DO you think Grey Knights will be fixed?

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**Daedalus81**

Spoiler:

the_scotsman wrote:

With the GK psychic power list being what it is, their basic troop psykers really are just mortal wounds.

Like, I play Tsons as well, and I definitely don't htink of the aspiring sorcs as mortal wound generators, but therin lies the problem of GK: Your three decent powers really need to be used by your important characters.

Remember, the GK power list is:

-Purge Soul. Worse than Smite, given that (IIRC) imperium does not offer any kind of way to stack negative LD modifiers like Eldar Soup can.

-Gate of Infinity. Your first couple turns, you really must use this on your critical characters. This is Proooobably what I'd stick on the strikes, just to give them the option for added flexibility if I wasn't doing anything else with this critical power in a turn.

-Hammerhand. A walking 5-man strike squad is never going to use this, because they're never going to get near melee and even if they did...it'd be more useful to throw it on at least a unit of interceptors.

-Sanctuary. Maybe on one squad? Feels like I'm 100% always using this with my GMNDK though.

-Astral Aim. I still don't really get the point of this unless I'm a Dreadnought with las and missile.Maybe a contemptor. Do GK get psychic contemptors?

-Vortex. Yeah, I'd probably throw this on a strike squad, because you're gaining more vs a babysmite, but still i'd like it better on a model with some mobility so I could line up those big mortal wound kabooms.

And that is it. There's no Discipline of Change to give your mini-squads bonus powers, and no Hereticus Discipline to ensure that your characters and your squads aren't casting dupes. The second you cast one of these on any unit in your army, no other unit is using it that turn, and something like 1/2 of them I would classify as "critical to be using on your hard-hitting characters." A turn where I don't use Sanctuary, Hammerhand and Gate on one of my dreadknight masters, draigo, or interceptor squads is basically a turn I didn't use those squads efficiently. That leaves astral aim (veeeery weird to be using that on some storm bolter shmoes, most likely something you'd use on a dreadnought or dreadknight) and the quasi-smite powers...which is still reducing your strikes to just a couple mortal wounds.

Oh for sure - Strikes are stuck smiting, but it's a fair bit more reliable than Rubrics - especially with perils. Rubrics I might do Firestorm, 5++, or heal so there's more flexibility there.

I'm totally onboard with them getting more spells and fixing marine spells. I'd love to see marines want librarians again.

**Reemule**

I've always felt that GK needs to evolve their schtick in the game with the Demons.

Like if GK's are fighting a none Chaos force, then they gain the ability to declare 1 unit of the enemy force as suspected demon pawns and all anti demon ability powers work as if that unit had the keyword Demon for this game.

It would help them a bit. And be fairly fluffy in giving an excuse on why they were there in the first place.

**Slayer-Fan123**

the_scotsman wrote:
Karol wrote:
Basically:

Battalion

Loyal 32

Battalion:

GMDK with DK teleporter, heavy psycannon
Draigo with Gate
3x5 Strikes with 1 Incinerator each
Brohood ancient with refining flame
2x Stormravens with multi-meltas, lascannons, hurricane bolters
2x7 interceptors with falchions

How is this list better then taking same stormravens, some scouts, Gulliman and sternguard? Does the extra melee from interceptor falchions balance out the lack of non CP costed special ammo? Also wouldn't it suffer a lot from smash hammer captin builds. It does not have the bodies to protect the storm ravens from getting charged turn 2. And losing them is a big blow if they transport anything.

I like Storm Bolters a whole lot better than I like (Sternguard) special bolters. They are mathematically equivalent *IF* both AP on the Special Bolters is used, and there is no situation where the Storm Bolters become inefficient compared to the Special Bolters. Plus, those Scouts you're basically having to take on top of the Sternguard, while the Strikes are your troops. I already have my screen in the loyal 32, I don't think I really need a second screen. All theyre doing is stopping those aforementioned smashcaptains from turn 1 charging my ass and killing me.

Guilliman I don't think brings a lot to a stormraven list. If you recall, in the heyday of stormravens when Guilliman was even cheaper than he is now, people often ran those with the Blood angel chapter master with the jump pack because he could keep up with the planes.

What GK bring to the table vs the rest of the marine stable is mortal wounds and universal storm bolter access on troops. The latter, deathwatch definitely do better, but don't bring the mortal wounds. So I figure if you want a GK list that doesn't feel like what other marines can do but worse, you make sure you get the maximum number of storm bolters down on the table turn 2 and start hammering away, then grind down the elite troops with mortal wounds.

Or you bring a massive paladin blob. That sounds kind of fun.

Sternguard get access to all Storm Bolters...

**the_scotsman**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Karol wrote:
Basically:

Battalion

Loyal 32

Battalion:

GMDK with DK teleporter, heavy psycannon
Draigo with Gate
3x5 Strikes with 1 Incinerator each
Brohood ancient with refining flame
2x Stormravens with multi-meltas, lascannons, hurricane bolters
2x7 interceptors with falchions

How is this list better then taking same stormravens, some scouts, Gulliman and sternguard? Does the extra melee from interceptor falchions balance out the lack of non CP costed special ammo? Also wouldn't it suffer a lot from smash hammer captin builds. It does not have the bodies to protect the storm ravens from getting charged turn 2. And losing them is a big blow if they transport anything.

I like Storm Bolters a whole lot better than I like (Sternguard) special bolters. They are mathematically equivalent *IF* both AP on the Special Bolters is used, and there is no situation where the Storm Bolters become inefficient compared to the Special Bolters. Plus, those Scouts you're basically having to take on top of the Sternguard, while the Strikes are your troops. I already have my screen in the loyal 32, I don't think I really need a second screen. All theyre doing is stopping those aforementioned smashcaptains from turn 1 charging my ass and killing me.

Guilliman I don't think brings a lot to a stormraven list. If you recall, in the heyday of stormravens when Guilliman was even cheaper than he is now, people often ran those with the Blood angel chapter master with the jump pack because he could keep up with the planes.

What GK bring to the table vs the rest of the marine stable is mortal wounds and universal storm bolter access on troops. The latter, deathwatch definitely do better, but don't bring the mortal wounds. So I figure if you want a GK list that doesn't feel like what other marines can do but worse, you make sure you get the maximum number of storm bolters down on the table turn 2 and start hammering away, then grind down the elite troops with mortal wounds.

Or you bring a massive paladin blob. That sounds kind of fun.

Sternguard get access to all Storm Bolters...

Sure, but they're not special ammo storm bolters. Karol was asking how GK can compare to special ammo, I assume meaning the special ammo boltguns that the sternguard come with.

If you're talking about "what about sternguard with storm bolters" well then I guess I'd say that for every strike you have to buy a sternguard AND a scout to get the same CPs. Even if you ignore their mortal wound output and their force weapons, Strikes pay 6pts for generating CPs and obsec.

I think it's tough to justify them vs Deathwatch, but vs sternguard I can see the benefit of strikes.

**Daedalus81**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Sternguard get access to all Storm Bolters...

And they're probably the best foil to analyze strikes.

A stern with SIB or SB is 16 points.
A strike with SB and Falchions is 21.

Both of these units shoot the same. Both die the same. Both have 2 attacks.

In this scenario (also disregarding cost) Sterngaurd have no benefits over Strikes. So, ultimately we've paid 5 points for a obsec, baby smite and a more effective melee. For some they wouldn't wish to pay that, because they don't intend to melee and they don't find smite useful and that's totally legitimate. I just can't say that it isn't a fair cost for those abilities or that they aren't useful.

The only way to view GK is to take those positives and find a way to utilize them, because this is what GK is designed to do.. And after all deny +1 from any model in your army is quite a damper on armies that rely on spells like Doom.

**Karol**

Daedalus81 wrote:

Smites and maneuverability, I suppose.

A storm bolter is mathematically equivalent to a gun with half the shots, but with AP2. Bobby gets them an edge on wounding, but at a cost.

2 * .666 * .5 * .333 = .222
1 * .666 * .5 * .666 = .222

As for Smash Captains - depends on the list and how you want to tackle it. You can fling the ravens out to the side and drag the smash captain out far enough to get hit by a run and gun by the other raven.

Thanks, very informative and helpful.

I think it's tough to justify them vs Deathwatch, but vs sternguard I can see the benefit of strikes.

DW vets make strikes look sad. Am not sure but their SB+SS dudes cost around 20pts, and don't have to spend CP to get special ammo, and their ammo is much better then then blessed ammo that costs 2CP to use. Plus they have cool gimmiks like puting a termintor to tank shots in to the unit. Not game breaking, maybe not even good, but I would love to have paladins joining termintor or strike squads.

Not saying the Champion isn't good. I find him hilarious with Hammerhands + Sword Stance for +2 to wound and using GK's 1CP "Even in Death" to get 8 attacks when killed.

Not saying that he can't do it, but in general, and I maybe doing stuff wrong. I would rather use it on something beefy like a NDK chaptermaster or draigo. They swing harder. What about running multiple apothecaries with hammers? I know some people tried that at some time. maybe the meta shifted enough for them to be an ok option.

**Loafing**

Karol wrote:

Not saying that he can't do it, but in general, and I maybe doing stuff wrong. I would rather use it on something beefy like a NDK chaptermaster or draigo.

You can use the stratagem multiple times in a game (just once a turn). But yes. If you lose a GMNDK / Dragio and a Champion in the same turn you'd Even in Death your heavier hitter.

**the_scotsman**

Yeah if I were running GK right now I would be very strongly considering just running them as Deathwatch veterans with Storm bolters and power swords.

Even if it's mechanically inferior to SB/SS vets, I'd say you'd almost always be getting better mileage out of them than running them as GK. Plus, other than the dreadknight I think Deathwatch has access to the whole of the GK roster, or at least a proxy for every unit.

In 7th edition for a long time my Dark Eldar were Corsairs because, similarly, they were models with similar playstyles and models, but just better game mechanics.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
GK have SOME tricks that Deathwatch don't have (First to the Fray is quite nice especially combined with the double-your-auras stratagem, heed the prognosticars is really nice on a storm shield dude, Sancuary, Hammerhand, and GOI Are all great psychic powers and the sanctic discipline in general is straight better than the Librarius discipline in every way) but the basic mechanics of deathwatch are just better, simple as that. SIA is better than every squad getting a smite. Not having 6ppm baked into every model is important. Storm shields in every squad is nice. Mixed squads with terminators are excellent.

**Loafing**

the_scotsman wrote:

heed the prognosticars is really nice on a storm shield dude

You mean on Draigo. Draigo is the only GK with a Storm Shield.

**Karol**

That is something I don't understand. I have read a pdf of a GK codex, no idea from which edition, and termintor in it could either have nemezis weapons and storm bolters or thunder hammers and stormshields. Why would GW remove the option from the codex, when both the models for it and unit entry exist.

Draigos stormshield isn't even some super rare relic one, it is a plain simple stormshield with no special rules or anything that would make it one of the kind.

**Bharring**

In part because GK had a power to give them +1 to their Invuln - which would mean a 2++. And 2++s were supposed to be super rare/hard to get.

(Feel free to note the past tense in that statement...)

**Daedalus81**

Bharring wrote:
In part because GK had a power to give them +1 to their Invuln - which would mean a 2++. And 2++s were supposed to be super rare/hard to get.

(Feel free to note the past tense in that statement...)

Well, that's easy enough to avoid with a 3++ restriction. It's just that the kit has no storm shields.

**the_scotsman**

Loafing wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:

heed the prognosticars is really nice on a storm shield dude

You mean on Draigo. Draigo is the only GK with a Storm Shield.

Sure.

I'm changing my opinion on Best Worst Mostly GK list - the planes are a trap, screw the planes. GK have deep strike for 1cp unlimited according to the 1d4chan tactics article, if that's the case they should absolutely just be doing it up deathwatch style.

Loyal 32 for screen+ command points

2x GMNDKs with heavy psycannons and swords
Kaldor Drago

3x 10-man strike squads with 2 psilencers and falchions.

2x venerable dreadnoughts with twin las+missile launcher
1 squad of 3 hammer paladins

if the GMNDKs start on the ground everything else can deep strike, you basically just have to make sure that the warlord GMNDK stays alive to deliver the First to the Fray bubble to everybody as they deep strike in, solidly doubling their odds to be in combat.

I think this is finally a setup where you can't just say "eh, you could do that but 100% better with Insert Other Marines Here". It's basically the current deathwatch shtick trading defense for offense, since the GKs will be semi-reliably charging with anti elite weaponry while the deathwatch basically just have pillowfists. The extra damage from the smite and psilencers makes up for the extra 1/6 chance to wound vs chaff the DW get with their SIA. The big downside is, obviously, 3++ vs just 3+.

**Daedalus81**

You can teleport dreadnoughts, too.

Loyal 32
Draigo
GMDK
3x5 Strikes
3 Dreads
3 Ven dreads

A couple can be las/missle and astral aim themselves from out of LOS rotating out when the other becomes too damaged.

The rest are in their face turn 2 - heavy plasma cannon and fist is 46 plus 65 or 85. Everything Is psychic so you don't have to worry about bringing support. If you could somehow fit in a couple tech priests it would be hard to deal with.

**the_scotsman**

Daedalus81 wrote:
You can teleport dreadnoughts, too.

Loyal 32
Draigo
GMDK
3x5 Strikes
3 Dreads
3 Ven dreads

A couple can be las/missle and astral aim themselves from out of LOS rotating out when the other becomes too damaged.

The rest are in their face turn 2 - heavy plasma cannon and fist is 46 plus 65 or 85. Everything Is psychic do you don't have to worry about bringing support. If you could somehow fit in a couple tech priests it would be hard to deal with.

Well, you could, but you can only teleport 1/2 of your PL. So I chose to keep my dreadnoughts on the ground to contibute to on-the-ground PL, where I figured I could just deploy them out of LOS if I wanted to astral aim one. The other I figure I'd sanctuary one of the GMNDKs so I can make sure both dreadknights have GOI or Hammerhand depending on what they need to do. With my setup, you have to have the GMNDKs on the ground as well to teleport everything else, so they want to both be at a 3++ turn 1.

**Daedalus81**

It would be Draigo plus 3 Vens and 1 Dread for 47, I think. The other 2 dreads are on table. Techmarines would hoof it or maybe grab a rhino with some Strikes.

It would be fun even if not bleeding edge competitive.

**Karol**

I think this is finally a setup where you can't just say "eh, you could do that but 100% better with Insert Other Marines Here". It's basically the current deathwatch shtick trading defense for offense, since the GKs will be semi-reliably charging with anti elite weaponry while the deathwatch basically just have pillowfists. The extra damage from the smite and psilencers makes up for the extra 1/6 chance to wound vs chaff the DW get with their SIA. T

Just remember that your casting baby smite, and you can't astral aim multiple dreads, but at the same time you can't take it just on one dread, because your opponent will just kill it first. How do you plan to get the charges off by the way? GK have no push mechanic, so you would be charging from 9"+ on 2d6.That is a lot above the averge, am not sure if even with the CP re-roll it comes down to 50%.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Daedalus81 wrote:
Bharring wrote:
In part because GK had a power to give them +1 to their Invuln - which would mean a 2++. And 2++s were supposed to be super rare/hard to get.

(Feel free to note the past tense in that statement...)

Well, that's easy enough to avoid with a 3++ restriction. It's just that the kit has no storm shields.

But there is a box of termintors with Thunder hammers and stormshields. I have seen it. Or did it come out only recantly?

**Reemule**

I thought the game was amended that no more than 1/2 army points could be Ported in, and 1/2 needs to start on the table.

**Daedalus81**

Derp read post wrong.

**Flamephoenix182**

Reemule wrote:
I thought the game was amended that no more than 1/2 army points could be Ported in, and 1/2 needs to start on the table.

You are right, the last FAQ changed it from PL to point cost for the deepstrike limits

**the_scotsman**

Daedalus81 wrote:
Reemule wrote:
I thought the game was amended that no more than 1/2 army points could be Ported in, and 1/2 needs to start on the table.

Easy enough to work with. Scotsman's list has 30 PL is just two GMDKs and 2 dreads. The loyal 32 is another 13. Then Draigo is 12 (technically shouldn't be any more), 3x10 strikes is 42, and the paladins are 10. So, one 10 man stays on for 59 and the rest is 50

I worked this out on Battlescribe so if there are any errors I apologize.

Loyal 32 = 13pl
2x Vendreads = 18pl
2x GMNDKs = 28pl
Kaldor = 12pl

71pl on the table

3x strike squads = 42pl
3x paladins = 10pl

52pl in deep strike.

Draigo might as well be on the board since he can GOI turn 2, so turn 1 he can just stand around and give a reroll to the dreads or something.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:
I think this is finally a setup where you can't just say "eh, you could do that but 100% better with Insert Other Marines Here". It's basically the current deathwatch shtick trading defense for offense, since the GKs will be semi-reliably charging with anti elite weaponry while the deathwatch basically just have pillowfists. The extra damage from the smite and psilencers makes up for the extra 1/6 chance to wound vs chaff the DW get with their SIA. T

Just remember that your casting baby smite, and you can't astral aim multiple dreads, but at the same time you can't take it just on one dread, because your opponent will just kill it first. How do you plan to get the charges off by the way? GK have no push mechanic, so you would be charging from 9"+ on 2d6.That is a lot above the averge, am not sure if even with the CP re-roll it comes down to 50%.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Daedalus81 wrote:
Bharring wrote:
In part because GK had a power to give them +1 to their Invuln - which would mean a 2++. And 2++s were supposed to be super rare/hard to get.

(Feel free to note the past tense in that statement...)

Well, that's easy enough to avoid with a 3++ restriction. It's just that the kit has no storm shields.

But there is a box of termintors with Thunder hammers and stormshields. I have seen it. Or did it come out only recantly?

My opponent is going to have a hard time killing the one dreadnought with astral aim comparatively, because he's going to be standing as out of LOS as I can possibly make him.

That being kind of the point of astral aim.

This list does present tank statline models to the enemy, which is a drawback in a knight-killing meta, but they are at least tanks with either invuln saves or fairly high defenses for the points (vendreads are actually pretty tough for the points given how easy it is for them to gain cover, small profile and long range meaning you can just start them behind a wall and you can usually fit them into buildings)

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, GK do have a charge bonus in First to the Fray, which gives you a basic reroll for all units within 6" of the warlord. Since I played Orks pre-codex, I can tell you that's a 58% chance to get into melee combat - very much not bad, as I will ideally have 3 units of strikes, 1 unit of paladins, draigo, and two dreadknights trying to make that charge turn 2 after clearing 40 GEQ worth of chaff with their storm bolters.

**Leo_the_Rat**

The chance that you roll a 9 or higher on 2d6 is 27.78%. The chance that you roll a 9 or higher on your second roll is 27.78%. Granted that you get 2 rolls but it means that the odds of a successful charge at 9" is around 50/50. If the warlord trait allowed you to roll 1 or both dice then your chance of success would be much better than what is offered now.

**the_scotsman**

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
The chance that you roll a 9 or higher on 2d6 is 27.78%. The chance that you roll a 9 or higher on your second roll is 27.78%. Granted that you get 2 rolls but it means that the odds of a successful charge at 9" is around 50/50. If the warlord trait allowed you to roll 1 or both dice then your chance of success would be much better than what is offered now.

That isn't exactly how it works - compound probability isn't additive, so the odds of getting in with just a straight 2-dice reroll are about 45%. However, if you add in the possibility of rerolling 1 die with a CP instead, it does go up to around 58%. But, the basic fact of the matter is, if you can get a charge reroll, your charges from deep strike go from "eh, might as well try, it'll probably fail" to "more likely than not to succeed" and for me its pretty much a litmus test of whether I will ever take a melee deep striking unit at all.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Daedalus81 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Sternguard get access to all Storm Bolters...

And they're probably the best foil to analyze strikes.

A stern with SIB or SB is 16 points.
A strike with SB and Falchions is 21.

Both of these units shoot the same. Both die the same. Both have 2 attacks.

In this scenario (also disregarding cost) Sterngaurd have no benefits over Strikes. So, ultimately we've paid 5 points for a obsec, baby smite and a more effective melee. For some they wouldn't wish to pay that, because they don't intend to melee and they don't find smite useful and that's totally legitimate. I just can't say that it isn't a fair cost for those abilities or that they aren't useful.

The only way to view GK is to take those positives and find a way to utilize them, because this is what GK is designed to do.. And after all deny +1 from any model in your army is quite a damper on armies that rely on spells like Doom.

You can't disregard cost just because you want to, though. Points DO add up. The Strike Squad is, at minimum, 105 points. That's 5 models, and that's it. Sternguard will be able to get different upgrades at that point as the minimum cost for them is a mere 80 points. You can get two Plasma Guns or Combi-Plasmas, which goes a long way. You can pick up a couple of Heavy Bolters or just a Grav Cannon. The better melee is worth some points, but we can't pretend the Smite is good for anything, nor does Objective Secured actually matter. When it comes to troops for Marines, they use the Scout tax. The minimum Battalion for GK is far above the regular Marine one.

Don't forget how silly the GK bonus is for a pure detachment. Sternguard can be Raven Guard, making them more valuable alone. Ultramarines aren't terrible either for a shooting unit.

You can even look at Company Vets for a better comparison if you want. 3 attacks instead, which is nice. In fact, Sternguard are strictly worse than them and the only benefit to them is being able to take Heavy Weapons and being in a larger squad (sound like a familiar justification for Conscripts?)

**Daedalus81**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

You can't disregard cost just because you want to, though. Points DO add up. The Strike Squad is, at minimum, 105 points. That's 5 models, and that's it. Sternguard will be able to get different upgrades at that point as the minimum cost for them is a mere 80 points. You can get two Plasma Guns or Combi-Plasmas, which goes a long way. You can pick up a couple of Heavy Bolters or just a Grav Cannon. The better melee is worth some points, but we can't pretend the Smite is good for anything, nor does Objective Secured actually matter. When it comes to troops for Marines, they use the Scout tax. The minimum Battalion for GK is far above the regular Marine one.

Don't forget how silly the GK bonus is for a pure detachment. Sternguard can be Raven Guard, making them more valuable alone. Ultramarines aren't terrible either for a shooting unit.

You can even look at Company Vets for a better comparison if you want. 3 attacks instead, which is nice. In fact, Sternguard are strictly worse than them and the only benefit to them is being able to take Heavy Weapons and being in a larger squad (sound like a familiar justification for Conscripts?)

I'm not trying to ignore costs. I just wanted to isolate the pros and cons of such units in a way that lets us determine how we need to use them.

In terms of cost there are breakpoints where, as you demonstrate, people effectively say, "Why don't I just take X?".

A Stern with SB is 16 points. Would people pay 3 points for obsec, a force weapon, and a baby smite? I'd wager they would more often than not. If they were only 2 points they would become "Why would I take Stern when I can take Strikes?". At least I wager they would.

If 3 points is our magic anchor then that makes a squad of 5 Strikes 10 points more than we would otherwise pay. While we would always like things cheaper should 10 points really dissuade someone from using a unit in their chosen army?

Now this is all considering falchions, which means all the other stock force weapons must be separated from base and come down in cost.

**Karol**

A Stern with SB is 16 points. Would people pay 3 points for obsec, a force weapon, and a baby smite? I'd wager they would more often than not. If they were only 2 points they would become "Why would I take Stern when I can take Strikes?". At least I wager they would.

I don't know man, for 20pts they can get an objective secure DW veteran with a stormbolter and a shield, and just ally in the dreads. And they would get the realy good DW ammo.

**Daedalus81**

Karol wrote:
A Stern with SB is 16 points. Would people pay 3 points for obsec, a force weapon, and a baby smite? I'd wager they would more often than not. If they were only 2 points they would become "Why would I take Stern when I can take Strikes?". At least I wager they would.

I don't know man, for 20pts they can get an objective secure DW veteran with a stormbolter and a shield, and just ally in the dreads. And they would get the realy good DW ammo.

Yes, but you're switching armies again and oddly enough those DW vets gain no benefits vs GK.

**Quickjager**

Of course people would pay 3 extra point for that because they would have chapter tactics and strats that could actually leverage most of those. Also the Stern get a point of AP on their weapon.

A GK strike squad that was 19 points per model, with a point of AP native to their SB AND had two attacks base? WITH their choice of SM chapter tactics? That would be amazing.

Imagine being able to fallback with a squad of GKSS after a round of melee and then shoot 4 stormbolter shots per model into at BS4. WHILE being +1 ld for Purge Soul? Purgation Squads would be so much useful...

Imagine Black Templar charge rerolls...

Ravenguard -1 to hit. Even the Salamander artisan weapons for that hammer in a squad, or imagine even the Crimson Fist chapter tactic so that GK could actually be ANTI HORDE. 3 man Pally squads could actually clean up squads consistently.

**Karol**

Daedalus81 wrote:
Karol wrote:
A Stern with SB is 16 points. Would people pay 3 points for obsec, a force weapon, and a baby smite? I'd wager they would more often than not. If they were only 2 points they would become "Why would I take Stern when I can take Strikes?". At least I wager they would.

I don't know man, for 20pts they can get an objective secure DW veteran with a stormbolter and a shield, and just ally in the dreads. And they would get the realy good DW ammo.

Yes, but you're switching armies again and oddly enough those DW vets gain no benefits vs GK.

I don't think the armies matter. Playstyles do. If there are two or three armies that can run SB units and dreads, then they each have to have something powerful in their favour to be a valid way to play. Those don't have to be the same things, in fact it is way better, if the things are different. Am just not sure that baby smite+melee weapons balance stuff like Sternguard+Gulliman, or SB+SS dudes. Maybe they do, I don't know. But what I feel isn't really that important. If those kind of builds were good people would be running them. And while the G-man and DW armies aren't really winning tournaments, they are at least run. GK are not run.