keyword from Wraiths to "Infantry" or change the Stratagems/Relics that only affect Infantry to also affect Wraiths.
I mean, if Destroyers can have those Stratagems I suppose Wraiths should also be able to use them. Not being able to port Wraiths is a big deal.

-Reanimation Protocols should also affect Units which have been wiped the previous turn.
Just give a wiped unit one attempt to bring back at least one Model. This would make RP worthwhile again.

-Add the "Character" Keyword to Spyders.
I mean, they ARE the head Units of all other Constructs after all. Right now they die to pretty much every single heavy weapon pointed in their general direction. And it's not like they have much offensive output for their point cost. Maybe reduce their toughness to 5 in the process but the Spyders really need help.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/11/29 23:52:32


Astra Milit..*blam* Astra Milliwhat, heretic? 
   
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I must admit, played a competitive necron dude in a GW store once and put all my fire power into 1 of his 2 20 man blobs... I was index Orks but i finally got ine down to like 3 guys and then in 2 turns he was back up to 18 warriors. Again, I've watched games on youtube where because they've missed one or two guys an entire armies worth can get back up again... RP, in my opinion, isn't a problem that needs to be fixed. I think it's pretty powerful as it is... just Necrons players have to rely too much on 2 or 3 units while the rest of their codex kinda sucks. You balance it out enough and they could become OP. As soon as there is more stuff on the table to distract the opponent then RP becomes worth it again.... "Oh no, you killed my elites, well now my warriors are in you face at full strength." Or "Oh no you killed my 20 warriors so i don't get rp. Well now my elites are in your face at full strength" or "Oh no you killed half of each of my units. Now watch as I roll rp and undo everything you did this turn".

With the above, I'd be happy for scarabs to be troops. It's fluffy and means necrons can play more mek lists and have more variety.

The spyder thing should be a character. Then you can hide him behind vechiles or units. Right now he is a waste of points for what is an awesome model.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/11/30 00:19:12


 
   
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 Lord Clinto wrote:

That's a very well though out response; how would you suggest GW fix RP?


My suggestion would be something along these lines:
- Models that fail their RP rolls can't try again in subsequent turns. Might sound like a nerf on its own, but doing this allows the ability to be more flexible.
- Keep a tally of the number of models in a unit that die each game turn. If the last model in a given unit is killed, mark the spot where it died.
- At the beginning of each Necron turn, roll a dice for each model that died since the beginning of the previous turn (roll separately for models from different units). For each roll of 5+ the model is returned to its unit with all lost wounds restored. Returning models must be placed in coherency with any existing members of their unit, and more than 3" from any enemy models. If the unit was wiped out, returning models must instead be placed within 6" of their unit's marker, in coherency, and more than 3" from enemy models. If any model cannot be placed for any reason, it counts as having failed its RP roll.
- Necron characters gain this rule (not sure if they should get back all their wounds, though. Maybe d3+1?).
- Instead of their current effect, a Resurrection Orb is activated in the Shooting Phase instead of shooting. Pick a unit within 6" of the bearer. All models in that unit that have died - including ones that previously failed their RP rolls - may immediately make RP rolls (all normal rules for model placement still apply).

it's a bit wordy but the point is that you can still attempt RP rolls even if the squad has been wiped out (but models that fail their rolls no longer get to try again in subsequent turns - though a Resurrection Orb gives them one more chance). Also, Necron characters (with the possible exception of CCBs) would gain the ability to revive in this manner.

It's just a rough idea at the moment, but I think trading potentially-infinite resurrection for the ability to roll RPs even if the squad is wiped out would not only be an improvement but would also make it a lot easier to further tweak the ability. e.g. the current rules simply don't allow for characters to have the ability, whereas my version would work fine for characters.

At the very least, I think this would be a much better jumping-off point for a revised RP ability.

Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"



 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in gb
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Ergghh, all the above sounds complicated. We're playing 40k, not a strategic war game...
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




Maybe my view of rp has been warped by all the hate for it. Normally no one takes warriors, so a real world example of a 20 warrior blob isn't seen very often. Also, they can't damage anything worth while, so they get ignored. If the rest of the necron force is dead it's easy to focus the warrior blob in turn 3+.

With all the damage two weapons out there lychguard and praetorian's don't hang around long enough to make use of it, but again, they are too expensive to see board time.

Perhap the problem is necrons just have so many problems that it's easier to blame what's meant to be iconic about the army.


And, backing away from rp for a sec, the suggestion for anti psychic fortifications for necrons is great! Something for lychguard to, you know, guard would be great! Then the enemy can come to them instead of slogging up the field and dying.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@vipiod - that's a really complex way to achieve exactly my suggestion from the 1st(?) page:

When a rp model is killed, leave it on the table. At the start of the necron player turn roll rp for all models killed last turn. Those that fail are removed. No having to worry about counters or keep track of anything. This also means you can roll for wiped units. Simple. It's a Nerf because you only roll for models that died last turn, but a buff because focus fire doesn't negate the rule.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/30 00:42:07


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Grimgold wrote:
as I said Aggressors are the math hammer champs, and I try to argue in good faith by presenting the best argument possible. But can you share three units you think would do as well? because so far as I'm aware aggressors are something of an aberration, there just isn't another unit in the game that even comes close in terms of wiping out light infantry. A gak load of mortar teams maybe, but those take up a heavy slot apiece in an army that has much better options for heavies. I'm honestly kind of curious what kind of metas you guys play in where a 20 man squad can be mowed down in a single volley. Because I'm ok being wrong, but I'd like to learn something in the process.

You can try Deathwatch Vets with Storm Bolters. The math will vary depending on which ammo you use (though you can just ignore the Dragonfire one because it sucks). It's actually difficult to use anything in the Marine codex for this purpose.

You can try Punishers as well. Those have 40 shots standing still.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 lolman1c wrote:
I must admit, played a competitive necron dude in a GW store once and put all my fire power into 1 of his 2 20 man blobs... I was index Orks but i finally got ine down to like 3 guys and then in 2 turns he was back up to 18 warriors. Again, I've watched games on youtube where because they've missed one or two guys an entire armies worth can get back up again... RP, in my opinion, isn't a problem that needs to be fixed. I think it's pretty powerful as it is... just Necrons players have to rely too much on 2 or 3 units while the rest of their codex kinda sucks. You balance it out enough and they could become OP. As soon as there is more stuff on the table to distract the opponent then RP becomes worth it again.... "Oh no, you killed my elites, well now my warriors are in you face at full strength." Or "Oh no you killed my 20 warriors so i don't get rp. Well now my elites are in your face at full strength" or "Oh no you killed half of each of my units. Now watch as I roll rp and undo everything you did this turn".

With the above, I'd be happy for scarabs to be troops. It's fluffy and means necrons can play more mek lists and have more variety.

The spyder thing should be a character. Then you can hide him behind vechiles or units. Right now he is a waste of points for what is an awesome model.

Ah yes, because we should say a rule is great when the opponent's rolls are below average and the RP rolls afterwards are WAY above average so someone gets a whole army's worth of models back.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/30 01:08:08


CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
One Canoptek Scarab in a Swarm




I'd offer you to look at mortars, as well. Very popular heavy slot (HWT) and for 5 points, you can also put them on the 40point infantry squad. Bring cadian and you're rerolling failed hits with an order.

Chances are if you're running imperium, you have an AM battalion or brigade (CP battery) with these dudes.
   
Made in de
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Somewhere near Hamburg

The problem with rp isnt that it's not working for large warrior blobs. The problem is that it doesnt work for anything else.

Sure you can have working rp for warriors but those have enough problems as is. They are very slow and are armed with fancy bolters. They wont do much apart from waddling about on the battlefield being semi hard to kill and that just doesnt cut it for their point cost.

Also rp is THE signature mechanic of necrons. It shouldnt be something that only one unit benefits from. I'm still a bit disappointed that all the constructs have no equivalent. I may be a little biased tho because I run a pure canoptek army. Basically metal nids

Edit: I'd also like to see mortal wounds for all gauss weapons on 6 to hit. Gauss is another thing that list its glory in 8th

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/30 02:18:17


Astra Milit..*blam* Astra Milliwhat, heretic? 
   
Made in us
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Ute nation

I'll get back to slayer in a sec, but I wanted to talk points for my proposed tesla destructors. Any improvement should have a comisrate increase in points cost, we aren't asking for GW to make us OP (we'll leave that to the Yannari players), and thus we should be willing to pay for better kit. My hunch is that we are currently paying about 10 points for tesla destructors, a little more expensive than a hurricane bolter (if we are paying more we are getting ripped off). It's hard to tell because few codexes have as much baked in stuff as we do. I think this shows that necrons were one of the first codexes out of the bin, but were delayed to coincide with forgebane. Which is the reason our codex is such a back step in quality compared to codexes released around the same time.Our design philosophy has more in common with grey knights than tau of dhrukari.

The suggested TD should be priced a little north of lascannons, they have half the range, but are assault instead of heavy, have less ap and less damage per shot but have a ton more shots. So around 25 points per TD, and since we are equipped with only twins that means about a 50 point hike, but 10ish of that is already baked into the unit. Our vehicles are bit overpriced, so if they drop the base unit by 20 (10 for being overpriced 10 for the baked in cost of the TD), and then make the twin linked tesla destructor cost 50. For a net increase of 30 PPM for annihilation barges, night scythes, and doom scythes.

Necrons - 4k
Dark angels - 2k


"You know what they say about brute force, if it's not working you are not using enough of it" 
   
Made in au
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade





 vipoid wrote:
 Lord Clinto wrote:

That's a very well though out response; how would you suggest GW fix RP?


My suggestion would be something along these lines:
- Models that fail their RP rolls can't try again in subsequent turns. Might sound like a nerf on its own, but doing this allows the ability to be more flexible.
- Keep a tally of the number of models in a unit that die each game turn. If the last model in a given unit is killed, mark the spot where it died.
- At the beginning of each Necron turn, roll a dice for each model that died since the beginning of the previous turn (roll separately for models from different units). For each roll of 5+ the model is returned to its unit with all lost wounds restored. Returning models must be placed in coherency with any existing members of their unit, and more than 3" from any enemy models. If the unit was wiped out, returning models must instead be placed within 6" of their unit's marker, in coherency, and more than 3" from enemy models. If any model cannot be placed for any reason, it counts as having failed its RP roll.
- Necron characters gain this rule (not sure if they should get back all their wounds, though. Maybe d3+1?).
- Instead of their current effect, a Resurrection Orb is activated in the Shooting Phase instead of shooting. Pick a unit within 6" of the bearer. All models in that unit that have died - including ones that previously failed their RP rolls - may immediately make RP rolls (all normal rules for model placement still apply).

it's a bit wordy but the point is that you can still attempt RP rolls even if the squad has been wiped out (but models that fail their rolls no longer get to try again in subsequent turns - though a Resurrection Orb gives them one more chance). Also, Necron characters (with the possible exception of CCBs) would gain the ability to revive in this manner.

It's just a rough idea at the moment, but I think trading potentially-infinite resurrection for the ability to roll RPs even if the squad is wiped out would not only be an improvement but would also make it a lot easier to further tweak the ability. e.g. the current rules simply don't allow for characters to have the ability, whereas my version would work fine for characters.

At the very least, I think this would be a much better jumping-off point for a revised RP ability.


Quite a similar mechanic to 5th Ed necrons - I like it, maybe a bit of refinement but something like that would go a long way.

Current RP is terrible because it is durability that is included in the model cost, which is far too easy to bypass at the moment. Imagine if DR could be ignored the same way? It's a signature rule of the faction, having such a simple way to ignore it is bad design.






"Courage and Honour. I hear you murmur these words in the mist, in their wake I hear your hearts beat harder with false conviction seeking to convince yourselves that a brave death has meaning. There is no courage to be found here my nephews, no honour to be had. Your souls will join the trillion others in the mist shrieking uselessly to eternity, weeping for the empire you could not save.

To the unfaithful, I bring holy plagues ripe with enlightenment. To the devout, I bring the blessing of immortality through the kiss of sacred rot. And to you, new-born sons of Gulliman, to you flesh crafted puppets of a failing Imperium I bring the holiest gift of war.... Silence."
- Mortarion, The Death Lord, Daemon Primarch of Nurgle


5600 | 2800 | 850 | 4000 | 3300 | 550

 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




The Tesla Destructor isn’t a Lascannon equivalent; it isn’t set up to carve big chunks off heavy tanks. It’s set up to take smaller chunks off medium targets, which makes it an Autocannon equivalent. Therefore, you should be measuring it against an Autocannon, not a Lascannon.

If you make the TD 2Dmg and keep it at AP- it ends up comparing nicely to a twin Autocannon. Against a target with a 4+ save it does exactly the same damage as a twin Autocannon. The Autocannon does better against targets with better saves, but the TD does better against targets with worse saves or Invuls. The Autocannon has longer range but the TD is more mobile. A twin TD is then essentially a quad Autocannon, which makes the Annihilation Barge a reasonable equivalent to a Rifleman Dreadnought. Just making Tesla Destructors 2Dmg is a great solution.

We really need our basic troops to do more work against vehicles again. A rending-style rule is a good idea, but for the love of God, the God-Emperor, the C’Tan, the Chaos Gods, Gork, Mork, the Eldar Pantheon and the Greater Good, no more f***ing Mortal Wounds. They’re an anti-fun and unbalanceable mechanic that are already grotesquely over-prevalent in this game. +1 Damage (and AP?) on 6s to Wound with Gauss weapons sounds much more fun, but I wonder if it’d actually be strong enough to made a difference.
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut




Honestly I was shocked the Destructor didn't get D2. It's like the perfect weapon for that.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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Dive-Bombin' Fighta-Bomba Pilot





They could even make it so gauss gets +1 to wound against vehicles, or reroll failed to wound rolls against vehicles if you want something more than AP or extra damage.

My milkshakes bring all the boys to the yard and they're like, hurr darry darr.


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 Grimgold wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, in my experience warriors are usually the units that benefit the most from RP, as they have the numbers to ensure that RP actually works, they actually have a support for their RP, and it takes a surprising amount of effort to remove one squad.

The problem though is that warrior's offensive capabilities are lackluster, so a savvy opponent would go after weaker units that can actually deal damage before dealing with warriors.

You know what would be hilarious? If there was a grot shields equivalent for warriors. You'll be shooting those warriors whether you want to or not


Even immortals in cover are a PITA to get rid of in a single volley,

dark reapers shooting star swarm missiles
2/3 * 2/3 * 1/2 * 2 = .44 damage per reaper

That means it takes 10/.44 = 22 dark reapers to get them in a round, which is a commitment of 748 points of dark reapers

For aggressors the story is worse
2/3 * 1/2 * 1/6 * 9.5 = .53 damage per aggressor

So it would take 10/.53 = 19 aggressors to do the job, which is a commitment of 703 points.

Which means it's possible to one shot our infantry, but it's not a good use of resources, and therefore highly unlikely to happen in actual play. If we get to roll RP even once it's better than DR, and if we get to roll it more than once it is way better than DR.

*edit* Also warriors are a great unit for capping midfield objectives, they have obsec, large numbers, and are a royal pain to get rid of. At 240 points they are a good investment to get hold more every round.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Arachnofiend wrote:
The last thing Necrons need is even more reliance on AP in a game where most of the significant threats have an invuln...


Care to cite any examples? Because we would be making this change to let necrons take on heavy vehicles, which do not have typically have an invul save. Knights have an invul save, but short of rotate ion shields on their warlord, -1 ap would still put us at or below their invul save, meaning their invul save wouldn't help them.


Guys, I think you are using the wrong weapon in this scenario. Why you haven't consider Tzeentch Flamer?

9 model strong units, 9D6 autohit at 12", Str5 VS T4 and plus 1 to wound when buffed simply by a Herald backing them up, AP-1. Math yields 13.3 Immortal dead. I don't remember the exact points of those Flamers, but what I can recall is they may not be over 30pts, so that is <270pts units wipe a 170pts Immortals. Easy kill!!!

How anout Kraken Genestealers? 240pts for 20 strong unit. 80 attacks, hit on 3s, wound on 4s, AP-1 minimum. So even not count the rending on 6s. It is already average 13.3 Immortal dead. Easy Kill!!!!

How about Tzaangors? 210pts for a 30 strong unit, 60 attacks, hit on 3s wound on 4s, AP-1, so they have only 4+ save now, yields exact 10 dead Immortals. Easy Kill!!!!
   
Made in us
Aspirant Tech-Adept






On the record guys, there are things that are as bad as vehicles but aren't vehicles that necrons need to deal with. Greater daemons, monstrous tyranids, eldar avatars, Guilleman, daemon primarchs, etc, and many of these have ++ saves.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/30 06:25:43


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Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Interestingly, a good candidate for killing Immortals... is Immortals.

14 Mephrit Immortals (238pts) kill 10 Immortals in rapid fire range in one go.

My contestant for crappiest unit to kill 10 Immortals in one go: 10 Vanguard Veterans with Lightning Claws at 280pts. Kills 10 Immortals with the Sergeant’s bonus attack as spare.
   
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Chalice-Wielding Sanguinary High Priest






Germany

Dont waste your time on thinking how to fix necrons, the only thing that (hopefully) will happen are point drops.
   
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Been Around the Block




 Grimgold wrote:
I wanted to talk points for my proposed tesla destructors. Any improvement should have a comisrate increase in points cost, we aren't asking for GW to make us OP (we'll leave that to the Yannari players), and thus we should be willing to pay for better kit. My hunch is that we are currently paying about 10 points for tesla destructors, a little more expensive than a hurricane bolter (if we are paying more we are getting ripped off).


Well isn't it lucky then that annihilation barges are already incredibly overcosted. I admit that a large part of there problem is the troop tax covers most of their current targets, so they are surplus to demand, but even if that wasn't the case they are still to costly to consider.

With an extra damage and an ap or two there would still be an argument for a point decrease. Leaving them as is is the best bet. I guess changing the base cost and weapon cost so they add up the same is an option, but kinda pointless since it's only scythes that share the weapon and they are basically in the same boat (incredibly overcosted).

The changes from CA should make all lists mid tear - even spam armies of destroyers (our best unit) aren't really mid tear (sure they get some wins, but not in the true competitive scene). Three vault lists either win big or loose big, which doesn't make them as good as some think. (Basically what I'm saying is necrons don't need any point increases!)
   
 
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