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 casvalremdeikun wrote:
especially since you need to bring the full 10 Marines to use him.

I don't think that's the case...

 Crimson wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
especially since you need to bring the full 10 Marines to use him.

I don't think that's the case...

Goddamnit, I just re-read it and I see how it can be done. Perfect. Still, 142 pts minimum is a bit rich for a Troop Squad.

My plan was to have several six man squads with the medic, though with these prices...

 Crimson wrote:
My plan was to have several six man squads with the medic, though with these prices...

Likewise, I was going to replace three Intercessor Squads with three Infiltrator Squads. But a squad of 6 including the medic isn't that much further from two squads of Intercessors. I am scrapping that plan for the time being, likely not until the full box comes out. Hopefully a box of ten comes with the parts to make multiple Sergeants and Helix Adepts, that way I can make three squads of six out of one box plus the Shadowspear ones.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
BTW for the chaos side, at least the points leaks were confirmed in a Youtube video reviewing the mini-dex.

115 point Obliterators...

The Loyalist numbers were as well. It sucks that the Infiltrators are so expensive.

Care to give a recap to those of us failing our search-fu skill check?

The Newman wrote:

Care to give a recap to those of us failing our search-fu skill check?

CSM 13
GP 70
MoP 90
Oblit 115
Venom 130

Autocannon 10
Plasmas Gun 11
Plasma Pistol 5


Captain in Phobos 110
Eliminator 18
Infiltrator 22
Helix Adept 32
Librarian in Phobos 100
Lt in Phobos 80
Suppressor 18

Accelerator Cannon 15
Bolt Sniper 3

Thanks Crimson.

So an armed Eliminator is cheaper than an Infiltrator? What kind of [expletive] sense does that make?

33 points for a Suppressor ... that's cheaper than either variety of Inceptor! That doesn't make any [expletive] sense either.

I wouldn't field a half-medic for anything less than a full squad. His extra cost of adding him to 5-man squads is going to add up fast, and he's not going to be getting as much value.

And since there aren't really buffs I'm thinking of targeting Infiltratoirs will, I see no reason to bring full squads, so the Helix Adept will probably be extra,

The Newman wrote:
Thanks Crimson.

So an armed Eliminator is cheaper than an Infiltrator? What kind of [expletive] sense does that make?

33 points for a Suppressor ... that's cheaper than either variety of Inceptor! That doesn't make any [expletive] sense either.

Probably make as much sense as a single obliterator costing more then a shoty dreadnought.

Karol wrote:

The Newman wrote:
Thanks Crimson.

So an armed Eliminator is cheaper than an Infiltrator? What kind of [expletive] sense does that make?

33 points for a Suppressor ... that's cheaper than either variety of Inceptor! That doesn't make any [expletive] sense either.

Probably make as much sense as a single obliterator costing more then a shoty dreadnought.

Now now, i got constantly told the new obliterators are better

The rules maybe better, but I don't think that at 115 they are that good.

All the presumed chaos traits.

Warlord traits CSM revealed, Any PSYKER warlord can take them(daemon prince, master of possession or sorcerer on daemon mount):

Devourer of magic (make 1 additional DtW, every successful deny regen 1W on psycher)

Warp lord (reroll all 1s for psychic tests)

Arch-Sorcerer (Your warlord knows one additional power)

Reader of Fate (Once per battle, reroll a failed psychic test or Deny the Witch. In addition, every time you successfully manifest a psychic powers, you gain 1 CP)
EDIT: apparently this is only on a 6

Infernal Gaze (Smite at 24" instead of 18")

Daemon-linked Power (Add 1 to WL Strength trait. Reroll damage rolls for Force weapons, including relics)

Not Online!!! wrote:

Karol wrote:

The Newman wrote:
Thanks Crimson.

So an armed Eliminator is cheaper than an Infiltrator? What kind of [expletive] sense does that make?

33 points for a Suppressor ... that's cheaper than either variety of Inceptor! That doesn't make any [expletive] sense either.

Probably make as much sense as a single obliterator costing more then a shoty dreadnought.

Now now, i got constantly told the new obliterators are better

They look like they're better than the old ones for specific unit configurations.

I re-made the graphs from before at 115 points...



They're showing relative difference compared to old obliterators. Values greater than 1 represent a net improvement, values less than 1 represent a net nerf. The value is calculated by applying a weighted average to the change in cost, amalgamated ranged firepower, and amalgamated resiliency. [Since their melee power and movement are either irrelevant or unchanged, they're weighted as "0", or irrelevant]. I assigned the percent change in ranged firepower and reiliency with nested weighted averages; though firepower basically boils down to the change in shot count since the other values are unchanged.

If you disagree with the weights, rest assured that for almost all weight combinations, 3 New Oblitz represents a net cost-firepower efficiency improvement over 6 Old Oblitz. However, 2 is a massive nerf for all weights, since they're more expensive for the same power.

The driving factor in this improvement at 3 Obliterators is Endless Cacophony and other target-squad buffs. Your buffs are now effectively targeting another half-squad of Old Obliterators through the addition of the extra New Obliterator.

The uptrail at the high values is because the rule of 3 stops the Old Obliterators short of achieving those levels, so as long as shooting power is considering a value, it uptrails after the point where you couldn't have any more Obliterators. The extra cost drops it down if you increase the importance of cost, though.

The driving factor in this improvement at 3 Obliterators is Endless Cacophony and other target-squad buffs. Your buffs are now effectively targeting another half-squad of Old Obliterators through the addition of the extra New Obliterator.

Except when they're not, like maybe when you're playing into GSC/Aeldari.

This is why factoring stratagems into the numbers is completely misrepresenting their efficiency.

If your Oblits are garbage when you play Aeldari/GSC because they don't get propped up by stratagems, then you can't put them into a list. It's just bad list-building.

If you don't expect to ever face either of those factions, then sure, you can make a case for assumed stratagem success, but given both factions apparent popularity, it's completely disingenuous to claim they're 'better'.

edit: Furthermore, unless I'm misunderstanding something, relative efficiency vs number fielded is not an entirely useful metric when they jacked up the cost by 75%.

Relative efficiency per point spent is what matters, because that's what determines whether your points are going further than they previously were. For the price of 9 oldblits you can get just over 5 newblits. Thats a total of 36 shots and 27 wounds (oldblits) vs 30 shots and 20 wounds (newblits). Is T5 really worth 7 fewer wounds? In some cases, maybe. In others, definitely not. Given there was no change beyond number of shots, I think everyone can agree that 36 shots is better than 30 shots, right?

Unless the minidex also has a couple stratagems that work with Infiltrators to double shot or do something else useful, they definitely don't seem worth the 22 each vs an Intercessor's 17. Sure, the zone denial is worth a few extra points, no question. But, the gun is at best equal and you're giving up the Veteran upgrade and the double shot Vigilus powers which really buff Intercessors and even still leave Intercessors a not super popular pick. And that's not even comparing them to Scouts which get double the bodies to cover even more area and give more shots. IMO, Infiltrators make more sense at like 18-19pts, maybe the 20-22 only with good stratagems.

See how long were they making the molds and packing this box?

Cause intercessors were 20 points originally, which makes their cost of 22 more reasonable in proportion

I actually think the Helix Adept is worth it's points. Since you're not losing the model's capabilities as a Infiltrator, you're only actually paying 10 points over simply taking another body, and if he recovers at least one wound, then he has saved at least 11 points and has made his investment back immediately.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Karol wrote:

The Newman wrote:
Thanks Crimson.

So an armed Eliminator is cheaper than an Infiltrator? What kind of [expletive] sense does that make?

33 points for a Suppressor ... that's cheaper than either variety of Inceptor! That doesn't make any [expletive] sense either.

Probably make as much sense as a single obliterator costing more then a shoty dreadnought.

Now now, i got constantly told the new obliterators are better

That's because they are good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ap0k wrote:

The driving factor in this improvement at 3 Obliterators is Endless Cacophony and other target-squad buffs. Your buffs are now effectively targeting another half-squad of Old Obliterators through the addition of the extra New Obliterator.

Except when they're not, like maybe when you're playing into GSC/Aeldari.

This is why factoring stratagems into the numbers is completely misrepresenting their efficiency.

If your Oblits are garbage when you play Aeldari/GSC because they don't get propped up by stratagems, then you can't put them into a list. It's just bad list-building.

If you don't expect to ever face either of those factions, then sure, you can make a case for assumed stratagem success, but given both factions apparent popularity, it's completely disingenuous to claim they're 'better'.

edit: Furthermore, unless I'm misunderstanding something, relative efficiency vs number fielded is not an entirely useful metric when they jacked up the cost by 75%.

Relative efficiency per point spent is what matters, because that's what determines whether your points are going further than they previously were. For the price of 9 oldblits you can get just over 5 newblits. Thats a total of 36 shots and 27 wounds (oldblits) vs 30 shots and 20 wounds (newblits). Is T5 really worth 7 fewer wounds? In some cases, maybe. In others, definitely not. Given there was no change beyond number of shots, I think everyone can agree that 36 shots is better than 30 shots, right?

Then bait with another Strategem. It isn't my fault you can't make your opponent choose between Cacophony or ToT or VotLW.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
I think their big trick will be their use alongside a vindicare which can do the majority of the leg work and double tap onto a different character. Also add on that when are marines ever without some form of buff?

I really doubt they intended to package them 'use with vindicare' they compliment a vindicare but you shouldn't need other units to make units better, especially ones that are not from the same codex.

I doubt in GWs ability to package anything from a rule focused perspective. The fact is that they have a potential synergy with the Vindicare and yeah it would be nice if they didn't need him (and they might not) to be pretty alright. This is the edition of soup and if you are wanting to take things from a more competitive standpoint you have the factor that in.

No, that's just how to make a bad situation better, it has no bearing on whether its a good unit or not.

Soup options has no bearing on whether a unit is good or not? What game are you playing? The reason the castellen is so good is because of soup allows it to be so good. If you took away all of its supporting elements it would not be the juggernaut it is.

Then bait with another Strategem. It isn't my fault you can't make your opponent choose between Cacophony or ToT or VotLW.

Why on earth would your opponent Vect VotLW when they can cripple your telegraphed Oblit drop? Hmm, do I want to stop the Oblits doing 25%ish more damage, or 100% more damage? Man, that's a really tough choice.


And Tide? You're going to use your once-per game stratagem frivolously in order to try and bait out a Vect (during your movement phase) that they can then re-use during your shooting phase anyway (unless they're GSC)?

All they have to do is stop Cacophony on the drop. After that, the Oblits are either dead, or have suffered enough casualties that you can't feasibly Cacophony them anyway.

What planet do some of you guys even live on? I feel like I'm taking fething crazy pills.


edit: You know what. You guys do you. It makes literally zero difference to me whether or not you use them, and I'm sure you'll find out for yourselves how garbage they are in your own time. And if they're not garbage for you, then congrats on having opponents who don't punish your inefficiencies. Just stop spreading misinformation to people who don't know any better. Oblits at base stats are objectively less efficient. Period. There is no discussion possible on this front, and if you disagree, you don't know how numbers work. They get better when you stack buffs on them, but that doesn't make them efficient. Stop equivocating the two.

The Newman wrote:
Thanks Crimson.

So an armed Eliminator is cheaper than an Infiltrator? What kind of [expletive] sense does that make?

One of them is an Elite choice and potentially subject to the Rule of 3 in an organized play setting while the other is a Troops choice that looks to have all of its wargear costs baked in from the outset.

 Kanluwen wrote:

The Newman wrote:
Thanks Crimson.

So an armed Eliminator is cheaper than an Infiltrator? What kind of [expletive] sense does that make?

One of them is an Elite choice and potentially subject to the Rule of 3 in an organized play setting while the other is a Troops choice that looks to have all of its wargear costs baked in from the outset.

Eliminators are a heavy support choice. Infilitrators are a troop choice.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

The Newman wrote:
Thanks Crimson.

So an armed Eliminator is cheaper than an Infiltrator? What kind of [expletive] sense does that make?

One of them is an Elite choice and potentially subject to the Rule of 3 in an organized play setting while the other is a Troops choice that looks to have all of its wargear costs baked in from the outset.

Eliminators are a heavy support choice. Infilitrators are a troop choice.

Cool. Point still stands. Rule of 3 can potentially apply, hence it's not a big deal if the unit is slightly cheaper.

Karol wrote:

The Newman wrote:
Thanks Crimson.

So an armed Eliminator is cheaper than an Infiltrator? What kind of [expletive] sense does that make?

33 points for a Suppressor ... that's cheaper than either variety of Inceptor! That doesn't make any [expletive] sense either.

Probably make as much sense as a single obliterator costing more then a shoty dreadnought.

Or a Centurion costing 10 points less than a shooty dreadnaught.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

The Newman wrote:
Thanks Crimson.

So an armed Eliminator is cheaper than an Infiltrator? What kind of [expletive] sense does that make?

One of them is an Elite choice and potentially subject to the Rule of 3 in an organized play setting while the other is a Troops choice that looks to have all of its wargear costs baked in from the outset.

Eliminators are a heavy support choice. Infilitrators are a troop choice.

Cool. Point still stands. Rule of 3 can potentially apply, hence it's not a big deal if the unit is slightly cheaper.

By that logic a Devastator with a Lascannon should cost less than a Tac Marine with a lascannon.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
BTW for the chaos side, at least the points leaks were confirmed in a Youtube video reviewing the mini-dex.

115 point Obliterators...

The Loyalist numbers were as well. It sucks that the Infiltrators are so expensive.

How much were you really expecting them to be? 12" bubble of "NOPE!" plus the ability to forward deploy and natural rolls of 6s result in a Wound?

22 points might be a bit high--but that's only because Intercessors and Tacticals are high to start with. Expecting Infiltrators to be cheap was a fool's errand.

All seriousness: this is GSC Neophytes v Guard Infantry Squads all over again. People kept trying to say Neophytes at 5ppm were "too expensive" when it was a GEQ model with +1LD, ability to DS, and the Bodyguard rule for nearby characters all rolled into one.

I love the intercessor rules but they are expensive, especially in an edition where fire-output is so important in regards to points efficiency. SM's are further hampered by their already high points cost and low model count. You can't see every unit in a bubble, their points have to reflect how they play in an army GW have never learned that.

Wouldn't it be funny if the box, at least as model design and rules goes, was done 2 or more years ago, and that is why the infiltration guys are costed the way they are aka they have cost matching the pre CA fix primaris ?

Karol wrote:
Wouldn't it be funny if the box, at least as model design and rules goes, was done 2 or more years ago, and that is why the infiltration guys are costed the way they are aka they have cost matching the pre CA fix primaris ?

Considering that the reason that Imperial Knights and Dark Eldar weren't in Chapter Approved (which came out several months after those codexes) was because of how close the release was, I could see this being the case.

I like the look of the Infiltrators(Smoke Grenade Marine and Actual Firing a Pistol Correctly Marine are my favorites) and their rules, I just don't like their points. I will probably still get more once they get their full kit release.

if the only thing to dislike about a unit is the points cost at least you can buy some for casual play and for modeling and know eventually it'll proably be playable

Karol wrote:
Wouldn't it be funny if the box, at least as model design and rules goes, was done 2 or more years ago, and that is why the infiltration guys are costed the way they are aka they have cost matching the pre CA fix primaris ?

Wouldn't be surprised, especially with how badly GW make rules. The only good rules GW can make are cheese lol

BrianDavion wrote:
if the only thing to dislike about a unit is the points cost at least you can buy some for casual play and for modeling and know eventually it'll proably be playable

Oh for sure. And really, they aren't TERRIBLE for their price, I just can't fit them into my list at that points level and I am not going out of my way to do so when I have three perfectly usable Intercessor Squads. But if/when Infiltrators get a price cut, I will be replacing those three Intercessor Squads with Infiltrator Squads (to go with my other three squads of Intercessors).

At any rate, this release did introduce some more variety into my list, since I am replacing my second squad of Hellblasters with a squad of Eliminators and Suppressors.