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Made in us
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Iowa

RevlidRas wrote:
 Apple Peel wrote:
The Schola Progenium is Super Prep School. The Schola Tempestus makes Scions, the Schola Prefectus makes Commissars, the convents make Sisters, etc. The Schola Progenium makes physically and mentally and faithfully fit humans. If we are going to judge how elite a Sister is, then we need to examine the training Sisters receive at convents.
Okay, so they're soldiers who graduated from a prep school that turns out students for special forces colleges etc, and go on to train at fanatical warrior-cults? It's still absurd to claim that they're not elite.

But are they all equally elite, or elite on different levels or in different areas? Sisters go to the convents after graduation for showing excellent faith in the emperor. Otherwise, I’d believe that they’d be tossed into one of the various other jobs or become a Scion.

If the truth can destroy it, then it deserves to be destroyed. 
   
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You give a powerful exoskeleton to a combatant when the combat ability gained is more than you'd get from investing the resources in logistics.

Which is precisely why IG are the backbone of the IoM military might. Marines are certainly better per-person, but IGs take less resources to project the same military might.

Some tasks/missions require a higher concentration of force in a smaller number of individuals; that's where Marines should be used.

Sisters are different because they serve the Ecclesiasty and not the Imperium (directly). The Ecclesiasty's corpus of soldiers (Sisters) doesn't really change in size based on resources invested. And the Ecclesiasty can requesition resources incredibly cheaply - meaning it costs the Ecclesiasty a fraction of the value it takes from the Imperium when they just take what they need. So you have a situation where Power Armor is super cheap to those making decisions. Even if using those resources for more IG or IG gear would be better for the IoM as a whole, it's better for those making the relevant decision to spend them on Sisters, so they spend them on Sisters.

So 40k does seem to follow the "It's wasteful to spend that kind of tech on the *battlefield*" rule. The results just aren't as simple as expected.
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Insectum7 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Why would you give that to a COMBATANT?

Because carrying a really big gun might be more important than martial arts.


We have been capable of producing harness to carry very heavy loads for some time in the real world now, but only now are first world nation armies considering using one for their troops. Carrying heavy loads is murder on soldiers back. Up to 30% (it rises up to 50% amongst female soldiers) of all soldiers suffer injuries related to carrying heavy loads for extanded period of times in deployments or during boot camps. That's a lot of injuries and those who aren't injured suffer reduced performance due to quicker exhaustion, etc. Having a harness would be a blessing, but the army refused to use several different design specifically because they had the side effect of reducing the range of motion, the speed and agility of soldiers. A soldier needs to be able to move quickly, crouch, change position and fight above all else. Only recently have we developped a harness that might be good enough to support the ever increasing weight of an infantry soldier load and still allow a full range of motion. Carrying a really big gun might be important. Any army will choose to have it carried by two or three people instead of giving a stiff harness to have it carried by one just to avoid having their one soldier a sitting duck for a split second too much because in a modern battlefield where people fight with guns, bombs and cannons this means death.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/02 18:40:31


 
   
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It's also another logistics chain to support.

Soldiers win battles, but logistics wins wars.
   
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

Martel732 wrote:
Why would you give that to a COMBATANT?
So they could lug around a heavy bolter on their own while under the ample protection of power armor, thus allowing them to move to the most advantageous position with minimal harm and deliver substantial firepower.

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
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You people are just going to defend this nonsense no matter what they come up with. At this point, I'm fascinated by the mental gymnastics.
   
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[DCM]
Ultramarine Terminator with Assault Cannon






Martel732 wrote:
You people are just going to defend this nonsense no matter what they come up with. At this point, I'm fascinated by the mental gymnastics.

And you're going to gripe, regardless of. . . basically anything.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
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If you think that's `mental gymnastics`, you'd be shocked to see what happens "in the real world". Military appropriations are sausage factories.
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Apple Peel wrote:
RevlidRas wrote:
 Apple Peel wrote:
The Schola Progenium is Super Prep School. The Schola Tempestus makes Scions, the Schola Prefectus makes Commissars, the convents make Sisters, etc. The Schola Progenium makes physically and mentally and faithfully fit humans. If we are going to judge how elite a Sister is, then we need to examine the training Sisters receive at convents.
Okay, so they're soldiers who graduated from a prep school that turns out students for special forces colleges etc, and go on to train at fanatical warrior-cults? It's still absurd to claim that they're not elite.

But are they all equally elite, or elite on different levels or in different areas? Sisters go to the convents after graduation for showing excellent faith in the emperor. Otherwise, I’d believe that they’d be tossed into one of the various other jobs or become a Scion.


Where you make slight error is that Scholam are indeed military academies first and foremost and that the word "Sister" might mean all sorts of things. The Sisterhood is seperated in several branches. Some of them are non combattant like the nurse-like Hospitalier or notary-like like the Famulous. The trait in common between all Sisters is that they are all religious fanatics by the standards of religious fanatics. Sisters of Battle aren't selected on the ground that they are religious fanatics. They are selected on the ground that they are religious fanatics who also happen to be really, really good at killing people while those who have other skills are sent to other branches of the Adepta Sororitas. If they are good with numbers and legal documents, they will become Famulous. If they are good in language skills they will become Dialogous. If they are nurturers and carring, they will be Hospitaliers. The Adpeta Sororita also holds priority on female recruits from the Scholam over the Scions and Commissariat which explains why there are few female Commissars and Scions according to the fluff. The only female commissars and scions there is are those who weren't quite faithful or good enough for them. So that would make them very elite. Plus, training in a SoB covent is pretty much a form of shaolin in space; war is like a mass, training is a prayer, killing the enemy is repentance and dying is martyrhood. That makes fantastically, almost inhumanely good soldiers. Unfortunately it also make insane people, but the Imperium doesn't mind.
   
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Ultramarine Terminator with Assault Cannon






epronovost wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Why would you give that to a COMBATANT?

Because carrying a really big gun might be more important than martial arts.


We have been capable of producing harness to carry very heavy loads for some time in the real world now, but only now are first world nation armies considering using one for their troops. Carrying heavy loads is murder on soldiers back. Up to 30% 9it rises up to 50% amongst female soldiers) of all soldiers suffer injuries related to carrying heavy loads for extanded period of times in deployments or during boot camps. That's a lot of injuries and those who aren't injured suffer reduced performance due to quicker exhaustion, etc. Having a harness would be a blessing, but the army refused to use several different design specifically because they had the side effect of reducing the range of motion, the speed and agility of soldiers. A soldier needs to be able to move quickly, crouch, change position and fight above all else. Only recently have we developped a harness that might be good enough to support the ever increasing weight of an infantry soldier load and still allow a full range of motion. Carrying a really big gun might be important. Any army will choose to have it carried by two or three people instead of giving a stiff harness to have it carried by one just to avoid having their one soldier a sitting duck for a split second too much because in a modern battlefield where people fight with guns, bombs and cannons this means death.


Yeah, I agree with all that. "Carrying a big gun" is more of a simplification than anything else. My overall point is more one of "because the exoskeletons are just not designed for punching harder enough to merit a change from the base Strength characteristic of the model." is really the correct way of saying that.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Insectum7 wrote:

Yeah, I agree with all that. "Carrying a big gun" is more of a simplification than anything else. My overall point is more one of "because the exoskeletons are just not designed for punching harder enough to merit a change from the base Strength characteristic of the model." is really the correct way of saying that.


40K has a huge problem of granularity that Fantasy and Age of Sigmar didn't have to such a degree. Basically, while the stat system goes from 1 to 10. Only the 2 to 4 are actually by used and that is very stupid. The system of Fantasy was designed to make the difference between a weak punch to a ballista bolt or catapult stone while In 40K the strength difference must go from a weak punch to a tactical nuclear bomb. That's just not feasible with a 1 - 10 d6 system.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/02 19:13:58


 
   
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 Melissia wrote:
Not quite. Sororitas power armor is capable of operating in the vacuum of space-- for a lesser amount of time of course, because of a difference in biology.
Environmentally sealed but I don't think it has ever been described as void-capable, nor can I think of any instances of it being used in space. It's certainly lacking the manoeuvring thrusters of the marine armour.


Ozomoto wrote:
Yes she is opposed; that IS my point about her durability in that a gunline opposes but cant kill her in one turn unlike something like a DP which they could overkill 6 times.
More accurately they can kill her in one turn, but they'll likely need to kill her in the next turn as well. The other five DPs worth of firepower will be shooting up the sisters instead.
   
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epronovost wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:

Yeah, I agree with all that. "Carrying a big gun" is more of a simplification than anything else. My overall point is more one of "because the exoskeletons are just not designed for punching harder enough to merit a change from the base Strength characteristic of the model." is really the correct way of saying that.


40K has a huge problem of granularity that Fantasy and Age of Sigmar didn't have to such a degree. Basically, while the stat system goes from 1 to 10. Only the 2 to 4 are actually by used and that is very stupid. The system of Fantasy was designed to make the difference between a weak punch to a ballista bolt or catapult stone while In 40K the strength difference must go from a weak punch to a tactical nuclear bomb. That's just not feasible with a 1 - 10 d6 system.


There are many weapons that are greater than 10 Strength, or do Mortal Wounds. Strength is not actually bound to 10.

I'd also argue that the theoretical difference in strength between a Guardsman and a power-armored Battle Sister is really not important enough to fuss over in a game that also scales to Knight level weapons, etc.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

A.T. wrote:
 Melissia wrote:
Not quite. Sororitas power armor is capable of operating in the vacuum of space-- for a lesser amount of time of course, because of a difference in biology.
Environmentally sealed but I don't think it has ever been described as void-capable, nor can I think of any instances of it being used in space. It's certainly lacking the manoeuvring thrusters of the marine armour.
Was described as void-capable for a limited amount of time in 3.5e Witch Hunters, IIRC. That was the only book that really went in depth on it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/02 19:46:07


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
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 Melissia wrote:
Was described as void-capable for a limited amount of time in 3.5e Witch Hunters, IIRC. That was the only book that really went in depth on it.
Page 19 - appropriate given the new model.

"integral rebreather allowing the Sister to operate in total vacuum for limited periods"
   
Made in jp
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 Melissia wrote:
A.T. wrote:
There is likely little difference between the actual outer armour skin of the astartes and sororitas power armour.
Not quite. Sororitas power armor is capable of operating in the vacuum of space-- for a lesser amount of time of course, because of a difference in biology. It also does have strength-enhancing servos to allow wearing of the armor without slowing down, and operating heavy weapons without assistance. The helmet of the Sororitas is also designed with, and I quote, "full-spectrum filtering and psycho-oculal buffering" to help ensure that the wearer's mind is not overwhelmed by the little-c chaos of the battlefield.


In some of the fluff they're also shown jumping over 20' (up, not out), and ramming themselves through stone walls a few feet thick (2ish I believe). A sister's armor pretty much does anything a marines does except recycle body waste, and anything requiring a black carapace. The marine armor might do it better, either because the marine isn't a human (aka consumables last longer, occupant is stronger/faster), or because the armor just has more room to hold stuff.
   
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@OP:

The holy trinity of weapons of the sisters were always bolter, flamer & melta. Therefore no fancy close combat rules are needed.
   
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Also, my opinion, better weapon skill would be secondary to better weapons when it comes to my CQC wishlist.

Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
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Martel732 wrote:
You people are just going to defend this nonsense no matter what they come up with. At this point, I'm fascinated by the mental gymnastics.


Martel, your whole shtick on this forum is that you're an olympic level mental gymnast.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/07/04 03:27:25


2500pts
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Martel732 wrote:
Why would you give that to a COMBATANT?
Are you seriously asking why you would give a suit focused on lifting heavy loads to a combatant holding a gun as big as she is?

A gun that normally needs to be braced against the ground and carried/operated by two soldiers?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/04 11:23:56


 
   
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USA

yeah the Heavy Bolter makes a modern hmg look like a lightweight.

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in gb
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 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Also, my opinion, better weapon skill would be secondary to better weapons when it comes to my CQC wishlist.


This.

I think it's better to keep WS 4+ and BS 3+ for sisters but add more unique equipment/rules to flesh them out than change the stats. Hell add a flamer/spear melee weapon which also allows you to 'fight' with a flamer/melta/bolter in lieu of your normal close combat attack instead.
   
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USA

I'd still prefer Celestians to get their WS3+ back (they had the equivalent of that before their unnecessary nerf in 5th edition), but yes, the basic Battle Sisters don't need it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/05 11:51:35


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
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 Crimson wrote:
I think they should have WS3+. They're highly trained elites. Marines still have S4 (and nowadays two attacks) so they would still clearly be better, but it would allow the sisters to be better in melee than the guard, which is how it should be.


The Primaris Marines and Sergeants have two attacks. Normal every day 1.- Assault Marines still have 1.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
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 Melissia wrote:
I'd still prefer Celestians to get their WS3+ back (they had the equivalent of that before their unnecessary nerf in 5th edition), but yes, the basic Battle Sisters don't need it.
Celestians are WS 3+

Their 3e rule was that they didn't hit on less against opponents with equal/higher WS (other than characters and monsters), which was swapped out for 2 attacks in 5th. Of course 5e also took away their eviscerator option, dropped their initiative, nerfed their faith and moral, and made them more expensive... but I can't say I remember getting much out of their pre 5e holy hate. They were always suicide melta.
   
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USA

Right, but people were saying Sisters should in general be WS4+. Celestians were equivalent to WS4+ for a while IIRC, just saying they shouldn't be

As for holy hatred, I actually used Celestians for tarpitting back in 3rd edition, so they benefited from hitting more often that way.

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
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Breton wrote:


The Primaris Marines and Sergeants have two attacks. Normal every day 1.- Assault Marines still have 1.

Yet but I was not talking about the legacy units. Primaris are the real Space Marines now.

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 Melissia wrote:
As for holy hatred, I actually used Celestians for tarpitting back in 3rd edition, so they benefited from hitting more often that way.
Could be seen as a disadvantage. You didn't want the sisters getting a few wounds through and drawing combat when they should have been getting themselves killed.
   
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USA

Depends on what they're tarpitting against. Back then, they were capable of tarpitting things like Abbadon or full squads of Berserkers. Against those, getting a few hits in would be a great thing.

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
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London

 Apple Peel wrote:
RevlidRas wrote:
Every single Battle Sister goes through the same school as the most elite special forces available to the entire Astra Militarum. What in the world makes you say that they're not elite soldiers?

The Schola Progenium is Super Prep School. The Schola Tempestus makes Scions, the Schola Prefectus makes Commissars, the convents make Sisters, etc. The Schola Progenium makes physically and mentally and faithfully fit humans. If we are going to judge how elite a Sister is, then we need to examine the training Sisters receive at convents.


Indeed, I don't see anything in their training which would be better than one of the best regiments of guard raised from a tithe world. Just far better equipment and more praying.

RevlidRas wrote:
 Apple Peel wrote:
The Schola Progenium is Super Prep School. The Schola Tempestus makes Scions, the Schola Prefectus makes Commissars, the convents make Sisters, etc. The Schola Progenium makes physically and mentally and faithfully fit humans. If we are going to judge how elite a Sister is, then we need to examine the training Sisters receive at convents.
Okay, so they're soldiers who graduated from a prep school that turns out students for special forces colleges etc, and go on to train at fanatical warrior-cults? It's still absurd to claim that they're not elite.


Fanatical warrior cults would be somewhat similar to many guard regiment training and recruitment systems. Doesn't give you Space Marine or 10, 20 year veteran levels of accuracy in combat.

The_Real_Chris wrote:
I am disappointed they are BS3+... Being neither elite soldiers nor veterans that have survived where everyone else died. And very tough $+ troops would be a neat niche as opposed to tougher Scions.
Look at the size of the scopes on those guns though :p


That is unarguable...

Best reason for BS 4+ though is it makes pointing them a lot easier... In general the more brittle a model with high firepower is the harder they are to balance. Reduce the firepower and make them easier to consistently point.
   
 
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