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2020/05/14 09:50:18
Subject: Shield of Baal: Leviathan, is it saying Tyranids can eat Gas Giants?
If you take the notion that much of the drive for technology comes from competition, consider that Tyranids may not consider anything they've come up against as 'competition'.
Yep.
From "the devastation of baal".
"Every machine and psychic ability the Imperium had geared towards detection, the lictor could evade. The hive mind had consumed far more advanced races than mankind. Infiltrating Baal was child’s play. There was no need for it to employ a fraction of its considerable talents."
That might change though.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/14 10:07:25
Tyranid fanboy.
Been around since 3rd edition.
2020/05/14 13:02:01
Subject: Shield of Baal: Leviathan, is it saying Tyranids can eat Gas Giants?
They don't really need to worry about going fast in realspace when they can jump around with abandon - the hive mind being capable of drowning out chaos means they're far less likely to be assaulted by daemons in transit than other species. Jumping into the gravity well of a star is dangerous to everyone else, but nids don't care. they can just appear right over their chosen planet.
BFG background has Tyranids exiting the warp far out system, further out than comparable human ships exit, then they drift in. Maybe that gives them enough time to start waking up from hibernation, which can be an energy saving practice even when travelling within the Milky Way galaxy. If you're looking for a weakness of the Tyranids, that's one. That is a window of vulnerability when enemies can strike, and the still mostly dormant ships only have a few patrolling sentries and just woken creatures in their innards.
2020/05/14 13:23:06
Subject: Shield of Baal: Leviathan, is it saying Tyranids can eat Gas Giants?
pm713 wrote: Not making sense isn't a great argument in 40k. The existence of necrons doesn't make sense, the Horus Heresy doesn't make sense, the Custodes don't make sense and...well have you seen what Orks do?
Nid shipyards are well within possibility and actually make sense in some situations.
Agreed. It's best to take most of it on face value and not to think about it too hard.
Gellar fields are perhaps the most slowed concept I've encountered in any scifi. Absolute nonsense.
Personally I'm just in it mostly for the power armor and ultra violence.
Why the issue with gellar fields?
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
2020/05/14 16:27:38
Subject: Shield of Baal: Leviathan, is it saying Tyranids can eat Gas Giants?
They don't really need to worry about going fast in realspace when they can jump around with abandon - the hive mind being capable of drowning out chaos means they're far less likely to be assaulted by daemons in transit than other species. Jumping into the gravity well of a star is dangerous to everyone else, but nids don't care. they can just appear right over their chosen planet.
BFG background has Tyranids exiting the warp far out system, further out than comparable human ships exit, then they drift in. Maybe that gives them enough time to start waking up from hibernation, which can be an energy saving practice even when travelling within the Milky Way galaxy. If you're looking for a weakness of the Tyranids, that's one. That is a window of vulnerability when enemies can strike, and the still mostly dormant ships only have a few patrolling sentries and just woken creatures in their innards.
Iirc this was the premise behind the old Advanced Space Crusade and Tyranid Attack games. Space Marines would board the hive ships while they were waking up and try to destroy vital organs before the ships could become full strength. Mind you, that game was HARD on the Space Marines. Being stuck in corridors with waves of Nids coming out of the walls is pretty brutal.
pm713 wrote: Not making sense isn't a great argument in 40k. The existence of necrons doesn't make sense, the Horus Heresy doesn't make sense, the Custodes don't make sense and...well have you seen what Orks do?
Nid shipyards are well within possibility and actually make sense in some situations.
Agreed. It's best to take most of it on face value and not to think about it too hard.
Gellar fields are perhaps the most slowed concept I've encountered in any scifi. Absolute nonsense.
Personally I'm just in it mostly for the power armor and ultra violence.
Why the issue with gellar fields?
Some of the laziest and most ridiculous plot armor I've ever encountered. Basically whoever came up with that wasn't intelligent enough to conceive of a form of warp travel that makes any sense at all.
2020/05/14 20:00:32
Subject: Shield of Baal: Leviathan, is it saying Tyranids can eat Gas Giants?
pm713 wrote: Not making sense isn't a great argument in 40k. The existence of necrons doesn't make sense, the Horus Heresy doesn't make sense, the Custodes don't make sense and...well have you seen what Orks do?
Nid shipyards are well within possibility and actually make sense in some situations.
Agreed. It's best to take most of it on face value and not to think about it too hard.
Gellar fields are perhaps the most slowed concept I've encountered in any scifi. Absolute nonsense.
Personally I'm just in it mostly for the power armor and ultra violence.
Why the issue with gellar fields?
Some of the laziest and most ridiculous plot armor I've ever encountered. Basically whoever came up with that wasn't intelligent enough to conceive of a form of warp travel that makes any sense at all.
Then you do better.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
2020/05/14 20:14:55
Subject: Shield of Baal: Leviathan, is it saying Tyranids can eat Gas Giants?
pm713 wrote: Not making sense isn't a great argument in 40k. The existence of necrons doesn't make sense, the Horus Heresy doesn't make sense, the Custodes don't make sense and...well have you seen what Orks do?
Nid shipyards are well within possibility and actually make sense in some situations.
Agreed. It's best to take most of it on face value and not to think about it too hard.
Gellar fields are perhaps the most slowed concept I've encountered in any scifi. Absolute nonsense.
Personally I'm just in it mostly for the power armor and ultra violence.
Why the issue with gellar fields?
Some of the laziest and most ridiculous plot armor I've ever encountered. Basically whoever came up with that wasn't intelligent enough to conceive of a form of warp travel that makes any sense at all.
Then you do better.
I'm not seeing what's particularly ridiculous about it. Or even plot armour-ish. I mean they're better than void shields by far.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
2020/05/14 20:20:17
Subject: Shield of Baal: Leviathan, is it saying Tyranids can eat Gas Giants?
pm713 wrote: Not making sense isn't a great argument in 40k. The existence of necrons doesn't make sense, the Horus Heresy doesn't make sense, the Custodes don't make sense and...well have you seen what Orks do?
Nid shipyards are well within possibility and actually make sense in some situations.
Agreed. It's best to take most of it on face value and not to think about it too hard.
Gellar fields are perhaps the most slowed concept I've encountered in any scifi. Absolute nonsense.
Personally I'm just in it mostly for the power armor and ultra violence.
Why the issue with gellar fields?
Some of the laziest and most ridiculous plot armor I've ever encountered. Basically whoever came up with that wasn't intelligent enough to conceive of a form of warp travel that makes any sense at all.
Then you do better.
I'm not seeing what's particularly ridiculous about it. Or even plot armour-ish. I mean they're better than void shields by far.
Really? You don't see a conundrum in a situation where the the fact that the laws of physics which govern realspace are null and void can be surmounted by projecting a field of realspace reality around a space ship?
2020/05/14 20:21:59
Subject: Shield of Baal: Leviathan, is it saying Tyranids can eat Gas Giants?
pm713 wrote: Not making sense isn't a great argument in 40k. The existence of necrons doesn't make sense, the Horus Heresy doesn't make sense, the Custodes don't make sense and...well have you seen what Orks do?
Nid shipyards are well within possibility and actually make sense in some situations.
Agreed. It's best to take most of it on face value and not to think about it too hard.
Gellar fields are perhaps the most slowed concept I've encountered in any scifi. Absolute nonsense.
Personally I'm just in it mostly for the power armor and ultra violence.
Why the issue with gellar fields?
Some of the laziest and most ridiculous plot armor I've ever encountered. Basically whoever came up with that wasn't intelligent enough to conceive of a form of warp travel that makes any sense at all.
Then you do better.
I'm not seeing what's particularly ridiculous about it. Or even plot armour-ish. I mean they're better than void shields by far.
Really? You don't see a conundrum in a situation where the the fact that the laws of physics which govern realspace are null and void can be surmounted by projecting a field of realspace reality around a space ship?
No. That's sort of the point. You aren't in a situation where physics is null and void. It's no sillier than forcefields. Oh look I have a magic invisible wall that stops things.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
2020/05/14 20:27:22
Subject: Shield of Baal: Leviathan, is it saying Tyranids can eat Gas Giants?
pm713 wrote: Not making sense isn't a great argument in 40k. The existence of necrons doesn't make sense, the Horus Heresy doesn't make sense, the Custodes don't make sense and...well have you seen what Orks do?
Nid shipyards are well within possibility and actually make sense in some situations.
Agreed. It's best to take most of it on face value and not to think about it too hard.
Gellar fields are perhaps the most slowed concept I've encountered in any scifi. Absolute nonsense.
Personally I'm just in it mostly for the power armor and ultra violence.
Why the issue with gellar fields?
Some of the laziest and most ridiculous plot armor I've ever encountered. Basically whoever came up with that wasn't intelligent enough to conceive of a form of warp travel that makes any sense at all.
Then you do better.
I'm not seeing what's particularly ridiculous about it. Or even plot armour-ish. I mean they're better than void shields by far.
Really? You don't see a conundrum in a situation where the the fact that the laws of physics which govern realspace are null and void can be surmounted by projecting a field of realspace reality around a space ship?
No. That's sort of the point. You aren't in a situation where physics is null and void. It's no sillier than forcefields. Oh look I have a magic invisible wall that stops things.
So the Imperium literally has the technology to create reality. It has figured out the total bit bit rate like prime intellect, and they use this power exclusively to travel through a demon-infested acid trip which by its very existence cannot be brought in to order or augmented in any way.
Brilliant.
Would you like to buy my SPY puts?
2020/05/14 20:29:27
Subject: Shield of Baal: Leviathan, is it saying Tyranids can eat Gas Giants?
pm713 wrote: So, what's your better alternative then?
I'm not required to have one.
It's not me telling the story.
Generally, if you want to be taken seriously, you should have at least SOME idea of how to make it better. Or, at the absolute minimum, demonstrate a good understanding of what you're crititquing.
You have not done either.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
2020/05/14 20:47:49
Subject: Shield of Baal: Leviathan, is it saying Tyranids can eat Gas Giants?
First off, even if you aren't a professional writer, you can still give ideas for what would be better.
Second off, they MAINTAIN realspace within the ship. Not CREATE it.
Think of a balloon, filled with air. This is your gellar field. It is made outside, in the air, and filled with air. It is then put underwater-the water, in this case, represents the Warp. If the balloon is strong enough, it will hold and you'll have a pocket of air inside the water. Likewise, a gellar field maintains the realspace within the Warp. it does NOT just create stuff.
The Gellar Field Device emits an energetic, invisible force field comprised of unknown subatomic particles called a Gellar Field, which essentially maintains a bubble of real space-time around a starship traveling through the Warp using the power of its sublight drives after utilising its Warp-Drive to pierce the veil between the physical universe and the Warp.
Keyword, maintains. Not creates-maintains.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/14 21:03:11
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
2020/05/14 21:06:21
Subject: Shield of Baal: Leviathan, is it saying Tyranids can eat Gas Giants?
pm713 wrote: Not making sense isn't a great argument in 40k. The existence of necrons doesn't make sense, the Horus Heresy doesn't make sense, the Custodes don't make sense and...well have you seen what Orks do?
Nid shipyards are well within possibility and actually make sense in some situations.
Agreed. It's best to take most of it on face value and not to think about it too hard.
Gellar fields are perhaps the most slowed concept I've encountered in any scifi. Absolute nonsense.
Personally I'm just in it mostly for the power armor and ultra violence.
Why the issue with gellar fields?
Some of the laziest and most ridiculous plot armor I've ever encountered. Basically whoever came up with that wasn't intelligent enough to conceive of a form of warp travel that makes any sense at all.
What about it?
I mean, it seems as sensical as it needs to be considering WARP TRAVEL, DAEMONS, FEEDING THE EMPEROR 1000 SOULS A DAY TO MAKE A GALACTIC NORTH STAR etc.
If you cannot post without insulting other users then it's best you stop posting for now.
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
2020/05/14 21:09:37
Subject: Shield of Baal: Leviathan, is it saying Tyranids can eat Gas Giants?
JNAProductions wrote: First off, even if you aren't a professional writer, you can still give ideas for what would be better.
Second off, they MAINTAIN realspace within the ship. Not CREATE it.
Think of a balloon, filled with air. This is your gellar field. It is made outside, in the air, and filled with air. It is then put underwater-the water, in this case, represents the Warp. If the balloon is strong enough, it will hold and you'll have a pocket of air inside the water. Likewise, a gellar field maintains the realspace within the Warp. it does NOT just create stuff.
That's literally the same thing extrapolated a single degree of separation and I can't believe you're actually using this example as your argument. If they have the ability to preserve realspace, they have to first understand what realspace is, intimately., and have the technology to preserve it. It's probably going to be considerably easier to generate reality than to do that, and if they can, why don't they just fill the warp with Gellar fields and create their own permanent webways?
Air and water are just molecules.. They are part of reality. You can't bottle a day and literally stick time and space it on your mantle. Terrible analogy.
It doesn't make sense. And I think you know that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/14 21:10:38
2020/05/14 21:14:14
Subject: Shield of Baal: Leviathan, is it saying Tyranids can eat Gas Giants?
JNAProductions wrote: First off, even if you aren't a professional writer, you can still give ideas for what would be better.
Second off, they MAINTAIN realspace within the ship. Not CREATE it.
Think of a balloon, filled with air. This is your gellar field. It is made outside, in the air, and filled with air. It is then put underwater-the water, in this case, represents the Warp. If the balloon is strong enough, it will hold and you'll have a pocket of air inside the water. Likewise, a gellar field maintains the realspace within the Warp. it does NOT just create stuff.
That's literally the same thing extrapolated a single degree of separation and I can't believe you're actually using this example as your argument. If they have the ability to preserve realspace, they have to first understand what realspace is, intimately., and have the technology to preserve it. It's probably going to be considerably easier to generate reality than to do that, and if they can, why don't they just fill the warp with Gellar fields and create their own permanent webways?
Air and water are just molecules.. They are part of reality. You can't bottle a day and literally stick time and space it on your mantle. Terrible analogy.
It doesn't make sense. And I think you know that.
So, were balloons impossible to make before we had an understanding of molecules? I don't think so.
You can definitely preserve something or maintain it without knowing how it works-hell, that's 95% of the Imperium right there. They keep ancient tech working off rote, not off any understanding.
You are declaring "It's easier to generate reality than to maintain it" with absolutely no factual basis-mostly because we're dealing with fiction. But, bearing that in mind, why is it so hard to accept that it's easier to maintain reality than it is to generate entirely new reality? Because quite honestly, it seems pretty sensible that it's easier to maintain what's already there than to create something entirely anew.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
2020/05/14 21:29:02
Subject: Shield of Baal: Leviathan, is it saying Tyranids can eat Gas Giants?
JNAProductions wrote: First off, even if you aren't a professional writer, you can still give ideas for what would be better.
Second off, they MAINTAIN realspace within the ship. Not CREATE it.
Think of a balloon, filled with air. This is your gellar field. It is made outside, in the air, and filled with air. It is then put underwater-the water, in this case, represents the Warp. If the balloon is strong enough, it will hold and you'll have a pocket of air inside the water. Likewise, a gellar field maintains the realspace within the Warp. it does NOT just create stuff.
That's literally the same thing extrapolated a single degree of separation and I can't believe you're actually using this example as your argument. If they have the ability to preserve realspace, they have to first understand what realspace is, intimately., and have the technology to preserve it. It's probably going to be considerably easier to generate reality than to do that, and if they can, why don't they just fill the warp with Gellar fields and create their own permanent webways?
Air and water are just molecules.. They are part of reality. You can't bottle a day and literally stick time and space it on your mantle. Terrible analogy.
It doesn't make sense. And I think you know that.
So, were balloons impossible to make before we had an understanding of molecules? I don't think so.
You can definitely preserve something or maintain it without knowing how it works-hell, that's 95% of the Imperium right there. They keep ancient tech working off rote, not off any understanding.
You are declaring "It's easier to generate reality than to maintain it" with absolutely no factual basis-mostly because we're dealing with fiction. But, bearing that in mind, why is it so hard to accept that it's easier to maintain reality than it is to generate entirely new reality? Because quite honestly, it seems pretty sensible that it's easier to maintain what's already there than to create something entirely anew.
No, but we still don't intimately understand molecules ( that's why we have the LHC) and at no point was it possible to preserve time and space in a balloon.
The problem with Gellar fields is that they are logically irresolvable. Either realspace works in the warp, or it does not. No parameters of logic allow for both. Since space ships themselves are realspace entities, and gellar fields are just realspace which is just...well, realspace,and realspace doesn't/cannot exist in the warp, what excuse me, would be the point of projecting realspace in a realspace vessel inside a system where realspace conditions are not possible? Why bother even having a Gellar field at all if the space ship is just realspace anyway?
Either Gellar fields don't make sense, or the warp doesn't. Pick one.
Surely you an at least follow that? It's a logical fallacy.
And frankly I don't particularly care that it is.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Schrodinger's cat got your tongue?
That Joke was too good for this forum.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/05/14 21:41:45
2020/05/14 22:06:58
Subject: Shield of Baal: Leviathan, is it saying Tyranids can eat Gas Giants?
Either Gellar fields don't make sense, or the warp doesn't. Pick one.
I thought the whole point of the Warp was that it did NOT make sense! Hence why you go all kinds of nuts if you even get a vision of it let alone take a step into it. Or at least it makes no sense to those who are still from "realspace".
Anyway a gellerfield is just a shield that lets you fly though hell without going insane and having demons shred your body and consume your soul.
Either Gellar fields don't make sense, or the warp doesn't. Pick one.
I thought the whole point of the Warp was that it did NOT make sense! Hence why you go all kinds of nuts if you even get a vision of it let alone take a step into it. Or at least it makes no sense to those who are still from "realspace".
Anyway a gellerfield is just a shield that lets you fly though hell without going insane and having demons shred your body and consume your soul.
In the lore, Gellar Fields make travelling the warp possible. According to the writers, who everyone seems to believe are actually....good, if they didn't exist, space ships would turn into giant penises and start playing the banjo or whatever as soon as they entered the warp.
2020/05/14 22:17:30
Subject: Re:Shield of Baal: Leviathan, is it saying Tyranids can eat Gas Giants?
Realspace and the warp have been shown to exist within each other. The warp energy that fills the Warp when in realspace can be in the form of Daemons or in the form of psychic phenomena such as what psychic powers are. Warp energy can even be converted to real matter such as in the case of wraithbone. However if not stabilized or sustained in some form, warp energy seems to be transient in realspace, hence why daemons need sacrifices, rituals, or warp storms to keep going.
Realspace stuff can be thrown into the warp with D-weaponry. Being in the warp is generally not conducive to life though the predatory entities in the warp like to tear apart and consume realspace things. Also with enough time, realspace matter and energy seems to dissolve into warp energy if in the warp.
The Gellar field keeps the two separate, and all that nasty warp energy from leaking into the area of the ship or inside the ship. We know that psychic energy in the 40K paradigm can do things like deflect objects and other forms of energy, as evidenced by all the various psychic powers and rune armor that provide this kind of protection. The Gellar field's exact workings are never explicitly given but seem to utilize similar principles to repel warp energy. The warp isn't entirely rule-less as the Eldar have built their entire technological base around it, so there must be consistent reproducible effects. It's just that the Warp operates under a different set of rules from realspace laws of physics, and some of those rules are like the "rules of magic" in other fantasy worlds, like the law of contagion for example.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/14 22:18:28
2020/05/14 22:34:03
Subject: Re:Shield of Baal: Leviathan, is it saying Tyranids can eat Gas Giants?
Iracundus wrote: Realspace and the warp have been shown to exist within each other. The warp energy that fills the Warp when in realspace can be in the form of Daemons or in the form of psychic phenomena such as what psychic powers are. Warp energy can even be converted to real matter such as in the case of wraithbone. However if not stabilized or sustained in some form, warp energy seems to be transient in realspace, hence why daemons need sacrifices, rituals, or warp storms to keep going.
Realspace stuff can be thrown into the warp with D-weaponry. Being in the warp is generally not conducive to life though the predatory entities in the warp like to tear apart and consume realspace things. Also with enough time, realspace matter and energy seems to dissolve into warp energy if in the warp.
The Gellar field keeps the two separate, and all that nasty warp energy from leaking into the area of the ship or inside the ship. We know that psychic energy in the 40K paradigm can do things like deflect objects and other forms of energy, as evidenced by all the various psychic powers and rune armor that provide this kind of protection. The Gellar field's exact workings are never explicitly given but seem to utilize similar principles to repel warp energy. The warp isn't entirely rule-less as the Eldar have built their entire technological base around it, so there must be consistent reproducible effects. It's just that the Warp operates under a different set of rules from realspace laws of physics, and some of those rules are like the "rules of magic" in other fantasy worlds, like the law of contagion for example.
Granted, and this is a good post, but this still does not account for the equation outlined in my previous post, and would need to conform to it. Either the warp can be manipulated/harnessed/repurposed and used to create order, or Gellar fields don't make sense. Cannot be both. I prefer the idea that the warp is just a space governed by different physical parameters than realspace as opposed to just a kind of chaotic soup where anything goes.
Webways exist in the warp, so there's already a precedent for this idea. Gellar fields are very silly as far as ideas go. They're kind of the flux capacitors of 40K really.
2020/05/14 22:40:56
Subject: Shield of Baal: Leviathan, is it saying Tyranids can eat Gas Giants?
My previous post described exactly how the energy of the warp already is channeled, repurposed, and manipulated. Warp energy is one of the forms of energy in the 40k universe and seems interconvertible with real space energy and matter, within certain rules and limits.
2020/05/14 22:54:25
Subject: Shield of Baal: Leviathan, is it saying Tyranids can eat Gas Giants?
Iracundus wrote: My previous post described exactly how the energy of the warp already is channeled, repurposed, and manipulated. Warp energy is one of the forms of energy in the 40k universe and seems interconvertible with real space energy and matter, within certain rules and limits.
That begs the question though; why doesn't the imperium simply use their Gellar field Tech to create its own webways in the warp? Why doesn't it create Gellar highways?
And honestly I can't think of an Imperium example of harnessing warp energy well. I mean even the astronomicon doesn't really use warp energy on any level per se--certainly this isn't comparable to wraithbone which is literally repurposed warp energy....basically warp metal.
And you would still need to explain how Gellar fields kind of...what--filter, or act as buffer between warp space and realspace, which would still require you to explain why a realspace entity subject to the laws of material physics needs a field to generate more of itself in the warp where real space parameters do not matter/do not work.
There is no way out of that logical trap. It's circular. An infinite loop.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/14 23:24:05
2020/05/15 00:12:42
Subject: Shield of Baal: Leviathan, is it saying Tyranids can eat Gas Giants?
I get the feeling you are not really reading responses and are just repeating the same points over and over.
The Imperium doesn’t really use warp energy in any subtle way because the Imperium doesn’t seem to know how to. It may make use of large quantities of it in an uncontrolled way like with a Vortex missile or large quantities in a crude way like flaring vast quantities of it with the Astronomicon, or it can repel things such as with wards or a Gellar field. The Imperium does not have the skill nor technique for making permanent matter from the warp. The Emperor was the last apparent real researcher into things like creating an Imperial Webway but since then, virtually any warp related research is off limits so the Imperium makes no progress.
No one else but you is seeing any requirement for a Gellar field to create real space. It has been stated multiple times by multiple people that the Gellar field acts to keep the separation between the ship and the warp. That is what the hull of a submarine does. Keep the water out and the air in. The alternative of letting the water/warp flood inside is not conducive to the continued living of the people on board. Humans can not breathe warp energy and warp entities can manifest in areas saturated with warp energy, which is exactly what can happen if a ship’s Gellar field flickers or leaks.
You keep saying there is a logic trap or infinite loop but nobody is else is seeing any such contradiction, because there isn’t one.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/05/15 00:55:01
2020/05/15 00:55:58
Subject: Shield of Baal: Leviathan, is it saying Tyranids can eat Gas Giants?
Iracundus wrote: I get the feeling you are not really reading responses and are just repeating the same points over and over.
The Imperium doesn’t really use warp energy in any subtle way because the Imperium doesn’t seem to know how to. It may make use of large quantities of it in an uncontrolled way like with a Vortex missile or large quantities in a crude way like flaring vast quantities of it with the Astronomicon, or it can repel things such as with wards or a Gellar field. The Imperium does not have the skill nor technique for making permanent matter from the warp.
No one else but you is seeing any requirement for a Gellar field to create real space. It has been stated multiple times by multiple people that the Gellar field acts to keep the separation between the ship and the warp. That is what the hull of a submarine does. Keep the water out and the air in. The alternative of letting the water/warp flood inside is not conducive to the continued living of the people on board. Humans can not breathe warp energy and warp entities can manifest in areas saturated with warp energy, which is exactly what can happen if a ship’s Gellar field flickers or leaks.
You keep saying there is a logic trap or infinite loop but nobody is else is seeing any such contradiction, because there isn’t one.
Yes there is. You're simply not comprehending it. Appealing to popularity isn't an argument. If it were, Mcdonalds and Ariana Grande would be objectively the pinnacles of Gastronomy and Music. People generally are not very intelligent. They eat tide pods and hang plastic testicles foam the back of their tow bars.
A Gellar field is nothing like the hull of a submarine, it doesn't work that way, and the relationship between it is not comparable to that between steel and water (or whatever metal submarine hulls are made of).Warp energy is not analogous to water in that comparison. The only way it could work the way you just described is if two conditions changed:
A) There is a third type of prime matter that is not neither realspace nor Warp Energy, and this is generated by Gellar Fields
B) The warp or Gellar fields would need to start acting like physical properties which exist in realspace and would need to start observing physical relationships observed in realspace when interacting.
Since Neither is the case, we are left with the original conundrum--or perhaps paradox..
And that is, Gellar fields generate a pocket of realspace (This is in fact how they work according to the lore, not an issue of contention) either within or around spacecraft. Don't take it up with me. Take it up with the Wiki, which explicitly states:
The Gellar Field Device emits an energetic, invisible force field comprised of unknown subatomic particles called a Gellar Field, which essentially maintains a bubble of real space-time around a starship traveling through the Warp using the power of its sublight drives after utilising its Warp-Drive to pierce the veil between the physical universe and the Warp.
So in fact I was right all along. Gellar Fields literally do generate real space, which means the imperium has the power to generate reality.
Let's continue:
The concept here is that Gellar Fields create a bubble of real space around vessels which allows them to travel through the warp, which is supposedly a dimension in which real space (and time) doesn't make sense, and the protocols and laws of real space reality are not observed.
Space crafts are real space entities.
So A gellar field creates a real space field around a real space object inside the warp in order to protect a real space object from the forces of the warp which do not observe real space anyway. It is, to put it simply, doubling up on uselessness.
As I said originally, either the warp is a space where real space physics work, or it is not. There is no logical basis for the warp to make exceptions to it's own systems in order to ultimately oblige spacecraft by accommodating the very set of physical rules it not only rejects but is the antithesis of--That is, realspace, and realspace objects. Why for the love of God would you expect, given this set of parameters, a real space bubble to do anything at all? It is not possible for both not-warp rules and real space rules to exists concomitantly in any capacity because they contravene one another utterly by definition. If the warp makes exceptions to observe real space, it is not the warp, and its lore doesn't make sense. If Gellar fields do not work, the warp does make sense and Gellar fields are redundant/stupid. Both cannot logically resolve.
Either the warp lore is stupid, or the Gellar field lore is stupid. Pick one.
Genius 40K engineers:
"We can't travel through warp space because the laws of hysics don't apply'.
"I think I have a solution to that problem'.
'Oh yeah?"
"Yeah. Lets...let's generate a field of real space reality observing real space physics around space ships".
"Good plan. Should be fine. Glad we got to the bottom of it".
And that's it. Well, there is a third option, but pointing it out will probably get me banned.
This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2020/05/15 02:00:25
