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Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User






This is the story of how I went from being really interested in 40k as a game to only interested in painting the minis and reading the books as far away from my local community as possible. Not saying they're all bad, but the group of regulars at what has been up until recently the only gaming store in my area (the local GW) really turned me off of Warhammer for a while. The manager is a great guy, if a bit pushy when he gets in his head what he thinks your army needs, but the regular store-goers are jerks.

Shortly before the launch of 8th edition, I discovered Warhammer 40k through reddit and thought the models looked awesome. I found out there was a game and TONS of lore and spent a few months looking into it. After absorbing a ton of lore and reading various articles on the playstyles of all the factions at the time, I decided that I really liked the AdMech. The codex had just released a month or so before, the models in the Start Collecting looked awesome, and I had spent some time saving bits and pieces of my paychecks to buy the SC box and the codex. I was on a tight budget at the time because I was still having to use my parents' income on my FAFSA and was having to pay a significant amount out of pocket for school every semester. One day after I had finished with my classes, I made my way down to the GW to buy my codex and a box at the very least, but potentially the Start Collecting instead. I went in and told the manager that I was new to the hobby, hadn't built much other than hobby lobby models, and was looking at starting with AdMech. I mentioned that I wanted to try and save as much money as I could starting out. I should have clarified what I meant, but didn't get the chance.

He immediately recommended Knights as the best choice for someone wanting a cheap army because with the right loadouts, a full 2k army could be made with just a few models. I started to say that the Knight was too expensive for me at the time (my budget was ~$130 including the tax, the Knight was $140 before tax, IIRC), when several of the regulars sitting there painting chimed in. It was a several minute-long rant, the gist of which was something along the lines of "this is a HOBBY and hobbies are EXPENSIVE. If you aren't willing to pay that much, you should get out." The manager wasn't happy that the guy said it, but didn't say anything to him about it and then recommended that I get Grey Knights instead of AdMech for a more budget-friendly choice. I went over and looked at their codex for a few minutes, then left without buying anything. I checked the store's reviews after I left, and it turns I wasn't the only one with issues with the regulars. Almost every review talked about how wonderful the manager was if you got him one-on-one to help you start out, but how awful several of the store's regulars were to anyone new.

To that guy's point, I do understand that hobbies are expensive. However, I don't support telling someone who is new and has already said that they're on a budget that they either need to go all in or give up. If I had bought that knight, blowing my budget out of the water, I would have felt awful for weeks afterward. I also would have been incredibly intimidated with that as my first model, and I probably would have never finished it and instead given up on the hobby all together. I know that seems extreme, but I know how I am when I get overwhelmed by a project. Heck, it took me forever to finish the Magmadroth for my Fyreslayers because my airbrush compressor died on me and I had to paint it by hand, and that was after a year of experience painting! Instead, I took it slow, buying some cheap minis and practicing on those.

The whole thing turned me off of 40k for about a year before I finally ended up buying some minis for cheap on eBay. Even now, several years later, I still only go to the GW occasionally to pick up paints that I need immediately for painting projects. Thankfully, a new LGS just opened up a few weeks ago and is supposed to be a really casual environment for gaming. Otherwise, I would probably never get to play a game because the only other choice in less than an hour's drive is that GW.
   
Made in us
The Hammer of Witches





A new day, a new time zone.

the_scotsman wrote:
 Da Boss wrote:
It is really interesting how many of the negative stories here have to do with the mismatch between casual and competitive lists.
It seems to cause a lot of strife.


Sometimes. But just as often in my experience, the perception of a mismatch between casual and competitive can cause just as much of a rift. I've seen plenty of people getting incredibly angry because their opponent beat them with what was objectively a far less competitive list, because they used tactics that the other player just didn't like.

I'd say one of my most memorable games was from 4th edition where my opponent completely lost his cool, complaining with every dice roll, 'that army is such bs.!'

The triggering incident?

His IG guys not getting armor saves when in CC with a carnifex.

"-Nonsense, the Inquisitor and his retinue are our hounoured guests, of course we should invite them to celebrate Four-armed Emperor-day with us..."
Thought for the Day - Never use the powerfist hand to wipe. 
   
Made in ch
Revered Rogue Psyker





 Bookwrack wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
 Da Boss wrote:
It is really interesting how many of the negative stories here have to do with the mismatch between casual and competitive lists.
It seems to cause a lot of strife.


Sometimes. But just as often in my experience, the perception of a mismatch between casual and competitive can cause just as much of a rift. I've seen plenty of people getting incredibly angry because their opponent beat them with what was objectively a far less competitive list, because they used tactics that the other player just didn't like.

I'd say one of my most memorable games was from 4th edition where my opponent completely lost his cool, complaining with every dice roll, 'that army is such bs.!'

The triggering incident?

His IG guys not getting armor saves when in CC with a carnifex.



Second mate, 4th like where every weapon was DS 5 ? and a carnifex more akin a tank but better in nearly every reagard ? Erm, why would he suspect that he had an armor save ? Like all the chaff under SV4+ had never an armor save in my experience.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
Trick Question, of course it's the loyalists!

(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost and 8th edition.) 
   
Made in de
Battlefield Tourist






Nuremberg

 celebrandas wrote:


He immediately recommended Knights as the best choice for someone wanting a cheap army because with the right loadouts, a full 2k army could be made with just a few models. I started to say that the Knight was too expensive for me at the time (my budget was ~$130 including the tax, the Knight was $140 before tax, IIRC), when several of the regulars sitting there painting chimed in. It was a several minute-long rant, the gist of which was something along the lines of "this is a HOBBY and hobbies are EXPENSIVE. If you aren't willing to pay that much, you should get out." The manager wasn't happy that the guy said it, but didn't say anything to him about it and then recommended that I get Grey Knights instead of AdMech for a more budget-friendly choice. I went over and looked at their codex for a few minutes, then left without buying anything. I checked the store's reviews after I left, and it turns I wasn't the only one with issues with the regulars. Almost every review talked about how wonderful the manager was if you got him one-on-one to help you start out, but how awful several of the store's regulars were to anyone new.


Wow, what an obnoxious spanker. Sorry you had that experience. I hope you have enjoyed yourself more since, sounds like that guy had terrible social skills and a terrible attitude. Also the GW guy absolutely should have just sold you the Start Collecting if that is what you wanted. This upselling nonsense is very offputting.

   
Made in ch
Revered Rogue Psyker





Yikes, that is bad.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
Trick Question, of course it's the loyalists!

(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost and 8th edition.) 
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot





 Da Boss wrote:
 celebrandas wrote:


He immediately recommended Knights as the best choice for someone wanting a cheap army because with the right loadouts, a full 2k army could be made with just a few models. I started to say that the Knight was too expensive for me at the time (my budget was ~$130 including the tax, the Knight was $140 before tax, IIRC), when several of the regulars sitting there painting chimed in. It was a several minute-long rant, the gist of which was something along the lines of "this is a HOBBY and hobbies are EXPENSIVE. If you aren't willing to pay that much, you should get out." The manager wasn't happy that the guy said it, but didn't say anything to him about it and then recommended that I get Grey Knights instead of AdMech for a more budget-friendly choice. I went over and looked at their codex for a few minutes, then left without buying anything. I checked the store's reviews after I left, and it turns I wasn't the only one with issues with the regulars. Almost every review talked about how wonderful the manager was if you got him one-on-one to help you start out, but how awful several of the store's regulars were to anyone new.


Wow, what an obnoxious spanker. Sorry you had that experience. I hope you have enjoyed yourself more since, sounds like that guy had terrible social skills and a terrible attitude. Also the GW guy absolutely should have just sold you the Start Collecting if that is what you wanted. This upselling nonsense is very offputting.


Also, wrong. Aren't Custodes generally considered the cheapest per point?

...

Yeah, a basic squad of adeptus custodes is 4$/point, a knight looks to be about 2.5. I'd assume the custode elite stuff is even better ratios, since their character guy is 35$ for like 200+ points, their bikers can be all characters if you want making them like 450pts for 60$, etc.
   
Made in us
Excellent Exalted Champion of Chaos





 Da Boss wrote:
It is really interesting how many of the negative stories here have to do with the mismatch between casual and competitive lists.
It seems to cause a lot of strife.


It is the single greatest bane in trying to run casual events for me, and why I am the way I am and am passionate about game balance the way I am.

Parabellum Conquest Vanguard and champion of all things Conquest: The Last Argument of Kings

My Conquest youtube content:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLe9ZjKe25oMNH6q3_XU0QxkBt2mEm_F1y 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User






 Da Boss wrote:
 celebrandas wrote:


He immediately recommended Knights as the best choice for someone wanting a cheap army because with the right loadouts, a full 2k army could be made with just a few models. I started to say that the Knight was too expensive for me at the time (my budget was ~$130 including the tax, the Knight was $140 before tax, IIRC), when several of the regulars sitting there painting chimed in. It was a several minute-long rant, the gist of which was something along the lines of "this is a HOBBY and hobbies are EXPENSIVE. If you aren't willing to pay that much, you should get out." The manager wasn't happy that the guy said it, but didn't say anything to him about it and then recommended that I get Grey Knights instead of AdMech for a more budget-friendly choice. I went over and looked at their codex for a few minutes, then left without buying anything. I checked the store's reviews after I left, and it turns I wasn't the only one with issues with the regulars. Almost every review talked about how wonderful the manager was if you got him one-on-one to help you start out, but how awful several of the store's regulars were to anyone new.


Wow, what an obnoxious spanker. Sorry you had that experience. I hope you have enjoyed yourself more since, sounds like that guy had terrible social skills and a terrible attitude. Also the GW guy absolutely should have just sold you the Start Collecting if that is what you wanted. This upselling nonsense is very offputting.


I've enjoyed myself painting since then, but haven't played a game yet since there aren't any other places to play in an easy driving distance right now. Most of the non-GW stores closed down because of bad locations, and I haven't made it to the newest store that opened up yet.

I also never did get any AdMech. I do still want to grab a box some day, but I've spent my time since then painting a handful of marines, some Fyreslayers, and various minis from other systems.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut



UK

the_scotsman wrote:
One of the biggest things I've had to stop doing with frustrated people where I play is offering to play their army against mine to show how I'd run it. More often than not I can win, or at least make the game far far less one sided than it was, but if you take away peoples' primary excuse for their loss (my army is just bad/their army is just OP) then they tend to fall back on "This person is just a scummy WAAC player" and they get mad at you or at others rather than at the game.

It seems like a quick army switch would be a good way to get peoples' confidence back up, show them their army CAN win and they just need to use it effectively, but evidence has shown me that's the opposite of what a lot of folks want to see and hear, and they're much happier with a string of losses they can blame on out of control factors.

"Now that I've thoroughly tanned your backside, let me do it again with the collection of models I've just effortlessly curbstomped , sight unseen, just to peacock away at how much better I am at this than you are."

That's why this sort of offer is NEVER going to go down well, no matter how well-intentioned it is in your mind ... (And I say this as someone with a black belt in Foot-In-Mouth-jutsu)

Not got many contributions that havent been hinted at already, though one particular annoyance for me was that Guy Who Doesn't Like Your Game/Genre. Yes ok, we get it, Warhammer isn't a perfect simulation of medieval warfare and has (had?) some ... quaint mechanics, but constantly going on about it, and making sure that any potential new club members also know your opinion. Repeatedly. Then wonder why they stop coming back. Pity because otherwise a great guy and an absolute treasure trove of modelling knowledge, but...

Hey, there's that social awareness thing again....
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




Tampa, FL

 ArcaneHorror wrote:

Wow, what a bunch of unstable gakheads, you're probably lucky to be away from them as they're probably trouble magnets. And that Hackmaster game sounds douchey and cringy as hell.
It really wasn't. They since made it less of a parody and its own game, but it was meant to be a tongue-in-cheek jab at the "good old days" of D&D, like they do in the comics it came from. Let me be clear here the game wasn't to blame, it was just these jackasses who took it to some extreme for whatever reason. It would have been a fun game if you played it like a light-hearted almost comedic game ("The old man approaches you and says he knows the location of vast riches, for--" "I WASTE HIM WITH MY CROSSBOW!" type of stuff) but they went way too far. Especially at the end. The thread and probably forums now are long gone but I wish I had saved it just to laugh at it later.

Luckily other than that experience I've never really had one so bad I've left a store. There are a few people I don't like to play Warhammer against because they make the game not fun, including a few actual friends who I'm fine talking about Warhammer with (just dislike playing them), but nothing extreme.

- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle






Pilum wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
One of the biggest things I've had to stop doing with frustrated people where I play is offering to play their army against mine to show how I'd run it. More often than not I can win, or at least make the game far far less one sided than it was, but if you take away peoples' primary excuse for their loss (my army is just bad/their army is just OP) then they tend to fall back on "This person is just a scummy WAAC player" and they get mad at you or at others rather than at the game.

It seems like a quick army switch would be a good way to get peoples' confidence back up, show them their army CAN win and they just need to use it effectively, but evidence has shown me that's the opposite of what a lot of folks want to see and hear, and they're much happier with a string of losses they can blame on out of control factors.

"Now that I've thoroughly tanned your backside, let me do it again with the collection of models I've just effortlessly curbstomped , sight unseen, just to peacock away at how much better I am at this than you are."

That's why this sort of offer is NEVER going to go down well, no matter how well-intentioned it is in your mind ... (And I say this as someone with a black belt in Foot-In-Mouth-jutsu)


I've seen it happen a couple of times and neither time it went down like that. I've done it myself with a good friend who I've known for years and was learning EC. We switched armies as I am unfamiliar with EC and it was just to see how another person who was learning would play.

Another one I saw was from a friend of mine when he worked for GW. He was playing a kid at LOTR and the kid who was using an army consisting of The Fellowship got whooped. To which he says that The Fellowship is no good. Friend offers to play again but switch sides to teach him how to use them as a competent combined arms force.



A GW fan walks into a bar, buys the same drink as yesterday but pays more.

""Unite" is a human word, ... join me or die."

If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them. 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




UK

It's all in the presentation and how you talk to them. Sure if you just play their army for them they won't learn anything. You have to shift from play to teach mode and not everyone has teaching mode. You gotta learn how to teach.

A Blog in Miniature - now featuring reviews of many new Black Library books (latest Novellas) 
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot





Pilum wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
One of the biggest things I've had to stop doing with frustrated people where I play is offering to play their army against mine to show how I'd run it. More often than not I can win, or at least make the game far far less one sided than it was, but if you take away peoples' primary excuse for their loss (my army is just bad/their army is just OP) then they tend to fall back on "This person is just a scummy WAAC player" and they get mad at you or at others rather than at the game.

It seems like a quick army switch would be a good way to get peoples' confidence back up, show them their army CAN win and they just need to use it effectively, but evidence has shown me that's the opposite of what a lot of folks want to see and hear, and they're much happier with a string of losses they can blame on out of control factors.

"Now that I've thoroughly tanned your backside, let me do it again with the collection of models I've just effortlessly curbstomped , sight unseen, just to peacock away at how much better I am at this than you are."

That's why this sort of offer is NEVER going to go down well, no matter how well-intentioned it is in your mind ... .


Yeah, that's a realistic portrayal of how these scenarios go, it's never an offer given out of frustration when someone has spent the last couple hours whining endlessly about how utterly broken your army is and how completely hopelessly underpowered theirs is, and how there's nothing they could have done.

Often, people give you no way to continue the conversation in a friendly, positive light not taking their frustration personally, and you think maybe you'll try giving some productive advice or tell them about some of the weaknesses that your army has or tactics they could have tried to use. I don't know about you but I despise giving advice that just amounts to "buy some new stuff" online and I hate it even more in person, so if I talk to someone about how to change their game experience I almost always try to treat the list as something I'm not allowed to touch, unless I know exactly what's on their bench or I can rearrange the models they have in a different configuration. The best way to do that if you're standing at a gaming table with your miniatures right there and your dice and everything still out is to run through a couple of example scenarios.

That's what I generally do nowadays, anyway, it seems to work a little better. And I have seen some people do the full game re-rack thing successfully - one of our more competitive players is a high school teacher, and I've seen him do an extremely good job showing someone how to better use their list.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut



UK

Ah... well, ironically enough, I've clearly not expressed my point in the manner in which it was intended!

What I was getting at was not that the idea of helping your fellow gamer is a bad one, nor attacking your motivation, scotsman. But it's how it CAN (note, CAN) sound to the person you're trying to help - especially if, as you say yourself, they're frustrated.
This means that they're not in a learning mindset.
They're already having a crappy time, their mental shields are already up, they're going to be naturally antagonistic about all things -> *insert ruleset name here, 'cos it's not exclusively a 40k problem* <- for a while.
They can very easily twist well-intentioned words into gloating.

Don't forget, it might not be YOU, per se. Your game could just be the twelfth one on the bounce in which they've been utterly blown out, made to feel powerless and that something they do for 'fun' actually isn't any more. I've been on both sides of the table on this one, and it sucks either way.

Grimtuff's post actually touches on the only times I'd expect it to go well - "a good friend", or at least "known for years" preferably in a regular club environment or a 'kid' who's still relatively new but, more importantly, is already used to being taught stuff in their 'day job', as it were. And even then, you have to get both of them at the right time, in my experience.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/13 21:12:19


 
   
 
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