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Headlss wrote:


Too many models. Terrain is largely irrelevant.

And yet, when you tell people that they can play something smaller than 2000 points AND follow what the actual game designers suggest, people look at you in a funny way.

They are all happy to play apocalypse games (without using apocalypse rules).

Really, we dig our own graves.

kingheff wrote:
I kinda wish they'd make the cities of death the default rules to be honest.

It's got a bit of bloat to it, they added a bunch of stuff that is just kind of overwhelming (There's 1-2 key stratagems you should really use with CoD to keep the game from becoming a castlefest, but a lot are basically unnecessary) so I don't know if just slapping it on as the base game is the best idea.

But Obscurement, Hard and Soft cover, and the Grappling/Breaching stratagems are amazing additions to any 40k game. Really reduce deadliness down to a more reasonable level, and make terrain matter while not making shooting units the absolute be-all-end-all.

 captain collius wrote:
I don't feel my Tau are slow. I do feel the design of the Codex and loss of JSJ Really hurts the Ghostkeel and Crisis suits which pushed us towards a more gunline style. Also yes the Coldstar is insanely mobile to use that mobility to its fullest it's often on its own.

I love running the coldstar with a group or two of the remora stealth drones, it makes a nice litttle Air Force.

It seems like nobody here plays Tyranids anymore, so I'm going to controversially nominate them as feeling slow.

No, not Kraken Genestealers or Swarmy or Harpies and Hive Crones (which, btw, who cares that Harpies and Hive Crones are fast? They are such incredible garbage units.), no, those are obviously good.

Its our MCs that are frustratingly slow. If you made a Toxicrene or a Haruspex fast, they still wouldn't be good, but it's pretty gakking lame that Dreadnoughts and Rhinos and Wraithlords all out-race them. The more I think about it, the more a Haruspex makes me think the Hive Mind is a little touched in the head. It births this massive garbage disposal creature that can't run, can't hit, and can't survive. Why would Nids have something that worthless?

But nobody plays Nids anymore, and even when people did, very few of them shared my love for the big Squigglies. I half-expect those units to get shifted to Legends.

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
It seems like nobody here plays Tyranids anymore, so I'm going to controversially nominate them as feeling slow.

No, not Kraken Genestealers or Swarmy or Harpies and Hive Crones (which, btw, who cares that Harpies and Hive Crones are fast? They are such incredible garbage units.), no, those are obviously good.

Its our MCs that are frustratingly slow. If you made a Toxicrene or a Haruspex fast, they still wouldn't be good, but it's pretty gakking lame that Dreadnoughts and Rhinos and Wraithlords all out-race them. The more I think about it, the more a Haruspex makes me think the Hive Mind is a little touched in the head. It births this massive garbage disposal creature that can't run, can't hit, and can't survive. Why would Nids have something that worthless?

But nobody plays Nids anymore, and even when people did, very few of them shared my love for the big Squigglies. I half-expect those units to get shifted to Legends.

I mention nids a few times in here. My kraken list (just like many others) moves 2-3 units a turn 30+ inches, if you get a good set up 1 Genestealer unit can move 70+ inches between the move+advance+double+double move+melee+move after melee+melee again with its 2 piles ins/consolidates. There is a reason why people take 2-3 units of 20, b.c it only takes 1 unit to work to WORK.

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
It seems like nobody here plays Tyranids anymore, so I'm going to controversially nominate them as feeling slow.

No, not Kraken Genestealers or Swarmy or Harpies and Hive Crones (which, btw, who cares that Harpies and Hive Crones are fast? They are such incredible garbage units.), no, those are obviously good.

Its our MCs that are frustratingly slow. If you made a Toxicrene or a Haruspex fast, they still wouldn't be good, but it's pretty gakking lame that Dreadnoughts and Rhinos and Wraithlords all out-race them. The more I think about it, the more a Haruspex makes me think the Hive Mind is a little touched in the head. It births this massive garbage disposal creature that can't run, can't hit, and can't survive. Why would Nids have something that worthless?

But nobody plays Nids anymore, and even when people did, very few of them shared my love for the big Squigglies. I half-expect those units to get shifted to Legends.

Toxicrenes have M8, Dreadnoughts have M6, the big Relic Dreadnought and Wraithlords have M8 but their M characteristic degrades.

The only units getting shifted to Legends are those that GW doesn't produce any longer and are not in one of the current codices, you'll be fine playing with your Toxicrene and Haruspex for quite a while (even if they are currently overpriced).

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
It seems like nobody here plays Tyranids anymore, so I'm going to controversially nominate them as feeling slow.

No, not Kraken Genestealers or Swarmy or Harpies and Hive Crones (which, btw, who cares that Harpies and Hive Crones are fast? They are such incredible garbage units.), no, those are obviously good.

Its our MCs that are frustratingly slow. If you made a Toxicrene or a Haruspex fast, they still wouldn't be good, but it's pretty gakking lame that Dreadnoughts and Rhinos and Wraithlords all out-race them. The more I think about it, the more a Haruspex makes me think the Hive Mind is a little touched in the head. It births this massive garbage disposal creature that can't run, can't hit, and can't survive. Why would Nids have something that worthless?

But nobody plays Nids anymore, and even when people did, very few of them shared my love for the big Squigglies. I half-expect those units to get shifted to Legends.

I mention nids a few times in here. My kraken list (just like many others) moves 2-3 units a turn 30+ inches, if you get a good set up 1 Genestealer unit can move 70+ inches between the move+advance+double+double move+melee+move after melee+melee again with its 2 piles ins/consolidates. There is a reason why people take 2-3 units of 20, b.c it only takes 1 unit to work to WORK.

And if the marine player gets first turn your Jeanstealers are shot off the board before doing anything. then the swarmy gets nuked by heavy weapons....

I dont play competively, I love my big bugs but they all blow huge chunks. the carnifex was hot garbage before they gave it a plus to hit on charge and spores, (i have 9 metal Sks)
i dont even try to field the big stuff anymore there is no point.

Haruspex is such hot garbage it can not kill a unit of basic space marines in an entire game. its a giant tar pit of points that cant kill anything.

Geanstealers that aren’t GSC are just trash anyway, very few armies can’t shoot them off the board with their terrible saves.

I think "if you don't go first you lose" is unfortunately the gamble every assault unit without a near guarantee to make a 9" charge after deepstriking has. If you bring one unit of genestealers, yes they will die. If you bring 3 units of 20, its a bit more work.
But yes, I realise thats a huge points investment and if it doesn't work out, you lose very quickly.

The big bugs were however just badly designed (from the start tbh) and GW clearly can't decide what they should do with them. I mean you can say Genestealers die - but I'd rather have 15~ of them than a Haruspex. I'm not quite sure how low you'd have to go to the point where the Haruspex is the better option. Similar story with the Toxicrene.

If they were 80 points or something stupidly low they'd probably be worth bringing along as cheap meat, but no one would look across the table and go "I'm really worried about what they can do if I don't deal with them". They fundamentally need a rules change.

I feel that my Eldar don’t move as much as they should. A lot of grav tanks sitting back and dropping fire downrange. But when I do need to move? I’m there, almost instantly. Bikes flitting about. Disembark + move + run = far. Jain Zar can hop out of a falcon and be carving someone up across the table before you can blink.

So it doesn’t feel like a very mobile play style, but when the chips are down and movements needs to happen, they have it under the hood and deliver.

 vict0988 wrote:

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
It seems like nobody here plays Tyranids anymore, so I'm going to controversially nominate them as feeling slow.

No, not Kraken Genestealers or Swarmy or Harpies and Hive Crones (which, btw, who cares that Harpies and Hive Crones are fast? They are such incredible garbage units.), no, those are obviously good.

Its our MCs that are frustratingly slow. If you made a Toxicrene or a Haruspex fast, they still wouldn't be good, but it's pretty gakking lame that Dreadnoughts and Rhinos and Wraithlords all out-race them. The more I think about it, the more a Haruspex makes me think the Hive Mind is a little touched in the head. It births this massive garbage disposal creature that can't run, can't hit, and can't survive. Why would Nids have something that worthless?

But nobody plays Nids anymore, and even when people did, very few of them shared my love for the big Squigglies. I half-expect those units to get shifted to Legends.

Toxicrenes have M8, Dreadnoughts have M6, the big Relic Dreadnought and Wraithlords have M8 but their M characteristic degrades.

The only units getting shifted to Legends are those that GW doesn't produce any longer and are not in one of the current codices, you'll be fine playing with your Toxicrene and Haruspex for quite a while (even if they are currently overpriced).

Right, I forgot that some dreads do have M6, correct. And yeah, I know Toxicrenes and Haruspexes won't really get Legended, but it's clear GW doesn't give a feth about them. The Toxicrene could probably be fixed with points drops; Haruspex fundamentally needs new rules.

TheAvengingKnee wrote:
Geanstealers that aren’t GSC are just trash anyway, very few armies can’t shoot them off the board with their terrible saves.

Then you aren't playing with enough of them. Not joking, take 160 of them with broodlords, swarmlord+guard, and rippers to DS on objectives and call it a day.

Edit spelling.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

TheAvengingKnee wrote:
Geanstealers that aren’t GSC are just trash anyway, very few armies can’t shoot them off the board with their terrible saves.

Then you aren't playing with enough of them. Not joking, take 160 of them with broodlords, swarmlord+guard, and rippers to DS on objectives and call it a day.

Edit spelling.

160 Genestealers is 1,920 points on their own.

Spamming Swarmlord, Broodlords, Genestealers, and Hive Guard is also a rather boring way to play, with little room for variation. And if the only way to get melee to work is to take our top-tier most competitive single tournament-viable combo build, well, that speaks volumes.

Wyldhunt wrote:

*Jump-shoot-jump has been replaced with falling back and shooting, a generally pretty powerful benefit, especially in an edition where you can charge in any direction as long as one model makes it to within 1" of a unit you charged and then you can pile into the closest enemy model instead of just ganging up in a clump around whatever you charged.

Falling back and shooting is very powerful, but I don't think it's accurate to say that it has replaced jump-shoot-jump. Many units that couldn't JSJ can fall back and shoot. Also, jumping away from a unit that has already charged you and smacked you around a bit has a very different "feel" from a rule that lets you avoid harm in the first place. Falling back with Fly lets you feel like you're good at making escapes. JSJ let you feel like you were being cagey and using the terrain to stay safe.

This. JSJ was about using manoeuvrability to avoid getting caught, be it in combat or in LOS of enemy guns.

Falling back from combat is no protection against shooting and necessitates being caught in the first place.

So JSJ was a technique to avoid your enemy, Fall back shoot is a technique to escape when you've failed to evade your enemy.

People found fighting against JSJ annoying but what JSJ actually did (as long the second jump distances are not too large, looking at you nova charged riptide) was make movement a more important part of the game by making it so you had to think about where you needed your units to be to catch the JSJer, to force them into a position from which they couldn't escape.

wouldn't moving then shoting mean that a slower army would never be able to catch your army, because you are effectivly moving at the speed of a tank?

Karol wrote:
wouldn't moving then shoting mean that a slower army would never be able to catch your army, because you are effectivly moving at the speed of a tank?

By move then shoot I assume you mean move-shoot-move again?

Maybe if the board were infinite in size and with an infinite amount of terrain to hide behind. It isn't. There is only so far that you can move backwards and only so much terrain on the board to hide behind. An opponent positioning their forces to eliminate the safe spaces to hide which also enable the JSJ unit to get into range to attack means that the JSJ unit either needs to now expose itself to attack, or hide and not contribute.

Then there is also weaponry which does not require LOS, fast units like cavalry and bikes, deep strike etc.

There were lots of counters to the JSJ tactic. If GW had properly balanced the game, then every army would have been able to utilise at least one of them.

 catbarf wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

TheAvengingKnee wrote:
Geanstealers that aren’t GSC are just trash anyway, very few armies can’t shoot them off the board with their terrible saves.

Then you aren't playing with enough of them. Not joking, take 160 of them with broodlords, swarmlord+guard, and rippers to DS on objectives and call it a day.

Edit spelling.

160 Genestealers is 1,920 points on their own.

Spamming Swarmlord, Broodlords, Genestealers, and Hive Guard is also a rather boring way to play, with little room for variation. And if the only way to get melee to work is to take our top-tier most competitive single tournament-viable combo build, well, that speaks volumes.

Meant 120! lol 6 units.