Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Headlss wrote:
I agree that the game is too lethal.

When you play 5 rounds and nothing dies, this would certainly be a strange game.

 wuestenfux wrote:

Headlss wrote:
I agree that the game is too lethal.

When you play 5 rounds and nothing dies, this would certainly be a strange game.

But to be fair, games that are over in 2 turns are just as strange (or should be).

The best games I've personally experienced are those that go 3-4 turns with no clear "winner" until the end. That happens very infrequently when the firepower exists to wipe a whole army in 2 turns.

-

 wuestenfux wrote:

Headlss wrote:
I agree that the game is too lethal.

When you play 5 rounds and nothing dies, this would certainly be a strange game.

When player 2 can deploy their entire army into cover and still regularly lose 25%-50% of it before their first turn the game is also in a strange state.

 wuestenfux wrote:

Headlss wrote:
I agree that the game is too lethal.

When you play 5 rounds and nothing dies, this would certainly be a strange game.

I don't think anyone suggested that.

Bharring wrote:

Nobody is saying CWE aren't or weren't broken. Or that, historically, the army as a whole when used correctly hasn't been harder to kill at times. What's being said is that the "Marine" is designed to be more durable than the "Space Elf" (note - "Space Elf" not "Slow and durable construct" or "super-advanced tank"). And that the counterpoint that Space Elves have tricksiness/tech/mobility/etc to not die isn't a problem - as long as it's counterbalanced (which it isn't currently/hasn't been).

I don't really have an issue with most of what you posted, I was primarily addressing that resiliency is not armor and toughness alone, and are usually the easiest aspects of resiliency to get around.

Eldar infantry are, by their lonesome, generally pretty squishy of course, but as an army Eldar are usually a pretty hard to kill force as a result of those other factors. In theory, that's perfectly fine, but the ostensibly hardier infantry of other factions is often irrelevant with the firepower common to the game at this point

All very valid and accurate points. I should have been more clear on those points.

You said in one line what I said in paragraphs.

S5 ap -1 to -3 is available in huge numbers and removes marines crazy fast. It also happens to work vs iks.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Grey Knights, they're so bad it feels unfair to fight them!

Hmm.
My 2000 pt GK army manages to get out almost 200 shots in round two when the army (half of it which is on the board) manages to get enough cover in round one.
Not so bad if you ask me. The new bolter rule makes it possible.

Sounds like no army is black or white in terms of meta, but rather shades of grey.

Nah, Grey Knights are honestly the worst codex written. Don't listen to fux. There's not a grey area with Grey Knights and any attempt to defend that atrocity of a codex needs to be ignored or shamed.

Well - apart from strike squads which are pretty okay and in need of a few points drop. The rest of the codex is flipping garbo. Agreed - cast shame. Except - hes talking about strike squads.

BA might be worse after beta bolter. Not sure, but maybe. That its an issue says a lot. Both are really bad.

Martel732 wrote:
BA might be worse after beta bolter. Not sure, but maybe. That its an issue says a lot. Both are really bad.

Pure Marine armies seem not to be (too) unfair.
There is worse out there in the 40k universe.