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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Dumb Smart Guy wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
DTW for 2CP on 4+ is overpriced.

1 CP was extremely cheap for 50% deny chance from any unit and at any roll

Now you might have to think about when to use it, instead of being a no-brainer for every psychic phase of your opponent

Then it needs to increase for World Eaters too then. And Graia. And eventually Black Templars when they get their stuff.
1CP for a 4+ deny (2CP for 75% chance) was perfectly acceptable. People are just looking to nerf Iron Hands for the sake of nerfing them without actually targeting the ACTUAL problems they have.

Don't forget Sisters of Battle!
Though, honestly, I wouldn't mind seeing GW take a more soup-considered approach and have stratagems that vary in cost based on faction. If you've got a "pure" army of Black Templar, World Eaters, SoB, etc, then it costs 1cp. If you've got a soup army, it costs 2.

Then again, I just generally hate stratagems and special rules where you consume a limited and valuable resource on a wildly random chance. I'd rather pay 3CP for an automatic (or a 2+, so it's in line with Vect) than 1-2CP for a 4+.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

World Eaters and Black Templars can just as easily add in an extra detachment and get that access to Psykers. So your argument doesn't work.

One of my three arguments you mean? A psyker won't help since these Stratagems have to be used before DtW. My main argument for why it should be 2CP was never "it's because WE and BT need it, I mentioned it was because of a perceived weakness to psykers, it could also be intended to give them a leg up against psykers. Iron Hands can't have 15 Stratagems all above the level of the one Stratagem that other sub-factions get, it's not fair. Human psychology, IH getting 15 great Stratagems makes it less enjoyable to play WE that only get 1 great Stratagem. A lack of fairness makes an experience less enjoyable, monkies will literally go from eating a cucumber to throwing it in your face if they see their neighbour is eating delicious grapes while they have to contend with cucumber. An unfun game does not encourage spending unless by spending you mean switch over to playing IH.

Waaaghpower wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Dumb Smart Guy wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
DTW for 2CP on 4+ is overpriced.

1 CP was extremely cheap for 50% deny chance from any unit and at any roll

Now you might have to think about when to use it, instead of being a no-brainer for every psychic phase of your opponent

Then it needs to increase for World Eaters too then. And Graia. And eventually Black Templars when they get their stuff.
1CP for a 4+ deny (2CP for 75% chance) was perfectly acceptable. People are just looking to nerf Iron Hands for the sake of nerfing them without actually targeting the ACTUAL problems they have.

Don't forget Sisters of Battle!
Though, honestly, I wouldn't mind seeing GW take a more soup-considered approach and have stratagems that vary in cost based on faction. If you've got a "pure" army of Black Templar, World Eaters, SoB, etc, then it costs 1cp. If you've got a soup army, it costs 2.

Then again, I just generally hate stratagems and special rules where you consume a limited and valuable resource on a wildly random chance. I'd rather pay 3CP for an automatic (or a 2+, so it's in line with Vect) than 1-2CP for a 4+.

How are you going to further balance that? What if Black Templars or Sisters were with AdMech Graia? They still don't get access to Psykers.

It's either a 1CP strat or it's not. It's got nothing to do with allies, and on a 4+ it's completely unreasonable to say it's worth 2CP.

It's been worth 1 CP for all of 8th edition. It's only suddenly become a problem because it's Iron Hands who have it.

 vict0988 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

World Eaters and Black Templars can just as easily add in an extra detachment and get that access to Psykers. So your argument doesn't work.

One of my three arguments you mean? A psyker won't help since these Stratagems have to be used before DtW. My main argument for why it should be 2CP was never "it's because WE and BT need it, I mentioned it was because of a perceived weakness to psykers, it could also be intended to give them a leg up against psykers. Iron Hands can't have 15 Stratagems all above the level of the one Stratagem that other sub-factions get, it's not fair. Human psychology, IH getting 15 great Stratagems makes it less enjoyable to play WE that only get 1 great Stratagem. A lack of fairness makes an experience less enjoyable, monkies will literally go from eating a cucumber to throwing it in your face if they see their neighbour is eating delicious grapes while they have to contend with cucumber. An unfun game does not encourage spending unless by spending you mean switch over to playing IH.

Then what happens when World Eaters get their eventual update? Are we gonna relegate putting it back to 1CP or make it 2CP for World Eaters because they suddenly have a bunch of Strats too?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
It's been worth 1 CP for all of 8th edition. It's only suddenly become a problem because it's Iron Hands who have it.

Bingo. People are nerfing the wrong things when it's the blasted Super Doctrines being an issue for all the Marines, period.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

World Eaters and Black Templars can just as easily add in an extra detachment and get that access to Psykers. So your argument doesn't work.

One of my three arguments you mean? A psyker won't help since these Stratagems have to be used before DtW. My main argument for why it should be 2CP was never "it's because WE and BT need it, I mentioned it was because of a perceived weakness to psykers, it could also be intended to give them a leg up against psykers. Iron Hands can't have 15 Stratagems all above the level of the one Stratagem that other sub-factions get, it's not fair. Human psychology, IH getting 15 great Stratagems makes it less enjoyable to play WE that only get 1 great Stratagem. A lack of fairness makes an experience less enjoyable, monkies will literally go from eating a cucumber to throwing it in your face if they see their neighbour is eating delicious grapes while they have to contend with cucumber. An unfun game does not encourage spending unless by spending you mean switch over to playing IH.

Then what happens when World Eaters get their eventual update? Are we gonna relegate putting it back to 1CP or make it 2CP for World Eaters because they suddenly have a bunch of Strats too?

Sure, if they get more Stratagems than most other armies those Stratagems ought to be less effective in terms of CP cost. You can either have a few powerful Stratagems but be left in the cold when the right circumstances don't come up to use them or you can have a wealth of Stratagems for every situation, but they should never be amazing in that case, just a lot of neat little Stratagems to help out in a lot of situations and slightly increase performance in those areas. Are you perhabs thinking that this is silly due to allies giving access to more Stratagems? Because I believe allies should be nerfed or mono-sub-faction armies should be buffed, so I don't have any mental dissonance as far as my opinions on how the game should be balanced is concerned.

I'll admit though that the Stratagem was pretty far down on my list of concerns about IH and perhaps the nerf was a mistake, but in general I think more Stratagems should come at a cost, like with Specialist Detachments (which I love).

IH having that stratagem is just icing on the cake on an already strong army. They are already strong in the movement phase with 0 move penalties. Shooting phase is kinda obvious how they are good. And they are still sturdy and have a 5++ overwatch against melee. Them having an anti psyker stratagem on top of that is really really good. You dont even have to have a psyker in your list in case you face someone with a game changing psycic power. You just wip out that power and negate it at a key moment. You lost nothing by having it in your tool box.

Its not like they made IH weak in certain areas to then give them the strat to compensate. Even without it they are good. You just wont use it on a random smite or weak buff/debuff anymore but against a key warp time or deny overwatch power it can win you the game and your opponent is forced to try to play around it all game too.

Its a strat that is strong enough for people to choose rusty 17 over loyal 32 sometimes just to get access to it. IH gets it for being IH, didnt even have to sacrifice anything to get it.

I would love to have it at 2 cp in any list I made just in case I would need it. Would be happy to even in insanely CP hungry BA for those rare moments its useful once every 20 games as one of my 50(joke on me since BA isnt a supplement so I only have half of that) available stratagems. I can only remember 8 strats outside of the core strats that are better in my codex.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
It's been worth 1 CP for all of 8th edition. It's only suddenly become a problem because it's Iron Hands who have it.

According to Dakka Dakka space Marines can't have nice things.

BrianDavion wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
It's been worth 1 CP for all of 8th edition. It's only suddenly become a problem because it's Iron Hands who have it.

According to Dakka Dakka space Marines can't have nice things.

Can't have all the nice things*

 Ordana wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
It's been worth 1 CP for all of 8th edition. It's only suddenly become a problem because it's Iron Hands who have it.

According to Dakka Dakka space Marines can't have nice things.

Can't have all the nice things*

But Space Marines have had this stratagem since the old 8th edition codex came out! In fact, it was the first place it was ever printed!

Not really clear why Iron Hands need a "lol no psychic for you" stratagem at all anyway. If its worth 1 CP out of any army context, why shouldn't it be a standard stratagem available for everyone?

Really though, these nerfs are reasonable, but I think IH will still be dominant. Calculated Fury is stupid. I realise there are certain units which don't benefit as much (i.e. they have the rule already) - but giving a 50% performance boost (which makes things far more reliable) is not good for the game.

Its far too large a discrepancy - before you factor in the 6+++, the 5+ overwatch and vehicles only degrading if they have 1-2 wounds left. Or it would be - except I realise there are arguments that Stealthy (since you can, terrain/objectives permitting, just move backwards to maintain the 12" as necessary) plus Master Artisans for even more reliability is even better.

Having encountered this its just dumb. You hit on 3s rerolling 1s, and have a reroll for that stray 2 that comes up. Then you are probably wounding on 3s, rerolling a failed wound. Then you have silly amounts of AP, so hope I have a decent invul. Oh looks like you killed everything, what a shame. My vehicles meanwhile have reasonable toughness and a 2+ save, so have fun with anything lighter than a lascannon.

I'm fine with people complaining about Iron Hands having the stratagem all of a sudden, that makes sense, but it's been fine at 1 CP for over two years and hasn't ruined the game, why is it suddenly worth 2?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Dumb Smart Guy wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
DTW for 2CP on 4+ is overpriced.

1 CP was extremely cheap for 50% deny chance from any unit and at any roll

Now you might have to think about when to use it, instead of being a no-brainer for every psychic phase of your opponent

Then it needs to increase for World Eaters too then. And Graia. And eventually Black Templars when they get their stuff.
1CP for a 4+ deny (2CP for 75% chance) was perfectly acceptable. People are just looking to nerf Iron Hands for the sake of nerfing them without actually targeting the ACTUAL problems they have.

Well World Eaters can't just pick all these powerful strats and modifiers out of a grab bag to hard counter multiple playstyles. With sane rules-writing IH would've had either the 4+ OW or the 4+ deny. But not both. Since they have both, they should pay a premium for the versatility.

Dumb Smart Guy wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Dumb Smart Guy wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
DTW for 2CP on 4+ is overpriced.

1 CP was extremely cheap for 50% deny chance from any unit and at any roll

Now you might have to think about when to use it, instead of being a no-brainer for every psychic phase of your opponent

Then it needs to increase for World Eaters too then. And Graia. And eventually Black Templars when they get their stuff.
1CP for a 4+ deny (2CP for 75% chance) was perfectly acceptable. People are just looking to nerf Iron Hands for the sake of nerfing them without actually targeting the ACTUAL problems they have.

Well World Eaters can't just pick all these powerful strats and modifiers out of a grab bag to hard counter multiple playstyles. With sane rules-writing IH would've had either the 4+ OW or the 4+ deny. But not both. Since they have both, they should pay a premium for the versatility.

So what happens when World Eaters get their inevitable rework?

Your argument is bad.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Dumb Smart Guy wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Dumb Smart Guy wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
DTW for 2CP on 4+ is overpriced.

1 CP was extremely cheap for 50% deny chance from any unit and at any roll

Now you might have to think about when to use it, instead of being a no-brainer for every psychic phase of your opponent

Then it needs to increase for World Eaters too then. And Graia. And eventually Black Templars when they get their stuff.
1CP for a 4+ deny (2CP for 75% chance) was perfectly acceptable. People are just looking to nerf Iron Hands for the sake of nerfing them without actually targeting the ACTUAL problems they have.

Well World Eaters can't just pick all these powerful strats and modifiers out of a grab bag to hard counter multiple playstyles. With sane rules-writing IH would've had either the 4+ OW or the 4+ deny. But not both. Since they have both, they should pay a premium for the versatility.

So what happens when World Eaters get their inevitable rework?

Your argument is bad.

I don't know, what happens?

They get the IH treatment with universal strats and powerful modifiers? That sure sounds fun and a real argument for keeping the IH stuff so cheap.

I'm sure you'll be very proud of being right as the game slides into a dumpster.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I'm fine with people complaining about Iron Hands having the stratagem all of a sudden, that makes sense, but it's been fine at 1 CP for over two years and hasn't ruined the game, why is it suddenly worth 2?

Because IH got loads of buffs they didn't have before?

Tyel wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I'm fine with people complaining about Iron Hands having the stratagem all of a sudden, that makes sense, but it's been fine at 1 CP for over two years and hasn't ruined the game, why is it suddenly worth 2?

Because IH got loads of buffs they didn't have before?

and where already nerfed.

I dont think GW wanted to nerf their super doctrine so punish them in other ways. I think its acceptable balance mechanic. Now you are highly unlikely to use it but its their if you had a brigade for example.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
It's been worth 1 CP for all of 8th edition. It's only suddenly become a problem because it's Iron Hands who have it.

Because, again, it is NOT the same thing. One allows a regular deny before using the stratagem. The other does not. Creating a false equivalence doesn't make you right.

It is a more effective stratagem, in a faction which is not fluffed as hating on psykers.

2CP is fine.

Yup it would have been fine if they didnt get that stratagem to begin with

Tyel wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I'm fine with people complaining about Iron Hands having the stratagem all of a sudden, that makes sense, but it's been fine at 1 CP for over two years and hasn't ruined the game, why is it suddenly worth 2?

Because IH got loads of buffs they didn't have before?

So? It's still only worth 1CP. It's easily the dumbest complaint that's been made about the supplement and unfortunately ome GW listened to. That and the Character dreads, which were NOT a problem.

Context matters. We have some stratagems with different costs for different units. Rotating Ion Shields for example. Should GW make it 1cp for the Castellan again? Its ok at 1cp for some units so why not all?

Or why dont we give every army access to the 1cp cost version of deny a power. Wouldnt change at all how good factions that rely on psychic powers would be or would it? If the best and most playable faction can deny psychic powers at will then it will affect the viability of psykers for all armies.

That some armies without psykers get some psychic defense in return for not having psykers gives flavour to the faction and trades one thing for another. Which is fine. Having everything though is something completely different.

Thunderhammers costs 16 for units and 40 for characters. Obviously they should be 16 for everyone since thunderhammers on veterans isnt a problem and havent been for all of 8th. Same with Storm shields. They should be 2pts for characters as well. I almost forgot Jump Packs.

Having to pay 70pts or so for TH+SS+JP for a captain while it costs 20pts for a Veteran is outrageous!!! How can they cost different when veterans isnt broken. That smash captains can kill a model 5x as expensive turn 1 shouldnt factor in at all. They should be able to kill a 700pts knight while costing less than 100pts!

But you can't buy a veteran with SS+JP+TH, you can buy him and another 4 dudes. Meaning they cost 100pts, this gives them ablative wounds to soak up damage. Maybe not as good as tthe 6+W some characters have, but still good enough.
If character stratagems vs unit ones were balanced vs each other, then the veteran may even be better. Only thing hero have over units, is that they are harder to target, but even that seems to be going away.

Karol wrote:
But you can't buy a veteran with SS+JP+TH, you can buy him and another 4 dudes. Meaning they cost 100pts, this gives them ablative wounds to soak up damage. Maybe not as good as tthe 6+W some characters have, but still good enough.
If character stratagems vs unit ones were balanced vs each other, then the veteran may even be better. Only thing hero have over units, is that they are harder to target, but even that seems to be going away.

Vanguard veterans cant do the same thing as a smash captain due to interactions with other special rules like traits, relics and stratagems. So TH+SS+JP combo cost is different. Makes total sense. Which is my point. Same item but vastly different cost due to context its used. TH cost is 2.5x, SS cost 5x and JP cost 10x. And I havent seen anyone say they should be the same cost. So why should stratagems have to?

Deny a power on 4+ in Iron Hands is not the same as if done in a Black Templar list.

A 4+ overwatch stratagem is really strong in Iron Hands but wouldnt be used in most games as BA even if it were 0,5 cp.

Descent of angels, 3d6 charge, is what makes the BA smash captain so reliable and good over the new marine captains. Its balanced in a pure BA list at 2 cp but would it be the same if Ravenguard or Whitescars had access to it? They can also deny overwatch and their captains hit even harder than the BA one but they cant get in melee as easily. Giving them BAs defining stratagem in combination with everything else they have would be insanely good. No one would want that even if that strat for 2 cp is totaly fine in BA.

Klickor wrote:

Karol wrote:
But you can't buy a veteran with SS+JP+TH, you can buy him and another 4 dudes. Meaning they cost 100pts, this gives them ablative wounds to soak up damage. Maybe not as good as tthe 6+W some characters have, but still good enough.
If character stratagems vs unit ones were balanced vs each other, then the veteran may even be better. Only thing hero have over units, is that they are harder to target, but even that seems to be going away.

Vanguard veterans cant do the same thing as a smash captain due to interactions with other special rules like traits, relics and stratagems. So TH+SS+JP combo cost is different. Makes total sense. Which is my point. Same item but vastly different cost due to context its used. TH cost is 2.5x, SS cost 5x and JP cost 10x. And I havent seen anyone say they should be the same cost. So why should stratagems have to?

Deny a power on 4+ in Iron Hands is not the same as if done in a Black Templar list.

A 4+ overwatch stratagem is really strong in Iron Hands but wouldnt be used in most games as BA even if it were 0,5 cp.

Descent of angels, 3d6 charge, is what makes the BA smash captain so reliable and good over the new marine captains. Its balanced in a pure BA list at 2 cp but would it be the same if Ravenguard or Whitescars had access to it? They can also deny overwatch and their captains hit even harder than the BA one but they cant get in melee as easily. Giving them BAs defining stratagem in combination with everything else they have would be insanely good. No one would want that even if that strat for 2 cp is totaly fine in BA.

Vanguard Vets can't hide the same way for a single model to jump around and those Strats you make mention of, the only one they get to really use is the 3D6 charge one. Otherwise, there's no way you can get them to match Slamguinus for surviving and offense.

Also you're right that Black Templars isn't the same as Iron Hands for the Strat. If you fail your deny you still get to use a 5+++. Clearly that's too broken!

I know. Which is why they have different costs.

Wow! BT gets a 5+++ instead of a 6+++ against mortal wounds!

The strength of the stratagem isnt to spend 2cp to have a 75% chance to negate a smite. Spending 2cp to deny 2 mortal wounds is a bad trade. It costing 3 isnt making it much worse.. Its strength is in the ability to stop more powerful psychic powers in a pinch like doom/jinx on your Leviathan dread. Thats a game changer and worth more than 3 cp in some circumstances.

Klickor wrote:
I know. Which is why they have different costs.

Wow! BT gets a 5+++ instead of a 6+++ against mortal wounds!

The strength of the stratagem isnt to spend 2cp to have a 75% chance to negate a smite. Spending 2cp to deny 2 mortal wounds is a bad trade. It costing 3 isnt making it much worse.. Its strength is in the ability to stop more powerful psychic powers in a pinch like doom/jinx on your Leviathan dread. Thats a game changer and worth more than 3 cp in some circumstances.

So your argument is that, since it stops something from dying sometimes, it should cost more?

That's one of the worst arguments I've heard. Also a 5+++ is significantly significantly better than a 6+++ to stop Mortal wounds. Ergo, why shouldn't that be considered into the cost of Black Templars? They get a 50/75% chance to straight up deny and then they ignore the wounds on a 5+?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Klickor wrote:
I know. Which is why they have different costs.

Wow! BT gets a 5+++ instead of a 6+++ against mortal wounds!

The strength of the stratagem isnt to spend 2cp to have a 75% chance to negate a smite. Spending 2cp to deny 2 mortal wounds is a bad trade. It costing 3 isnt making it much worse.. Its strength is in the ability to stop more powerful psychic powers in a pinch like doom/jinx on your Leviathan dread. Thats a game changer and worth more than 3 cp in some circumstances.

So your argument is that, since it stops something from dying sometimes, it should cost more?

That's one of the worst arguments I've heard. Also a 5+++ is significantly significantly better than a 6+++ to stop Mortal wounds. Ergo, why shouldn't that be considered into the cost of Black Templars? They get a 50/75% chance to straight up deny and then they ignore the wounds on a 5+?

Should every faction get every rule/weapon/ability for the cheapest price? "I only use my tacticals for screens and cp so they should cost 4pts like guard"

We already have different pricing on different items depending on who wears it. Is that wrong? Not every faction get every ability.is that also wrong? Is it more fair that a very well rounded army pays a premium for an ability over what a less well rounded army does? I think its fair.

Why the hell are you talking about mortal wounds from psychic powers as its some large threat and BT is OP due to having a 5++ against it. Against a list that spam smites countering one of them doesnt do much anyway and spending 2cp or 3cp doesnt even matter.

Stopping a Librarian Dreadnought flying in and killing your tank with ease or some other power that is way way stronger than a normal smite is what makes that stratagem good even with the new cost. At the old cost it still wasnt good for stopping mortal wounds so why even get caught up on that.

IH pays nothing to have that strat in their toolbox of 50 stratagems while the other factions with that strat kinda have it as one of their defining strengths. I would argue that IH shouldnt even have it to begin with and if they want psychic defense they can just take a Librarian or warlord trait/relic.

The more options you have you should have to pay some for it. IH have more than others already and having them be too cheap makes it easy to counter every strategy with CP instead of building a good list. Factions without psykers cant get easy defense so have to rely on a stratagem they can use once a turn for 1 cp. If IH player really wants psychic defense he can buy a few librarians as well which is an option others cant. If the price of the strat is to expensive to counter a weak power then he can just hope his Deny The Witch works like everyone else. But to let him skip paying 100pts for a psyker due to him already having a good stratagem in a pinch lets him buy 100pts of more tanks. That is one of the reason the strat is so good for IH. You can buy more tanks and still have a psychic defense.

Why is there so much argument? Iron Hands are still really, really powerful.

They will perform well at the next big tournament, no doubt. SoCal open starts soon, but it's also unfortunate that Salamanders and IF won't be able to use the supplements.