Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
You realise we have topics now that complain about the game basically being over and decided by turn 2 because the lethality and lack of terrain is to extreme.
the length of play time is directly connected to how enjoyable the game play is.
: Less intense startup. The cost of starting an army is high, reducing the model count of standard play allows new players to more easily enter into the hobby and for players to pick up new armies.
So....that's why GW just jacked prices across the board...perhaps because they know they might sell less models. does the land raider kit that has not changed in over a decade need to cost double what it used to?
3: Less crowded board. The board is just too small for many armies right now;
That's a direct result of 8th giving units huge movement increases., all the previous editions were tied into the standard 4X6 table with movmenet locked into 6" increments. the fastest non flyer unit on the table used to be eldar jet bikes that could move 24" at flat out speed and an additional d6 in the assault phase. but could do nothing else but move. everything else was tied into the 6-12" range.
GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear/MCP
he length of play time is directly connected to how enjoyable the game play is.
I dont think so. I have had very unenjoyable games that lasted 40min. And I watched 1+hour games that were so engaging, that the players and us watching didn't even notice that the game spilled over in to second hour of playing.
But of course if the game is unfun, it is better for it to be short then long.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
I think this is a good move. 2000 points is a LOT of models these days, it must be a significant barrier to entry for youngsters, for the price and also the time to paint and assemble everything. The time to deploy and move around all of those models also means you'd struggle to play more than one game in a session, so if you get hammered that game then that's probably not going to be a great experience.
Compare to an online shooter game where you can play 5 or 6 games in an hour. You might get trashed once or twice but probably won't every time. You can't just try again immediately in a 2k point 40k game, so you better hope it's balanced and fun for both people
Here is why:
Its part of their lazy chapter approved "typewriter-reset" stratagy INSTEAD of fixing fundamentally flawed rules for models, they just lower and lower and lower points as years go on. Prime example Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage: 340 points at the start. And now 230 points.
And also, as others have pointed out, right out of the gate, the points raise does NOT seem fair.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/06/08 10:41:36
You realise we have topics now that complain about the game basically being over and decided by turn 2 because the lethality and lack of terrain is to extreme.
the length of play time is directly connected to how enjoyable the game play is.
The game length in time and turn's aren't same though. T2 game ending when getting that sorted out isn't fun. T6 ending where you finish game same speed or even faster than T2 is.
And even then T2 ending at shorter time is still better than T2 with more minutes spent.
I just wonder why+17% for primaries and +50% for chaos cultists.
9th doesn't address the lethality of 8th at all. It just seem to want to nerf hordes and favour elite units.
Maybe the playtesters think there's enough D2 weapon tech to warrant it. I've often proposed that hordes need an existence tax which was left out in 7th. There is a lot of benefits to a huge number of cheap models. Look at all the marine changes to TRY to remedy this.
According to the rumors, the average price hike is 25%.
This would mean that the intercessors were buffed...
I can think of many reasons for this, but none of them truly convinces me.
- Troops no longer pay a troop "tax" because they are no longer tired to CP generation. Ok fair, but then the cultist cost raise becomes even more of an headscratcher.
- They wanted a clean and round point cost for them since they are meant to be the measurement stick for the game. Ok, seems fair... but then the 25% cost hike doesn't seem correct.
- It's a GW marketing ploy to make intercessors ultra OP and sell loads of them.... yeah no, they are the kit with the highest point to $ in the SM arsenal I think and almost every player already has quite a lot of them.
- New morale rules make elite infantry less appealing and so they see a general cost reduction? Maybe but doesn't sound really convincing.
- New cover rules advantage light infantry over heavy infantry? Yeah, maye this is the only one that seems to work.
Snake Tortoise wrote: I think this is a good move. 2000 points is a LOT of models these days, it must be a significant barrier to entry for youngsters, for the price and also the time to paint and assemble everything. The time to deploy and move around all of those models also means you'd struggle to play more than one game in a session, so if you get hammered that game then that's probably not going to be a great experience.
Compare to an online shooter game where you can play 5 or 6 games in an hour. You might get trashed once or twice but probably won't every time. You can't just try again immediately in a 2k point 40k game, so you better hope it's balanced and fun for both people
Video games are an entire different animal and not in any way comparable. DnD made that mistake with 4th ed trying to tap into the MMORPG crowd and failed miserably with one of the worst editions of the game ever made.
I'd love less models on the table.
I just wonder why+17% for primaries and +50% for chaos cultists.
9th doesn't address the lethality of 8th at all. It just seem to want to nerf hordes and favour elite units.
Ever play horus heresy?
everything is cheaper, way cheaper and better performing. my HH force is the largest i have ever fielded at 2k and it still only takes about 2 hours to play a 2k game a full 5+ turns...and it gets silly fun somtimes like vulkan pimp slapping my warhound titan to death.
It isn't just the model count, the mechanics of the edition play a big part.
GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear/MCP
Spoletta wrote: According to the rumors, the average price hike is 25%.
This would mean that the intercessors were buffed...
I can think of many reasons for this, but none of them truly convinces me.
- Troops no longer pay a troop "tax" because they are no longer tired to CP generation. Ok fair, but then the cultist cost raise becomes even more of an headscratcher.
- They wanted a clean and round point cost for them since they are meant to be the measurement stick for the game. Ok, seems fair... but then the 25% cost hike doesn't seem correct.
- It's a GW marketing ploy to make intercessors ultra OP and sell loads of them.... yeah no, they are the kit with the highest point to $ in the SM arsenal I think and almost every player already has quite a lot of them.
- New morale rules make elite infantry less appealing and so they see a general cost reduction? Maybe but doesn't sound really convincing.
- New cover rules advantage light infantry over heavy infantry? Yeah, maye this is the only one that seems to work.
Or:
Intercessor guns now cost more inflating the model cost
Their profile gets errata'd to remove some special rules
The points shown are from the v3 codex which is different again
Cultists are receiving a minor rules buff/tweak to compensate
We literally know nothing about the new points system or any altered units for 8th and people are crying how "it's not fair". People need to let go of 8th, stop comparing partial pictures of a game we've not seen and applying it to the existing framework of one that's about to become obsolete.
Having all models properly split into weapon/body cost would be a good thing IMO. Those assault bolters would be much more interesting if they were free while the other two variants cost points.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Spoletta wrote: According to the rumors, the average price hike is 25%.
This would mean that the intercessors were buffed...
I can think of many reasons for this, but none of them truly convinces me.
- Troops no longer pay a troop "tax" because they are no longer tired to CP generation. Ok fair, but then the cultist cost raise becomes even more of an headscratcher.
- They wanted a clean and round point cost for them since they are meant to be the measurement stick for the game. Ok, seems fair... but then the 25% cost hike doesn't seem correct.
- It's a GW marketing ploy to make intercessors ultra OP and sell loads of them.... yeah no, they are the kit with the highest point to $ in the SM arsenal I think and almost every player already has quite a lot of them.
- New morale rules make elite infantry less appealing and so they see a general cost reduction? Maybe but doesn't sound really convincing.
- New cover rules advantage light infantry over heavy infantry? Yeah, maye this is the only one that seems to work.
Or:
Intercessor guns now cost more inflating the model cost
Their profile gets errata'd to remove some special rules
The points shown are from the v3 codex which is different again
Cultists are receiving a minor rules buff/tweak to compensate
We literally know nothing about the new points system or any altered units for 8th and people are crying how "it's not fair". People need to let go of 8th, stop comparing partial pictures of a game we've not seen and applying it to the existing framework of one that's about to become obsolete.
Maybee they get SV 5+ and traits? or something else entirely?
I do wonder though were that leaves guardsmen.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Snake Tortoise wrote: I think this is a good move. 2000 points is a LOT of models these days, it must be a significant barrier to entry for youngsters, for the price and also the time to paint and assemble everything. The time to deploy and move around all of those models also means you'd struggle to play more than one game in a session, so if you get hammered that game then that's probably not going to be a great experience.
Compare to an online shooter game where you can play 5 or 6 games in an hour. You might get trashed once or twice but probably won't every time. You can't just try again immediately in a 2k point 40k game, so you better hope it's balanced and fun for both people
Video games are an entire different animal and not in any way comparable. DnD made that mistake with 4th ed trying to tap into the MMORPG crowd and failed miserably with one of the worst editions of the game ever made.
I'd love less models on the table.
I just wonder why+17% for primaries and +50% for chaos cultists.
9th doesn't address the lethality of 8th at all. It just seem to want to nerf hordes and favour elite units.
...and it gets silly fun somtimes like vulkan pimp slapping my warhound titan to death.
As the Lord of Drakes should
I am interested to see how troops are treated across the board.
Might be something like this;
Battle Sisters, Wyches, Kabalites, Skitarii could go either way.
Boys, Grots, Firewarriors, & Guardsmen could be going up(?).
Tacs & CSM should go down(not much tho).
(conscripts & other cannon fodder I have no idea whether +/- is warranted)
since cultists are 100% for sure going up(a ton) & Intercessors are (obviously) the new standard we might see a completely new order to which cheap troops are which(in relation to other factions).
Spoletta wrote: According to the rumors, the average price hike is 25%.
This would mean that the intercessors were buffed...
I can think of many reasons for this, but none of them truly convinces me.
- Troops no longer pay a troop "tax" because they are no longer tired to CP generation. Ok fair, but then the cultist cost raise becomes even more of an headscratcher.
- They wanted a clean and round point cost for them since they are meant to be the measurement stick for the game. Ok, seems fair... but then the 25% cost hike doesn't seem correct.
- It's a GW marketing ploy to make intercessors ultra OP and sell loads of them.... yeah no, they are the kit with the highest point to $ in the SM arsenal I think and almost every player already has quite a lot of them.
- New morale rules make elite infantry less appealing and so they see a general cost reduction? Maybe but doesn't sound really convincing.
- New cover rules advantage light infantry over heavy infantry? Yeah, maye this is the only one that seems to work.
Or:
Intercessor guns now cost more inflating the model cost
Their profile gets errata'd to remove some special rules
The points shown are from the v3 codex which is different again
Cultists are receiving a minor rules buff/tweak to compensate
We literally know nothing about the new points system or any altered units for 8th and people are crying how "it's not fair". People need to let go of 8th, stop comparing partial pictures of a game we've not seen and applying it to the existing framework of one that's about to become obsolete.
Maybee they get SV 5+ and traits? or something else entirely?
I do wonder though were that leaves guardsmen.
I'd not be surprised if cultists was expanded to encompass renegade guardspeople, which would easily explain a bump on the save. Might be mis-remembering but aren't cultists 1" faster than guard infantry, which on a smaller board might be worth more.
- New cover rules advantage light infantry over heavy infantry? Yeah, maye this is the only one that seems to work.
So far the terrain rules they have mentioned have been basically ITC 1st floor blocks LOS level. This favours smaller units as they are easier to hide completely.
Intercessor guns now cost more inflating the model cost
That would require them to have options somewhere. Weapons that are basically non upgradeable are 0 cost regardless of power. See 0 pts volcano cannons...
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/06/09 07:16:30
That would require them to have options somewhere. Weapons that are basically non upgradeable are 0 cost regardless of power. See 0 pts volcano cannons...
The game is inconsistent on the matter. A foetid bloat-drone's plague probe is non-upgradable, only exists for that one unit, and still costs a big lump of points.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/09 07:40:32
- New cover rules advantage light infantry over heavy infantry? Yeah, maye this is the only one that seems to work.
So far the terrain rules they have mentioned have been basically ITC 1st floor blocks LOS level. This favours smaller units as they are easier to hide completely.
Intercessor guns now cost more inflating the model cost
That would require them to have options somewhere. Weapons that are basically non upgradeable are 0 cost regardless of power. See 0 pts volcano cannons...
You do realise intercessors currently have 3 different weapons, each with different points values right?
You realise we have topics now that complain about the game basically being over and decided by turn 2 because the lethality and lack of terrain is to extreme.
the length of play time is directly connected to how enjoyable the game play is.
The game length in time and turn's aren't same though. T2 game ending when getting that sorted out isn't fun. T6 ending where you finish game same speed or even faster than T2 is.
And even then T2 ending at shorter time is still better than T2 with more minutes spent.
Well I have strong doubts GW is going to change much about how alfa strike is a potent tactic in w40k. Sure maybe it is going to change, and happen less often or not at all on turn 1, and move to turn 2-3. But this only means that turn 1 is going to be an extended form of deployment, if neither of the armies can properly engage each other.
In the end the game lenght is a secondary thing, even in places where you pay for the table per hour. The game can be one turn, or just my turn, and if I win it is going to enjoyable to me. And probably not very enjoyable to the person who won't get to do much.
I am still having my doubts about peoples optimis, with the game becoming smaller. People that own 2000pts armies are not going to be very happy, that they have left over units or non optimised lists at the new 2000pts. and soon we end up seeing 2100 or what ever points are going to be close to the old 2000pts. I wish, I am wrong on this though.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Spoletta wrote: According to the rumors, the average price hike is 25%.
This would mean that the intercessors were buffed...
I can think of many reasons for this, but none of them truly convinces me.
- Troops no longer pay a troop "tax" because they are no longer tired to CP generation. Ok fair, but then the cultist cost raise becomes even more of an headscratcher.
- They wanted a clean and round point cost for them since they are meant to be the measurement stick for the game. Ok, seems fair... but then the 25% cost hike doesn't seem correct.
- It's a GW marketing ploy to make intercessors ultra OP and sell loads of them.... yeah no, they are the kit with the highest point to $ in the SM arsenal I think and almost every player already has quite a lot of them.
- New morale rules make elite infantry less appealing and so they see a general cost reduction? Maybe but doesn't sound really convincing.
- New cover rules advantage light infantry over heavy infantry? Yeah, maye this is the only one that seems to work.
Or:
Intercessor guns now cost more inflating the model cost
Their profile gets errata'd to remove some special rules
The points shown are from the v3 codex which is different again
Cultists are receiving a minor rules buff/tweak to compensate
We literally know nothing about the new points system or any altered units for 8th and people are crying how "it's not fair". People need to let go of 8th, stop comparing partial pictures of a game we've not seen and applying it to the existing framework of one that's about to become obsolete.
Maybee they get SV 5+ and traits? or something else entirely?
I do wonder though were that leaves guardsmen.
I'd not be surprised if cultists was expanded to encompass renegade guardspeople, which would easily explain a bump on the save. Might be mis-remembering but aren't cultists 1" faster than guard infantry, which on a smaller board might be worth more.
Currently guardsmen and cultists are identical except guardsmen have a better save (5+ vs cultist 6+) and leadership (6, 7 for sergeant vs 5, 6 for champion). If cultists are now considered traitor guard that would be annoying, they are not the same thing.
You realise we have topics now that complain about the game basically being over and decided by turn 2 because the lethality and lack of terrain is to extreme.
the length of play time is directly connected to how enjoyable the game play is.
The game length in time and turn's aren't same though. T2 game ending when getting that sorted out isn't fun. T6 ending where you finish game same speed or even faster than T2 is.
And even then T2 ending at shorter time is still better than T2 with more minutes spent.
Well I have strong doubts GW is going to change much about how alfa strike is a potent tactic in w40k. Sure maybe it is going to change, and happen less often or not at all on turn 1, and move to turn 2-3. But this only means that turn 1 is going to be an extended form of deployment, if neither of the armies can properly engage each other.
In the end the game lenght is a secondary thing, even in places where you pay for the table per hour. The game can be one turn, or just my turn, and if I win it is going to enjoyable to me. And probably not very enjoyable to the person who won't get to do much.
I am still having my doubts about peoples optimis, with the game becoming smaller. People that own 2000pts armies are not going to be very happy, that they have left over units or non optimised lists at the new 2000pts. and soon we end up seeing 2100 or what ever points are going to be close to the old 2000pts. I wish, I am wrong on this though.
If I played a game and it was over at the end of the first battle round, or first player turn (or even the second for that matter) I would very much doubt that I would have enjoyed it regardless of whether I won or lost. Horses for courses I suppose.
I've had games where I've won by a sizable margin and the game wasn't very fun, and I've had games where I've lost on the last dice roll of the game. I definietly enjoy the latter far more than the former.
We are lacking the context to make an accurate guess of whether or not this will be a good change. But I'm doubting 9th edition will change things up as much as people are hoping for. Games Workshop seem pretty happy with how the game is standing right now, and are convinced there aren't any real balance issues that need addressing. Really, the new edition stuff is likely marketing talk to convince doubters that the game will be fine. But again, we don't have enough information to judge. We can only speculate with what we know right now.
a) GW doesn't care about balance b) that's why they are doing changes now. They want do the periodic shape up to make people buy new models. Current balance isn't worry.
tneva82 wrote: a) GW doesn't care about balance b) that's why they are doing changes now. They want do the periodic shape up to make people buy new models. Current balance isn't worry.
Likely true. Convince people that they'll be able to compete, and they're more likely to feel comfortable in investing their time and money. Games Workshop are attempting to instil confidence in those who doubt the new edition will be great. Those who already think it's great are going to spend money either way, so no need ton convince them nearly as much.
If I played a game and it was over at the end of the first battle round, or first player turn (or even the second for that matter) I would very much doubt that I would have enjoyed it regardless of whether I won or lost. Horses for courses I suppose.
I've had games where I've won by a sizable margin and the game wasn't very fun, and I've had games where I've lost on the last dice roll of the game. I definietly enjoy the latter far more than the former.
In over 2 years of playing I won zero games, drew 5 and got one disqualification of opponent by not showing up. Any win is good for me, moot thing anyway, considering are shop closed and there is no where to play.
Those who already think it's great are going to spend money either way, so no need ton convince them nearly as much.
True. animals compet against each other, and no one has to convince them about it. I just hope that GW doesn't go all crazy, and start making arbitrary point changes for armies that won't have a codex in 6-12 months time, to adjust point costs, but not rules, to books that have a fresh 9th codex. May as well restard 8th then, and just roll back CA and FAQ. would be the same thing.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Jidmah wrote: Having all models properly split into weapon/body cost would be a good thing IMO. Those assault bolters would be much more interesting if they were free while the other two variants cost points.
You realise we have topics now that complain about the game basically being over and decided by turn 2 because the lethality and lack of terrain is to extreme.
the length of play time is directly connected to how enjoyable the game play is.
: Less intense startup. The cost of starting an army is high, reducing the model count of standard play allows new players to more easily enter into the hobby and for players to pick up new armies.
So....that's why GW just jacked prices across the board...perhaps because they know they might sell less models. does the land raider kit that has not changed in over a decade need to cost double what it used to?
3: Less crowded board. The board is just too small for many armies right now;
That's a direct result of 8th giving units huge movement increases., all the previous editions were tied into the standard 4X6 table with movmenet locked into 6" increments. the fastest non flyer unit on the table used to be eldar jet bikes that could move 24" at flat out speed and an additional d6 in the assault phase. but could do nothing else but move. everything else was tied into the 6-12" range.
It isn't just the movement increases. Prices have gone down by incredibly large amounts for many, many, many units that used to cost far more than they do now.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
tneva82 wrote: a) GW doesn't care about balance b) that's why they are doing changes now. They want do the periodic shape up to make people buy new models. Current balance isn't worry.
Right, which is why we're seeing point increases across the board. See, if points increase, and you need fewer models to play a 2k game, then GW will...make more...money?
You know it's really weird, sometimes when I fit ideas into my head and every single one of them has to end with "....because GW cynically wants to sell more models" I get this weird, dissonant pain in my head, and I have to hold my temples and scream "BECAUSE GW CYNICALLY WANTS TO SELL MORE MODELS" over and over again to get it to stop.
Like when they do something that would seem to result in GW selling fewer models. Do you ever get that?
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Martel732 wrote: Marines were 30 ppm in 2nd and -3 AP weapons were common and had high RoF. Ludicrous.
I'd like to see a return to 30pt marines (primaris anyway) I still think the 20pt intercessor is too cheap. It would give a lot more room for variety for other models. IIRC orks were 12pt and gretchin 5pt in 2nd (could be wrong though.)
I don't remember seeing all that many high ROF or AP -3 stuff in 2nd though. I think compared to 8th there were far fewer shots fired per model. High RoF had sustained fire dice, so could jam, every model in a unit had to shoot the same target, heavy weapons couldn't fire if they moved and models could only "see" in a 90 degree arc in front of them.
I think many of these rules would improve 8th by reducing the lethality of shooting (except the 90 arc, I wouldn't want that to come back!).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/09 13:57:42
6000 World Eaters/Khorne 
