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They can/should provide the barebones free or cheap (like the old 3rd edition slim softbacks) and then have larger books for things like Vigilus, campaigns and the like, or big collector type fluff books. The people who want that can and will buy them, while the people more interested in the game and know the fluff (you can only read so many times about how the Emperor created 20 legions of space marines, 2 went missing and half turned traitor during the Heresy) will just get the "game" book.

Free/digital would of course be better, but this is GW. A slim and cheap paperback/black and white book with just game info would be good and give them some form of income from it rather than a free PDF. That said though I do really like how AOS has all the warscrolls for free, and the books add extras (albeit they are more like codexes now and you "need" them). 40k should have done that too.

I think they now know that any money invested in fluff books or campaign books that don't have the competitive rules in them are largely wasted.

There are indeed some people that would buy them, but AOS 2015-2016 showed us that no one cared about the realmgate books because there was nothing required in them to play.

Based on my gw store manager, in our entire region (so, four GW stores), there were a total of six people that bought any of the realmgate books. Prior to that in whfb they had released Sigmar's Blood (a campaign in 8th edition) and that book sat on shelves untouched as well. Tamurkhan was a luxury book from forgeworld with the chaos dwarf list that was mainly bought for the chaos dwarf list. Had it just been a campaign book, I have a strong feeling that like Sigmar's Blood and the other campaign type books released, it too would have largely been untouched. There was also the Lustria campaign book that had equal non-interest. No competitive rules requirement == very low demand.

They are still in the mindset that books are a great source of revenue, and they are right so long as the books contain the required rules to play the game. Otherwise, if and when they go the route of providing all rules for free like other companies... and if they decide to continue investing in things like campaign books and art and fluff books, they will likely be publish-on-demand due to the very low demand for them.

tneva82 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
If the AoS rules were better written why does a "shield" do a different thing in every army and why do I need to read a paragraph of text in every unit entry to figure out what it does this time? Or for that matter why do I need to read through a paragraph of text about how my models [adverbly verb] to figure out what anyone's equipped with?

Same reason as why meltagun in 40k works differently depending who wields it.

Players wanted bespoke rules so enjoy, you got what you wanted


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 EnTyme wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
If the AoS rules were better written why does a "shield" do a different thing in every army and why do I need to read a paragraph of text in every unit entry to figure out what it does this time? Or for that matter why do I need to read through a paragraph of text about how my models [adverbly verb] to figure out what anyone's equipped with?

Why would these shields do the same thing as these shields?

Did french shields do different effect than roman ones? Maybe one played out ave maria after being struct!

Are you saying that this https://www.medievalcollectibles.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/SC8436.png

might serve a slightly different purpose to this? https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-1f255eafe98dd93fc61dd225c5b08dcb.webp

Because it looks to me like those were designed for VERY different purposes...If you're telling me I have to fight one other guy, maybe from a horse, I'll take the smaller, more solid piece of meta, and if your'e telling me I get to stand with a hundred other lads side to side and my job is to make a big wall, I'll take the big square one the size of my whole body.

Except French knights also fought in formation against other formations. The reason why medieval shields were smaller was because armor was better. Eventually shields would be abandoned completely so knights can wield heavier weapons.

Also, Roman shields weren't made of metal, and neither were most medieval shields. Its only really bucklers that were made of metal.
The Romans weren't the only ones to use a shield wall either; it was a common tactic in the early medieval period, and scutums weren't used then.

And yet medieval shieldwall was completely different to roman line in tactics and weapon.

And of course early medieval armor was literally no different to earlier periods armor, except for helmet shapes, so that argument is silly.

Tbh the whole argument is silly, because why stop at shields? Every model with a sword should have the same damage/rend, since it's a sword, they all work the same.

 auticus wrote:
I think they now know that any money invested in fluff books or campaign books that don't have the competitive rules in them are largely wasted.

There are indeed some people that would buy them, but AOS 2015-2016 showed us that no one cared about the realmgate books because there was nothing required in them to play.

Based on my gw store manager, in our entire region (so, four GW stores), there were a total of six people that bought any of the realmgate books. Prior to that in whfb they had released Sigmar's Blood (a campaign in 8th edition) and that book sat on shelves untouched as well. Tamurkhan was a luxury book from forgeworld with the chaos dwarf list that was mainly bought for the chaos dwarf list. Had it just been a campaign book, I have a strong feeling that like Sigmar's Blood and the other campaign type books released, it too would have largely been untouched. There was also the Lustria campaign book that had equal non-interest. No competitive rules requirement == very low demand.

They are still in the mindset that books are a great source of revenue, and they are right so long as the books contain the required rules to play the game. Otherwise, if and when they go the route of providing all rules for free like other companies... and if they decide to continue investing in things like campaign books and art and fluff books, they will likely be publish-on-demand due to the very low demand for them.

I agree that fluff books don't sell very well. Certain fluff books might sell as collectibles at an increased markup(Horus Heresy book come to mind), but the average Warhammer player has zero interest in pure fluff books in my experience. I think it is worse for Age of Sigmar as the fluff is relatively new comparatively to 40k/30k and WHFB.

I mean, I think the people who are die hard fluff enthusiast are probably buying Black Library books more. I could be wrong though.

In regards to "superiority of writing" I do think that AoS does one thing better than 40k. 40k has a lot of bespoke stratagems: stratagems that are only usable on a single unit. In AoS these things are just command abilities that are on the datasheet itself, whereas in 40k these are stratagems mixed in with the other stratagems. Personally I feel bespoke abilities/stratagems should just be on the datasheet itself instead of as a stratagem card.

 Eldarsif wrote:

 auticus wrote:
I think they now know that any money invested in fluff books or campaign books that don't have the competitive rules in them are largely wasted.

There are indeed some people that would buy them, but AOS 2015-2016 showed us that no one cared about the realmgate books because there was nothing required in them to play.

Based on my gw store manager, in our entire region (so, four GW stores), there were a total of six people that bought any of the realmgate books. Prior to that in whfb they had released Sigmar's Blood (a campaign in 8th edition) and that book sat on shelves untouched as well. Tamurkhan was a luxury book from forgeworld with the chaos dwarf list that was mainly bought for the chaos dwarf list. Had it just been a campaign book, I have a strong feeling that like Sigmar's Blood and the other campaign type books released, it too would have largely been untouched. There was also the Lustria campaign book that had equal non-interest. No competitive rules requirement == very low demand.

They are still in the mindset that books are a great source of revenue, and they are right so long as the books contain the required rules to play the game. Otherwise, if and when they go the route of providing all rules for free like other companies... and if they decide to continue investing in things like campaign books and art and fluff books, they will likely be publish-on-demand due to the very low demand for them.

I agree that fluff books don't sell very well. Certain fluff books might sell as collectibles at an increased markup(Horus Heresy book come to mind), but the average Warhammer player has zero interest in pure fluff books in my experience. I think it is worse for Age of Sigmar as the fluff is relatively new comparatively to 40k/30k and WHFB.

I mean, I think the people who are die hard fluff enthusiast are probably buying Black Library books more. I could be wrong though.

Actually it's the opposite, AOS fluff is outstripping whfb by miles. According to the BL writers Gav and Josh Reynolds only some of the times of legend books have earned back their money, AOS books have. The new Soul Wars book that came with 2nd edition AOS has reached Horus Heresy numbers in terms of book sales according to Josh Reynolds.

I largely agree with him that sometimes perception on the internet doesn't match the cold hard numbers, the books are one case of this. I do agree overall, players prefer smaller fluff books when it comes to GW main releases. Hence why you have seen GW downsize them somewhat for both AOS and 40k.

At the end of the day, I don't see the point comparing, just play what you enjoy.

I'm not talking novels here, I'm talking about the fluff/campaign books that they try to push in the game store. I don't see the point in them publishing fluff / campaign books, but I understand why they push the art and fluff in their army books and inflate the cost of the book. It makes them money but I believe thats mostly solely because of the rules within being required. When there are no rules that are *required* in a release, I find it tends to not move at all.

The novels are a different matter altogether. I have no point of reference or data to discuss those intelligently on how well they sell.

I was also referring to the campaign/fluff books. The novels are at its own beast and are often very popular with people who aren't even playing the games. Went to a lecture with Dan Abnett and he talked about how a large swathe of readers got into Horus Heresy novels and none of them had any particular interest in the game itself.

If youre saying the campaign books are flying off shelves, i must live in a black hole region then that is an exception to the rules.

 auticus wrote:
If youre saying the campaign books are flying off shelves, i must live in a black hole region then that is an exception to the rules.

From your other posts you do seem to be in a very "high competitive" region of AoS players who seem to be focused purely upon the most powerful power play possible within the AoS system. Whilst they are not exclusive groups, the highly competitive players can have less interest in the lore/background/fluff of the game. Which would also match somewhat to your harder time finding fluffy/lore/narrative style games.

I'd love to hear from some other people who have something solid to the contrary in regards to those books moving well (like actual stores that can't keep those books in stock or something similar)

What was the last campaign book to drop? I believe it was firestorm correct? I'm talking book with no actual real rules to play the game with.

They seem to have stopped going that route, and I believe there's a strong reason for that. If they were selling so well I'd expect to see those type of offerings be continued.

 auticus wrote:
If youre saying the campaign books are flying off shelves, i must live in a black hole region then that is an exception to the rules.

The novels are flying off the shelves. Not the campaign books. I was referring to campaign/fluff books when I was talking about a niche market whereas the novels(being their own beast) are actually selling quite well. The novels appeal to a much wider audience that is completely removed from the game itself. This is a luxury that the fluff/campaign books don't have as they are marketed usually at existing players.

Ah ok i misunderstood, gotcha. Yeah i can see the novels doing good.

Honestly I think after things like the HH series BL is advertising itself better. I know way back in the "golden era" a lot of the fiction just wasn't really marketed as heavily nor as well. I think that BL has also pushed into more general book stores as well and the authors are getting far more of a name and fanbase for themselves as well.

I hope BL keeps pubishing the collected Old World legends books - I can see them picking up in sales when the OW game comes out in a few years; and at the very least they'll have the digital versions which won't cost anything to keep on sale even if the paperbacks fall out of print. Plus I really like the collections as they do simpilfy the BL listings