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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Catulle wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
Catulle wrote:
 catbarf wrote:
Repeating what I said in the other thread: This makes hordes more viable, but MSU is still A-OK. A five-man Ld8 squad can lose 3 members and still only fails on a 6.

Kill four out of five, and the survivor has a 33% chance of failing the test, and then a 33% chance of fleeing. So killing 4/5 members of a squad results in just an 11% chance of the last one fleeing- which is actually lower than the current chance, where the last guy would flee 33% of the time.

And this was supposed to make MSU less attractive?

Edit: Whoops, I completely left out the one model automatically fleeing from failing the test. Killing 4/5 members has the same 33% chance of the last one fleeing as currently. Killing 3/5 means a 22% chance of one fleeing, and a 11% chance of both fleeing. Current probability at 3 casualties is 17% chance of losing one, 17% chance of losing both. So... still not really a nerf to MSU.


The wyvern alone killed Guardians. Who thought 24 shots, +1 to hit, no LOS, reroll wounds was a good idea?

Spoiler: the playtester ruinning the ITC. Can't spot Nazi knight iconography or gaping design issues!


What's giving the +1 to hit?

I'm not touching that second part with a barge pole.


Stratagem. It's in the WarComm article, with glee

Ironically that strategum makes no sence as it requires the unit to have LoS to the target and a Wyvern aint that hard to kill.

More egregious ia the damn Leman Russ strategum Russ now get 12 shots vrs vehicals and 12 shots vrs Hordes and minimum 6 shots avarage of 8 against 6+ units FFS at this point those thing better damn well be over 200-250 points each.
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

It's a Reece article. It's not supposed to make sense.
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




Ice_can wrote:
Catulle wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
Catulle wrote:
 catbarf wrote:
Repeating what I said in the other thread: This makes hordes more viable, but MSU is still A-OK. A five-man Ld8 squad can lose 3 members and still only fails on a 6.

Kill four out of five, and the survivor has a 33% chance of failing the test, and then a 33% chance of fleeing. So killing 4/5 members of a squad results in just an 11% chance of the last one fleeing- which is actually lower than the current chance, where the last guy would flee 33% of the time.

And this was supposed to make MSU less attractive?

Edit: Whoops, I completely left out the one model automatically fleeing from failing the test. Killing 4/5 members has the same 33% chance of the last one fleeing as currently. Killing 3/5 means a 22% chance of one fleeing, and a 11% chance of both fleeing. Current probability at 3 casualties is 17% chance of losing one, 17% chance of losing both. So... still not really a nerf to MSU.


The wyvern alone killed Guardians. Who thought 24 shots, +1 to hit, no LOS, reroll wounds was a good idea?

Spoiler: the playtester ruinning the ITC. Can't spot Nazi knight iconography or gaping design issues!


What's giving the +1 to hit?

I'm not touching that second part with a barge pole.


Stratagem. It's in the WarComm article, with glee

Ironically that strategum makes no sence as it requires the unit to have LoS to the target and a Wyvern aint that hard to kill.

More egregious ia the damn Leman Russ strategum Russ now get 12 shots vrs vehicals and 12 shots vrs Hordes and minimum 6 shots avarage of 8 against 6+ units FFS at this point those thing better damn well be over 200-250 points each.


Maybe the terrain will save us...
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Catulle wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
Spoiler:
Catulle wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
Catulle wrote:
 catbarf wrote:
Repeating what I said in the other thread: This makes hordes more viable, but MSU is still A-OK. A five-man Ld8 squad can lose 3 members and still only fails on a 6.

Kill four out of five, and the survivor has a 33% chance of failing the test, and then a 33% chance of fleeing. So killing 4/5 members of a squad results in just an 11% chance of the last one fleeing- which is actually lower than the current chance, where the last guy would flee 33% of the time.

And this was supposed to make MSU less attractive?

Edit: Whoops, I completely left out the one model automatically fleeing from failing the test. Killing 4/5 members has the same 33% chance of the last one fleeing as currently. Killing 3/5 means a 22% chance of one fleeing, and a 11% chance of both fleeing. Current probability at 3 casualties is 17% chance of losing one, 17% chance of losing both. So... still not really a nerf to MSU.


The wyvern alone killed Guardians. Who thought 24 shots, +1 to hit, no LOS, reroll wounds was a good idea?

Spoiler: the playtester ruinning the ITC. Can't spot Nazi knight iconography or gaping design issues!


What's giving the +1 to hit?

I'm not touching that second part with a barge pole.


Stratagem. It's in the WarComm article, with glee

Ironically that strategum makes no sence as it requires the unit to have LoS to the target and a Wyvern aint that hard to kill.

More egregious ia the damn Leman Russ strategum Russ now get 12 shots vrs vehicals and 12 shots vrs Hordes and minimum 6 shots avarage of 8 against 6+ units FFS at this point those thing better damn well be over 200-250 points each.


Maybe the terrain will save us...

Unless your a LoW and can Never benifit from Cover because "GW balance" while the Three russes on the otherside benefiting from terrain Nuclear Alpha strike you of the table.

Add this to Spacemarines and quite frankly It's feeling like I'd be better of trying to find HH games for my armies as they would be less broken than this Pro Marines, Pro sisters, Pro Guard,Pro GSC? Editions where certain units look like they will need points drops for 8th not increases to be playable.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




My hope with this rule is that units that ignore morale do not ignore combat attrition. It always bugged me that there were just units that completely ignored morale.
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

Ice_can wrote:

Unless your a LoW and can Never benifit from Cover because "GW balance" while the Three russes on the otherside benefiting from terrain Nuclear Alpha strike you of the table.

In this case, "LoW" actually means Knight or something similar...because so far the terrain rules really only would affect things like that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/24 21:08:28


 
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





That's where you reserve your knights and blast those pesky russes.

First turn alpha strike is dead. The strategic reserve rules is its doom. The only one which can work is one based on a lot of no-los shooting, but those weapons tend to be blast.

Bast weapons are getting increased in cost.
No-los weapons are getting increased in cost.
There is a general increase on all units.

Expect stuff like TFC and basiliks to get a really steep cost increase.
   
Made in us
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought






Spoletta wrote:

First turn alpha strike is dead. The strategic reserve rules is its doom.
I wouldn't call it dead, but it will be a way harder to force upon your opponent. The reserves play-counter-play is going to get really interesting, but I think the option to still be able to inflict lots of casualties right out of the gate will remain strong. Remember you can also use infiltrators and fast movement to screen out border edges and protect your flank as well. Combine that with more LOS blocking terrain and there's a real potential to mitigate reserve maneuvers.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Kanluwen wrote:
Ice_can wrote:

Unless your a LoW and can Never benifit from Cover because "GW balance" while the Three russes on the otherside benefiting from terrain Nuclear Alpha strike you of the table.

In this case, "LoW" actually means Knight or something similar...because so far the terrain rules really only would affect things like that.

LoW are Lords of War, Spartans, Falchion, Fellblade, Typhon, baneblade, Stormhammer etc etc. Not just knight's.

Also you have as usual been sarcastic replying without actually adding anything if any value.
   
Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine




The Void

The first 3 codex releases for 9th will probably be Space Marines, Necrons, and Chaos Marines. The only question is if CSM comes first right at the end of 8th, as it often has in the past.

Always 1 on the crazed roll. 
   
Made in us
Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine




The dark hollows of Kentucky

Kanluwen wrote:
Ice_can wrote:

Unless your a LoW and can Never benifit from Cover because "GW balance" while the Three russes on the otherside benefiting from terrain Nuclear Alpha strike you of the table.

In this case, "LoW" actually means Knight or something similar...because so far the terrain rules really only would affect things like that.

Of course it means things like knights, along with super heavy tanks and traitor primarchs. What LoW is there with less than 18 wounds besides Gulliman?

Drudge Dreadnought wrote:The first 3 codex releases for 9th will probably be Space Marines, Necrons, and Chaos Marines. The only question is if CSM comes first right at the end of 8th, as it often has in the past.

Don't get my hopes up. Though I fear when we do get a new codex they're going to double down on the "scary marines" theme for Night Lords.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Spoletta wrote:
That's where you reserve your knights and blast those pesky russes.

First turn alpha strike is dead. The strategic reserve rules is its doom. The only one which can work is one based on a lot of no-los shooting, but those weapons tend to be blast.

Bast weapons are getting increased in cost.
No-los weapons are getting increased in cost.
There is a general increase on all units.

Expect stuff like TFC and basiliks to get a really steep cost increase.


It does look really strong, particularly that you can bring them on on T2 on a side edge, not just on your own table edge.

   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Daedalus81 wrote:


Far less than what was removed from overwatch with hit rolls, rerolls, wound rolls, rerolls, saves, fnp, and damage. It seems like it will be pretty trivial most of the time.


Melee didn't, and I think won't, happen as often as losing guys from shoting. It is hard to compare those two.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Spoletta wrote:

Bast weapons are getting increased in cost.
No-los weapons are getting increased in cost.
There is a general increase on all units.

Expect stuff like TFC and basiliks to get a really steep cost increase.


In general points will rise, but the rest is still deep speculation. Weapon costs and such could surprise us - for better or worse.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Don't get my hopes up. Though I fear when we do get a new codex they're going to double down on the "scary marines" theme for Night Lords.


They're already there. Stacking negatives, Flay Them Alive, double model counts for morale relic. Grab Haarken and some Butcher Cannons and maybe some Slaanesh neg mod stuff. Could be fun for a spin.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/06/24 22:29:44


   
Made in us
Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine




The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Don't get my hopes up. Though I fear when we do get a new codex they're going to double down on the "scary marines" theme for Night Lords.


They're already there. Stacking negatives, Flay Them Alive, double model counts for morale relic. Grab Haarken and some Butcher Cannons and maybe some Slaanesh neg mod stuff. Could be fun for a spin.

It was. I used all of that stuff, except Haarken because he's Black Legion, and Slaanesh because Night Lords shouldn't use daemons. But it won't work very well with these new rules. Definitely not against loyalists. Gw needs to drop the scary marines angle and take a page from 30k and give us A Talent For Murder. There's too many things that are immune to morale mechanics.

And gw never did give a FAQ on how Flay Them Alive works against atsknf.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Night Lords shouldn't use daemons.


Aww, come on. You know you wanna!

   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

Ice_can wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
Ice_can wrote:

Unless your a LoW and can Never benifit from Cover because "GW balance" while the Three russes on the otherside benefiting from terrain Nuclear Alpha strike you of the table.

In this case, "LoW" actually means Knight or something similar...because so far the terrain rules really only would affect things like that.

LoW are Lords of War, Spartans, Falchion, Fellblade, Typhon, baneblade, Stormhammer etc etc. Not just knight's.

Also you have as usual been sarcastic replying without actually adding anything if any value.

Lords of War are also Armigers/War Dogs, Guilliman, and a few other characters--correct?

Armigers/War Dogs are 12W. You're complaining about a specific type of Lord of War(something with 18W+) not benefiting from a specific type of cover(Obscuring). We STILL have not seen all of the Cover traits and pretending that things like the tanks you've mentioned might not get bespoke rules allowing for them to potentially claim Obscuring is daft at this point. For all we know, tanks are going to get a "Low Profile" bit saying they can claim the benefits of cover in spite of the amount of Wounds they have.

And for the record?
Another important point to note is that, even though Obscuring terrain blocks line of sight from one side to the other, a unit that’s INSIDE the terrain can still be freely targeted (though they will receive the benefit of cover if the terrain also has the Light Cover trait) and can give fire in return. However, the days of drawing line of sight through a gap in the wall and three consecutive windows to a unit on the opposite side of a huge building are over!

I certainly might have missed it, but as far as I know we have seen nothing suggesting that an 18+W model cannot claim the benefits of Light or Heavy Cover. Just that they cannot be Obscured or claim Dense Cover.


 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Of course it means things like knights, along with super heavy tanks and traitor primarchs. What LoW is there with less than 18 wounds besides Gulliman?

Armigers are Lords of War with 12 Wounds.
And like you said...Guilliman. Isn't Ghazghkull also a Lord of War? He's got 12 Wounds, if so.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/06/24 23:56:33


 
   
Made in us
Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine




The dark hollows of Kentucky

Kanluwen wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Of course it means things like knights, along with super heavy tanks and traitor primarchs. What LoW is there with less than 18 wounds besides Gulliman?

Armigers are Lords of War with 12 Wounds.
And like you said...Guilliman. Isn't Ghazghkull also a Lord of War? He's got 12 Wounds, if so.

Ah, forgot about armigers. No Ghaz is a HQ choice. And I've theorized that super heavy tanks might get a "hull down" rule as well. Hope it happens. The idea of a repulsor executioner taking pot shots at my fellblade and it not being able to retaliate irks me to no end.

Daedalus81 wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Night Lords shouldn't use daemons.


Aww, come on. You know you wanna!

No, no I really don't.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/06/25 01:33:25


 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Not even enslaved Furies?

   
Made in us
Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine




The dark hollows of Kentucky

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Not even enslaved Furies?

Nope, never used them. I mean, it's not like they were even good is it? The only things remotely daemonic I've ever run in my Night Lords are warp talons, and my dreadclaws, but they only had the daemonic possession USR back in the day to represent their psychotic machine spirits. Just my own personal preference for my company of psychopathic transhuman murder machines. I don't even use the mutant dreadnoughts.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Gadzilla666 wrote:

I don't even use the mutant dreadnoughts.


I hate that kit. Thank god for Forgeworld.

   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I hate that kit. Thank god for Forgeworld.
I hate that kit as well, but not because of its aesthetics, but more because the person who designed it must've been a four armed 13 fingered freak, as it's just so damned hard to put together...

   
Made in us
Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine




The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:

I don't even use the mutant dreadnoughts.


I hate that kit. Thank god for Forgeworld.

Indeed! The Night Lords contemptor and leviathan are perfect, no modifications needed (though I've added some bits to the leviathan), and the daredeo is great as well. Got any legion specific dreads yourself?

I really hope this isn't all they're doing with leadership. I was really hoping they'd use it for a test for fallback at least.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
I hate that kit. Thank god for Forgeworld.
I hate that kit as well, but not because of its aesthetics, but more because the person who designed it must've been a four armed 13 fingered freak, as it's just so damned hard to put together...


You're a braver man than I. I could never put the money down. The snap-fit was enough.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Got any legion specific dreads yourself?


Heck, yea. I use the Thousand Son Contemptors as "Dreads" and the Osiron as a proper Contemptor. Love them so much.

I really hope this isn't all they're doing with leadership. I was really hoping they'd use it for a test for fallback at least.


They'll have more interactions soon, I'm sure. Fallback could be like the old "move toward your board edge". It's the rule I most want to see, but least want to have GW reveal, because people are going to lose their minds.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/25 02:59:13


   
Made in us
Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine




The dark hollows of Kentucky

Fallback is the rule I want to see the most now as well.

But the new fw books are what I want to see the most period. I want to know what they're doing with my resin toys, and my R&H.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I'm on the fence seems ok but I've never been thrilled with the morale system in the game. They always fiddle with it and then make it pointless for most I guess we'll see what they do with it this edition but if past is any teacher it'll be a new system and little real impact for most. I guess my guard will last a bit longer, which is good. Commissars still look to be useless pretty much as I'm not sure if the re roll will be worth it given the fact you'll be killing one regardless and it may just end up giving you an additional loss for no real benefit.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





washington state USA

Ice_can wrote:
Catulle wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
Spoiler:
Catulle wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
Catulle wrote:
 catbarf wrote:
Repeating what I said in the other thread: This makes hordes more viable, but MSU is still A-OK. A five-man Ld8 squad can lose 3 members and still only fails on a 6.

Kill four out of five, and the survivor has a 33% chance of failing the test, and then a 33% chance of fleeing. So killing 4/5 members of a squad results in just an 11% chance of the last one fleeing- which is actually lower than the current chance, where the last guy would flee 33% of the time.

And this was supposed to make MSU less attractive?

Edit: Whoops, I completely left out the one model automatically fleeing from failing the test. Killing 4/5 members has the same 33% chance of the last one fleeing as currently. Killing 3/5 means a 22% chance of one fleeing, and a 11% chance of both fleeing. Current probability at 3 casualties is 17% chance of losing one, 17% chance of losing both. So... still not really a nerf to MSU.


The wyvern alone killed Guardians. Who thought 24 shots, +1 to hit, no LOS, reroll wounds was a good idea?

Spoiler: the playtester ruinning the ITC. Can't spot Nazi knight iconography or gaping design issues!


What's giving the +1 to hit?

I'm not touching that second part with a barge pole.


Stratagem. It's in the WarComm article, with glee

Ironically that strategum makes no sence as it requires the unit to have LoS to the target and a Wyvern aint that hard to kill.

More egregious ia the damn Leman Russ strategum Russ now get 12 shots vrs vehicals and 12 shots vrs Hordes and minimum 6 shots avarage of 8 against 6+ units FFS at this point those thing better damn well be over 200-250 points each.


Maybe the terrain will save us...

Unless your a LoW and can Never benifit from Cover because "GW balance" while the Three russes on the otherside benefiting from terrain Nuclear Alpha strike you of the table.

Add this to Spacemarines and quite frankly It's feeling like I'd be better of trying to find HH games for my armies as they would be less broken than this Pro Marines, Pro sisters, Pro Guard,Pro GSC? Editions where certain units look like they will need points drops for 8th not increases to be playable.


This is why i still play 5th or HH LD checks? roll that 2d6 if you take 25% casualties form shooting, only penalties apply in losses from melee.....and terrain works both ways for everybody with less extra dice rolling.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/25 07:21:08


 
   
Made in de
Storm Trooper with Maglight






As I said earlier: the possibility to pass morale on a natural 1 regardless of modifiers might make Commissars a bit more interesting as this way you stop the rolls for attrition, especially if losses were so grave that you won't make that first morale roll anyways.

Look for example at an infantry squad that took 5 casualties
without commissar (LD 7):
33.3% to roll a 1 or 2 and loose no models
66.7% to roll anything but a 1, and loose 1 model to morale followed by 10/3 = 3.3 to attrition
=> average losses: 2.9 models

with commissar (LD 8):
50 % to roll a 1-3 loosing no models
25 % to roll a 1-3 after summary execution for 1 model lost
25% to roll anything else on the reroll, resulting in 1 model executed, 1 lost from morale, 3.3 from attrition
=> average losses 1.6 models

It's not much, but a bit over 1 model more survives

Edit: sorry, misread that you have to be BELOW 1/2 strength before attrition gets the Penalty.
But I think the general point still comes across. Summary execution increases the Chance to not have to roll for attrition




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another thing I realized (sorry if that was a no brainer for everyone else):
while hordes a punished by Blasts etc. it now seems to be pretty hard to guarantee to remove them.

Looking at a 30 men Conscript blob with LD4:
in 8 the chance for a complete unit wipe out was:
100% after 17 losses
83.3% after 16 losses
66.6% after 15 losses etc.

in 9th now it is:
83.3% after 29 losses (as the last guy would still survive on a 1)
27.8% after 28 losses (the 29th guy runs in 83.3% of cases, but then the last one only fails his attrition role 1/3rd of the time)
9.3% after 27 losses

Sure, that does not make them super crazy strong, but a conscript blob contesting an objective now really needs some work to be done with.
It also means that while a Leman Russ or similar vehicle that was touched by some hoardy units can use its main gun if he can get rid of them using his sponsons, it might be impossible to do so.
Edit: never mind the last Point, I forgot that the morale phase comes later anyways.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/06/25 13:24:38


~2800 build and painted 
   
Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor




Tacoma, WA, USA

 Pyroalchi wrote:
As I said earlier: the possibility to pass morale on a natural 1 regardless of modifiers might make Commissars a bit more interesting as this way you stop the rolls for attrition, especially if losses were so grave that you won't make that first morale roll anyways.

Look for example at an infantry squad that took 5 casualties
without commissar (LD 7):
33.3% to roll a 1 or 2 and lose no models
66.7% to roll anything but a 1, and loose 1 model to morale followed by 10/3 = 3.3 to attrition
=> average losses: 2.9 models

with commissar (LD 8):
50 % to roll a 1-3 losing no models
25 % to roll a 1-3 after summary execution for 1 model lost
25% to roll anything else on the reroll, resulting in 1 model executed, 1 lost from morale, 3.3 from attrition
=> average losses 1.6 models

It's not much, but a bit over 1 model more survives

Edit: sorry, misread that you have to be BELOW 1/2 strength before attrition gets the Penalty.
But I think the general point still comes across. Summary execution increases the Chance to not have to roll for attrition
Your math on Attrition is off. If you fail the morale test, you lose a model and then roll Attrition on the remaining 4 models in the unit. With a 1/3 chance to lose each model, that's 4/3 models lost to Attrition. So the actual results are:
without commissar (LD 7):
33.3% to roll a 1 or 2 and loose no models
66.7% to roll anything but a 1, and loose 1 model to morale followed by 4/3 = 1.33 to attrition
Average losses: 1.55 models

with commissar (LD 8):
50 % to roll a 1-3 loosing no models
25 % to roll a 1-3 after summary execution for 1 model lost
25% to roll anything else on the reroll, resulting in 1 model executed, 1 lost from morale, 3/3 = 1 from attrition
Average losses 0.75 models with Summary Execution, for going Summary Execution, the Average increases to 1 model

Shockingly, the Commisar will actually do it's job, reducing average loss in this case by 50%.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/26 02:39:41


 
   
Made in de
Storm Trooper with Maglight






Ah, sorry, that mistake was stupid .
Thanks for clearing it up (and be so polite about it

~2800 build and painted 
   
 
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