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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Well, today will probably be the golden age of 40K for the majority of players that start now (especially if they are in their early teens) and stick with it / return to the game after dropping out in their later teens / early 20s.

For those that went through that "first-giddy-teenage-love-with-warhammer" experience in a previous edition, that "golden age" isn't coming back.


(shrugs) My own "Golden Age" Warhammer-wise is WHFB 3rd ed, not 40k.
I started 40k in the closing days of RT & my overall favorite era of play to date has been 3rd/4th ed.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Blackie wrote:
 posermcbogus wrote:


The "well there are more expensive hobbies" is a moot point. There's always a more expensive hobby.
Most people talking about price are either talking about prices VS prices a few years ago, or from the perspective of countries outside the US/Eurosphere, and value for money, something GW have been doing increasingly poorly on, between the last few years of annual price "adjustments", the finecast debacle, and the hikes to the antipodes. Outside of maybe "travel" which is a loose-y goose-y one at best, combining a whole slew of my interests, warhammer is far and away my most expensive hobby. And I have a whole bunch of weird, stupid hobbies, that I can't even ride, like a motorcycle, or murder people with, like a revolver.


True, but if you consider the most popular hobbies then it really isn't a very expensive one. For example here a lot of people pay to watch football games on tv or at the stadium, which is even more expensive, go out to the clubs on the weekend and play videogames. It is even extremely common to do all three activities and each one of those "hobbies" alone is actually much more expensive than completing a 2000-3000 points army over a period of 2-3 years. In the long run all of them are extremely more expensive than wargaming.

This hobby requires a high investment at the beginning, that's what makes it gatekeeping for many. But I'd rather pay 200 in a day and be ok for an year than paying 300+ over the whole year for the same purpose (aka enjoying an hobby). Not to mention that the miniatures can be sold at any time, getting back some of amount that has been invested. That is not true for many other hobbies, even for videogames and their consoles since their values drop dramatically after a few years, if not even months.

So, why playing at videogames is considered a "cheap enough" or reasonable hobby and wargaming is not? Or getting a couple of drinks each ven and sat?


Video game playing is far cheaper. If you know what you are doing a comp isn't a hard process, getting some components currently might be but hopefully that won't be so forever. Game consoles are far cheaper. The cash outlay for the system is around the cost of a small to moderate army and if you get games ? Even that is cheaper when you look at keeping up with burn and churn of books and models that are usable in your army from book to book. If you use something like game pass you are spending much less and have instant use on hand as opposed to all the nuance that goes into getting a game ready let alone played of warhammer.

Now I love warhammer, I have for a long time but this isn't the cheaper choice neither in cash or more importantly as you get older in time.
   
Made in us
Grumpy Longbeard





washington state USA

On the subject of other hobbies in general. anything that is not a necessity is generally considered an "extra" expense.

Our hobbies also change over time given our age and life situation.

When i was in my teens and 20s i was an avid mountainbiker and off road trail and street (motorcycle) rider. while i still have my mountain bike i don't get to use it much anymore. as one does not go into the wilderness areas alone in case of emergencies.

so you have to align
.weather
.travel time
.partners
.maintenance
etc.

i really stopped when i ran out of people to go with,

I also enjoy firearms and shooting sports, but the cost is currently prohibitive for a casual hobby and i have to travel to specific locations to engage in it.

I am also a huge metal head and spend a good chunk of money on physical albums, merch and concerts

I am an old school (started before anime was a "thing": in the USA in the early 80s) anime fan...and you do not want to see the price tag for all the DVDs, laser discs, toys, models, figures, plushies, manga, cosplay etc.. i have spent over the years.

Mini gaming has currently become my main hobby for very simple reasons

.it is social activity with friends
.we play indoors so weather is not an issue
.it is not physically exhausting
.one my models are built and painted there is no additional cost
.it provides non repetitive entertainment as no 2 games are the same.

So yes all hobbies by their very nature are expensive. the big rub with GW in particular is the buy in cost is greater than just about any other game system to have a complete playable force.
we can go through the nuts and bolts of production costs, overhead, markup etc... but the reality is that you are paying a premium for the IP. much like you do when you buy any other "brand name" item.

The lore and market share makes them the top dog in available player base even if they are not the best at making a game system and the minis are overpriced. .



GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear 
   
Made in nl
Secret Inquisitorial Eldar Xenexecutor






your mind

The_Real_Chris wrote:
According to the internet in the UK the most popular hobbies are... reading, walking, eating out and gardening. Eating out could cost my than my model habit, though there is a wide range of prices and part of that involved money you have to spend on sustenance anyhow. Gardening is another widely varying one, but for the majority is quite cheap.

According to eurostat most common pastime is watching TV (cost starting at £159 per year, plus electricity and equipment) - about half their free time is spent doing this, followed by socialising. Between 20-25% of free time is spent on sport and hobbies.


In the UK, reading? Surprised but good news!

Eurostat, tho, OMG that is depressing. People watch TV then talk about it. That fact indeed explains why The world is drowning in a sea of cultish delusion.

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 AngryAngel80 wrote:


Video game playing is far cheaper. If you know what you are doing a comp isn't a hard process, getting some components currently might be but hopefully that won't be so forever. Game consoles are far cheaper. The cash outlay for the system is around the cost of a small to moderate army and if you get games ? Even that is cheaper when you look at keeping up with burn and churn of books and models that are usable in your army from book to book. If you use something like game pass you are spending much less and have instant use on hand as opposed to all the nuance that goes into getting a game ready let alone played of warhammer.

Now I love warhammer, I have for a long time but this isn't the cheaper choice neither in cash or more importantly as you get older in time.


Correction. It can be far cheaper.

I just spent a hundred quid on valhalla. No regrets, this game is amazing. But That's also a rulebook and 3 factions boxes for necromunda.

Back when I got it, and to be fair I got a great deal, I dropped £400 on my xbox 1 and a whole bunch of games. Great investment, I love it greatly and get a lot of enjoyment out of it etc, but it's hardly cheap. Gamepass is still a hundred quid a year for games you might never actually play as well. And in my 30 odd years of playing video games I've played plenty that once you play through once in a couple of hours, you're done with them since the replay value is nil. Not a great return on twenty quid, or even sixty. I can't say the same for my 40k dudes or wmh dudes - I've had some of my stuff for half my life now and still enjoy fielding them.

With respect,if you are 'in the know' for ttg's you can cut right down on the costs too. Similarly, 'keeping up with the churn and burn' isn't a requirement unless you insist on chasing thw meta.Oldcromunda was kept alive by fans for 20 years without either new models or books. In any case while I'm.not disagreeing, Im pretty sure if you kept chasing the dragon for the very latest computery wotsits as well, it would verge on the exorbitant very very quickly.

The truth is that if you're even a little bit savvy, it's not hard to save on your money, whether that's video games or table top games. You're right, the time component is huge for ttgs, but I dont mind it. I spent 3 hours painting bronze armour on my iron Golems last night. Just the bronze, lol. In terms of cost, warhammer or whatever your choice of game is, might cost a bit but if you're into that kind of thing, the value is also there.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/13 07:07:29


greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

 AngryAngel80 wrote:


Video game playing is far cheaper. If you know what you are doing a comp isn't a hard process, getting some components currently might be but hopefully that won't be so forever. Game consoles are far cheaper. The cash outlay for the system is around the cost of a small to moderate army and if you get games ? Even that is cheaper when you look at keeping up with burn and churn of books and models that are usable in your army from book to book. If you use something like game pass you are spending much less and have instant use on hand as opposed to all the nuance that goes into getting a game ready let alone played of warhammer.

Now I love warhammer, I have for a long time but this isn't the cheaper choice neither in cash or more importantly as you get older in time.


I disagree. Even buying a single new game per month is utterly expensive. And consolles/pc must be updated very frequently, every 3-4 years maybe? So in the long period videogaming is very expensive. At least that's what most of the videogamers does. Of course if you're just interested to play a couple of games per year then it's far cheaper but at that point it's not your primary hobby. But at the same time you might stay in the wargaming hobby without investing much. I haven't bought a single model between 2017-2020, just a few sprays and paints. If I consider the entire amount I paid, including the value of gifts I've received, since when I started (22-23 years now) it's definitely less than 20$ per month, and I have over 10K points of models. The amount of cash required to watch on tv the football team that I support is higher, a bit more than 30$ per month. And that is something that millions are willing to do without blinking an eye.

All my friends' hobbies are far more expensive than warhammer, some of my other hobbies also are. Let's not even mention smoking, which is also bad for people's health.

Our hobby is very expensive to start, but in the long period it really isn't compared to lots of other popular hobbies and activities.

About the matter of the topic I think that for people who started in the last 10ish years (during 6th, 7th or 8th) this is definitely the golden age of 40k. Core mechanics are quite strong and after ages there's balance between the shooting and close combat phases. Most competitive lists using 9th edition codexes finally look like reasonable collections of models rather than super skew builds. There's also a vast amount of factions that aren't that far from the top tiers, which is also healthy.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/04/13 07:38:55


Orks 7000
Space Wolves 4000
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




You can say the same about most hobbies though. Most hobbies can be really expensive if you want it to be, or quite cheap. Most people who play video games probably don't average one new release a month, for example. If you play an instrument you could spend thousands on a top-quality instrument or a few hundred and still get something that will last, literally, a lifetime if taken care of. Some of the people I play tennis with have only spent money on club membership and a pair of trainers about once every 3 years. They're using the same racquet they had 5 years ago and it's still perfectly fine.

Wargaming's no different. You can scour eBay looking for the best deals, buy cheaper paints and brushes and build terrain from scratch for next to nothing, or you can buy an entire FW army and get it pro-painted for more money than most people spend buying a car. The fact remains that relative to other wargames, GW's stuff is expensive both in absolute terms and, especially, in relative terms when you consider that's needed to play a standard game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/13 08:00:30


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Slipspace wrote:
or you can buy an entire FW army and get it pro-painted for more money than most people spend buying a car. .


I want to see an escher tank company and orlock drop trooper company.

Slipspace wrote:
or The fact remains that relative to other wargames, GW's stuff is expensive both in absolute terms and, especially, in relative terms when you consider that's needed to play a standard game.


I disagree somewat though, Slipspace. While you are not wrong, and yes, gw stuff is at the higher end snd is more expensive than a number of 'budget' alternatives for sure I've given the example previously of warmachine which has some disgusting price points for competitive builds. Infinity will cost you as well, but for the terrain, not the models. There are also plenty boutique miniatures whose costs are frightening. 'Standard' games are a myth, there's never been more ways of playing.

On the other end of the scale I can alsi get playing necromunda for the gangs of necromunda book, and a box of escher. 20% off an online order and I have a very good game on a limited budget. Same with warcry. Simple, but very very enjoyable game I find.

I do agree that it's an expensive hobby, with some mitigating factors. And I do enjoy it so for me it's worth the price.

greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

It's exactly my point. Relative to other wargames GW stuff is definitely more expensive than average but compared to most of the popular hobbies (or wherever people like to dump their well earned money) it really isn't.

I know people who buy a phone every 2-3 years spending hundreds, if not a whole thousand everytime. I change my phone ever 10ish years and I've never paid more than 150-200 to do it. Now consider 10 years, how many models, paints, books and tools could those people obsessed with phones have buoght if they just got 1 or 2 (much) cheaper phones in that period? Or even 1 or 2 of the most expensive ones instead of 4-5?

Getting a 3000 points painted army and playing with it isn't really that expensive if we consider a period of 3-5 years for example. The hobby of course can be utterly expensive for those who demand everything now or those who chase the flavour of the month, which isn't the standard behaviour thankfully.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/13 08:24:20


Orks 7000
Space Wolves 4000
 
   
Made in us
Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!






 Blackie wrote:
 AngryAngel80 wrote:


Video game playing is far cheaper. If you know what you are doing a comp isn't a hard process, getting some components currently might be but hopefully that won't be so forever. Game consoles are far cheaper. The cash outlay for the system is around the cost of a small to moderate army and if you get games ? Even that is cheaper when you look at keeping up with burn and churn of books and models that are usable in your army from book to book. If you use something like game pass you are spending much less and have instant use on hand as opposed to all the nuance that goes into getting a game ready let alone played of warhammer.

Now I love warhammer, I have for a long time but this isn't the cheaper choice neither in cash or more importantly as you get older in time.


I disagree. Even buying a single new game per month is utterly expensive. And consolles/pc must be updated very frequently, every 3-4 years maybe? So in the long period videogaming is very expensive. At least that's what most of the videogamers does. Of course if you're just interested to play a couple of games per year then it's far cheaper but at that point it's not your primary hobby. But at the same time you might stay in the wargaming hobby without investing much. I haven't bought a single model between 2017-2020, just a few sprays and paints. If I consider the entire amount I paid, including the value of gifts I've received, since when I started (22-23 years now) it's definitely less than 20$ per month, and I have over 10K points of models. The amount of cash required to watch on tv the football team that I support is higher, a bit more than 30$ per month. And that is something that millions are willing to do without blinking an eye.


I'm not disagreeing with you entirely about the fact that wargaming has a bigger up front cost that peters out with time unless you keep expanding your collection, but you seem to be overestimating how expensive videogames are. Unless you are falling down the gatcha hole and whaling hard, you have the up front costs of the computer/game system, and then the games you want, which unlike warhammer models, go on sale fairly often, or are made available for super cheap in bundles. I think I have purchased a single full price videogame in the past 10 years, and the time I spent more than 50% on one I can probably count on my fingers. Also, unless you are obsessed with the bleeding edge, you can get away with letting your pc age more than 3-4 years. My last one I ran with for 9 years, and only in the last year was it starting to show its age with newer games.

Factor in that a pc is used for everyday life - from watching movies, random videos, standard internetting, chatting with friends, and looking up ideas for paint schemes and the like, and it is hardly an investment to go from a computer that does that to adding the gaming stuff.
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran



London

PenitentJake wrote:
This is a good point, and interestingly enough, it's why 8th felt good to me when everyone else was posting negatively: in my formative GW years, 1989-1997, my favourite army was GSC, and there was a real sense of army as warband (Blanchitsu style!). Beyond my formative years, there were Witch Hunters- Sisters plus Inquisitors.

Then those things disappeared for a decade.


Snap! Well on GSC. My all time favourite army, indeed end of rogue trader I even had my genestealer invasion force (defeated by anything that hovered...).

I always wondered if I was responsible for GW killing it off - at the 2nd Int 40k grand tourney a baffled Paul Sawyer taking questioned exclaimed 'why the (insert words) a Genestealer cult was top, where did they come from...' (I sadly got crushed by one or both -long time ago!- of the two powergamed armies on Sunday, an Eldar with vortex grenade and Ork with 50% of the army non scoring characters on bikes with flamers - the army won by being physically impossible to give away more VPs than it lost...). Still prefer that army to the current incarnation, not just because I got to have a IG landspeeder but because I got to have brood brothers, hybrids and genestealers and all were great!
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 kurhanik wrote:

I'm not disagreeing with you entirely about the fact that wargaming has a bigger up front cost that peters out with time unless you keep expanding your collection, but you seem to be overestimating how expensive videogames are. Unless you are falling down the gatcha hole and whaling hard, you have the up front costs of the computer/game system, and then the games you want, which unlike warhammer models, go on sale fairly often, or are made available for super cheap in bundles. I think I have purchased a single full price videogame in the past 10 years, and the time I spent more than 50% on one I can probably count on my fingers. Also, unless you are obsessed with the bleeding edge, you can get away with letting your pc age more than 3-4 years. My last one I ran with for 9 years, and only in the last year was it starting to show its age with newer games.

Factor in that a pc is used for everyday life - from watching movies, random videos, standard internetting, chatting with friends, and looking up ideas for paint schemes and the like, and it is hardly an investment to go from a computer that does that to adding the gaming stuff.


You yourself are not wrong on what you say. It can be reasonable, so long as you don't obsess on needing all the consoles and staying current with tech.its still not exactly cheap though.

However, leading on from this I think folks need to be careful on the comparisons they make too (I'm not directing this at you by the way) when they compare a 'savvy' or smart take on a different hobby and compare it directly to the most expensive and outrageous expression at the 'bleeding edge' of the buying gw hobby (buy all the books, chase the meta and churn etc) with the deliberately intention of making the gw one look bad in comparison. It verges, whether intentionally,or in all likelihood accidentally on the dishonest.

As you say, you can be smart with video games and tech stuff.
It can end up being very reasonable. Same goesfor ttgs. And if we compare a 'chasing the meta' approach for 40k, it should be against a 'chasing the meta 'approach for video games and technology, and needing all the latest toys to stay current, rather than 'its a decent 4 year old computer, it'll do...'approach.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/13 14:51:00


greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Yeah, and honestly, if you're actually painting all the miniatures you buy rather than buying new ones and having a huge pile of gray...it's gonna take a WHILE to get through enough minis to be wasting lots of money.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Deadnight wrote:
 kurhanik wrote:

I'm not disagreeing with you entirely about the fact that wargaming has a bigger up front cost that peters out with time unless you keep expanding your collection, but you seem to be overestimating how expensive videogames are. Unless you are falling down the gatcha hole and whaling hard, you have the up front costs of the computer/game system, and then the games you want, which unlike warhammer models, go on sale fairly often, or are made available for super cheap in bundles. I think I have purchased a single full price videogame in the past 10 years, and the time I spent more than 50% on one I can probably count on my fingers. Also, unless you are obsessed with the bleeding edge, you can get away with letting your pc age more than 3-4 years. My last one I ran with for 9 years, and only in the last year was it starting to show its age with newer games.

Factor in that a pc is used for everyday life - from watching movies, random videos, standard internetting, chatting with friends, and looking up ideas for paint schemes and the like, and it is hardly an investment to go from a computer that does that to adding the gaming stuff.


You yourself are not wrong on what you say. It can be reasonable, so long as you don't obsess on needing all the consoles and staying current with tech.its still not exactly cheap though.

However, leading on from this I think folks need to be careful on the comparisons they make too (I'm not directing this at you by the way) when they compare a 'savvy' or smart take on a different hobby and compare it directly to the most expensive and outrageous expression at the 'bleeding edge' of the buying gw hobby (buy all the books, chase the meta and churn etc) with the deliberately intention of making the gw one look bad in comparison. It verges, whether intentionally,or in all likelihood accidentally on the dishonest.

As you say, you can be smart with video games and tech stuff.
It can end up being very reasonable. Same goesfor ttgs. And if we compare a 'chasing the meta' approach for 40k, it should be against a 'chasing the meta 'approach for video games and technology, and needing all the latest toys to stay current, rather than 'its a decent 4 year old computer, it'll do...'approach.

You're sorta missing the point. Said video game is an investment that you'll still be able to always use, whereas you don't know whether your model purchased will be any good. This has nothing to do with "chasing the meta", those Kroot some people have are still absolutely terrible.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut







Yeah, and I can definitely wheel out my Renegades and Heretics units for your average PUG of 40k-

-wait no I can't. Thanks GW.
   
Made in us
Grumpy Longbeard





washington state USA

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah, and I can definitely wheel out my Renegades and Heretics units for your average PUG of 40k-

-wait no I can't. Thanks GW.



Welcome to the wonderful world of funhammer/oldhammer/prohammer/hybrid 5th ed where we don't give a **** what the current game or meta is and everything is still legal to use.



Oh and that chapter approved kroot army from 5th ed era...had a buddy who LOVED to play it and it was actually kinda scary.



GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

You're sorta missing the point. Said video game is an investment that you'll still be able to always use, whereas you don't know whether your model purchased will be any good. This has nothing to do with "chasing the meta", those Kroot some people have are still absolutely terrible.


Say that to my dreamcast...


Youre saying a load of tosh here slayer. I've got plenty games I've played once and then deleted or never bothered with again. Waste of £££ if you ask me. As 'investments' go, terrible. To be fair, i've kept most of my games going back to my mega drive (sentimentality is a thing...) but being brutally honest, outside of the sentimentality factor most of them are not worth anything anymore, haven't aged well and really, are not worth going back to play. For every metal gear solid, there's a hundred titles that will be forgotten days after release.

Whereas ive got plenty ttg models from back in the mid naughties, and my mates gave wargaming stuff from before then they still use.ive got 60 kroot and they're still some of my favourite aliens and I still love the models. I played the absolute hell out of them in fourth, they were my absolute favourite unit in the tau codex and even if all I ever do with them in the future is keep them in my display case, they've been worth every penny of the time I've put into them and the value I've gotten out of them.

There's more ways to play than competitive/tournament, and only valuing the 3% of the roster this approach values, though it's an approach you refuse to acknowledge or consider. And 'good' is a very nebulous term...

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/13 18:39:03


greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
Made in gb
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London

 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, and honestly, if you're actually painting all the miniatures you buy rather than buying new ones and having a huge pile of gray...it's gonna take a WHILE to get through enough minis to be wasting lots of money.


Never paint all your models

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/13 18:31:25


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut







 aphyon wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah, and I can definitely wheel out my Renegades and Heretics units for your average PUG of 40k-

-wait no I can't. Thanks GW.



Welcome to the wonderful world of funhammer/oldhammer/prohammer/hybrid 5th ed where we don't give a **** what the current game or meta is and everything is still legal to use.



Oh and that chapter approved kroot army from 5th ed era...had a buddy who LOVED to play it and it was actually kinda scary.


Unfortunately, I have found it WAY easier to start up entirely new games with entirely new minis than to convince the local area folks to play an earlier edition of 40k with most of the minis they already have.
   
 
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