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Made in us
Stoic Grail Knight




I think the majority of your responses will go like this based on where you get them from:

1. Dakka: no it sucks

2. Reddit: could be it's the best it's been

3. Bolter & Chainsword: Crusade is amazing

4. Players who travel for games (tournament folks go here): it's a golden age

5. Players who only play at home or local: split

6. TTS players: golden age

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/12 04:32:59


 
   
Made in us
Steady Space Marine Vet Sergeant




San Jose, CA

#1 could literally be anything if you go by Dakka's track record.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Maybe because some of us don't think accepting mediocrity = Golden Age.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in jp
Perfect Shot Black Templar Predator Pilot





Ishikawa Prefecture, Japan

The Newman wrote:
40k isn't cheap to be sure, but I always think the complaints about it lack a certain perspective.

Look at the cost of parts and tools to restore a car, or owning a motorcycle or sailboat. Heck, go look up the price of a good revolver. As hobbies go 40k isn't anywhere near the top of the price list.


40k isn't expensive to be sure, but I always think the complaints about it lack a certain perspective.

Look at the low cost of buying a second hand guitar and learning to play, or owning a single games console and a few games. Heck, go look up the price of a good gym membership. As hobbies go 40k isn't anywhere near the bottom of the price list.


The "well there are more expensive hobbies" is a moot point. There's always a more expensive hobby.
Most people talking about price are either talking about prices VS prices a few years ago, or from the perspective of countries outside the US/Eurosphere, and value for money, something GW have been doing increasingly poorly on, between the last few years of annual price "adjustments", the finecast debacle, and the hikes to the antipodes. Outside of maybe "travel" which is a loose-y goose-y one at best, combining a whole slew of my interests, warhammer is far and away my most expensive hobby. And I have a whole bunch of weird, stupid hobbies, that I can't even ride, like a motorcycle, or murder people with, like a revolver.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Racerguy180 wrote:
#1 could literally be anything if you go by Dakka's track record.


Yeah, if anything, this thread is pretty indicative that there is no consensus here, really. Dakka has black knights, white knights, whales, consoomers, anti-GW grognards, and also just a bunch of regular humans who kinda don't fall smoothly into any bracket...

...just like *gasp* almost any cross-section of society.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/12 10:00:37


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Haven't bought from GW since December 2019 - resist price hikes and unfair pricing outside of the UK  
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




Tampa, FL

I never get tired of the "see guys it's not so bad collecting luxury cars is more expensive!" Argument. When compared to other wargames, you know the hobby of miniature wargaming of which Warhammer is just one part of, gw is far and away the most expensive relative to what you need to field a typical force. Price per model it's not but when you factor in how much you need it skyrockets.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/12 10:41:58


- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Wayniac wrote:
I never get tired of the "see guys it's not so bad collecting luxury cars is more expensive!" Argument. When compared to other wargames, you know the hobby of miniature wargaming of which Warhammer is just one part of, gw is far and away the most expensive relative to what you need to field a typical force. Price per model it's not but when you factor in how much you need it skyrockets.


Yeah, the argument that it's not expensive seems to ignore the concept of value in favour of just directly comparing prices. 40k is neither the most expensive nor cheapest hobby but that's not really important to most people. The most important thing is whether it feels like good value and usually that means comparing it to similar hobbies or looking at the time investment vs cost. 40k is an expensive wargame. It's expensive in absolute terms (the models cost a lot for what they are) and it's expensive in relative terms (very few non-GW wargames are as expensive to get to a point where you are playing a standard game). OTOH many players have models they bought over a decade ago still in use so there is some long-term value in your initial investment.

For a new player, though, the costs can be prohibitive and I think a big part of that problem is that GW don't provide the full rules for free. They say they do, but the detachment rules and missions aren't in the free rules PDF. GW are one of the only remaining gaming companies that charge for the core rules, then they double down by charging for faction rules on top of that too. I've seen more than one player drift away from the hobby when they realise they'll need to spend over £100 just to get the rules and painting materials needed before they can even start thinking about putting an army together. Even then, more of them get disillusioned when it turns out the army they loved the look of and background for is terrible in the game. Most new players don't expect to win their games when they start out but seeing the realisation dawn that they've sunk hundreds of pounds into an army that sucks is really, really disheartening.

Until GW addresses these issues I'm not sure we can call any time period a Golden Age.
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




Tampa, FL

Slipspace wrote:
Wayniac wrote:
I never get tired of the "see guys it's not so bad collecting luxury cars is more expensive!" Argument. When compared to other wargames, you know the hobby of miniature wargaming of which Warhammer is just one part of, gw is far and away the most expensive relative to what you need to field a typical force. Price per model it's not but when you factor in how much you need it skyrockets.


Yeah, the argument that it's not expensive seems to ignore the concept of value in favour of just directly comparing prices. 40k is neither the most expensive nor cheapest hobby but that's not really important to most people. The most important thing is whether it feels like good value and usually that means comparing it to similar hobbies or looking at the time investment vs cost. 40k is an expensive wargame. It's expensive in absolute terms (the models cost a lot for what they are) and it's expensive in relative terms (very few non-GW wargames are as expensive to get to a point where you are playing a standard game). OTOH many players have models they bought over a decade ago still in use so there is some long-term value in your initial investment.

For a new player, though, the costs can be prohibitive and I think a big part of that problem is that GW don't provide the full rules for free. They say they do, but the detachment rules and missions aren't in the free rules PDF. GW are one of the only remaining gaming companies that charge for the core rules, then they double down by charging for faction rules on top of that too. I've seen more than one player drift away from the hobby when they realise they'll need to spend over £100 just to get the rules and painting materials needed before they can even start thinking about putting an army together. Even then, more of them get disillusioned when it turns out the army they loved the look of and background for is terrible in the game. Most new players don't expect to win their games when they start out but seeing the realisation dawn that they've sunk hundreds of pounds into an army that sucks is really, really disheartening.

Until GW addresses these issues I'm not sure we can call any time period a Golden Age.
Yes and given how despite all of that GW is more successful than ever, they will never see it as an issue that needs to be fixed. It's a testament to how GW fans are that these issues are glossed over or made out to not be a big deal, and therefore not something worth fixing in the first place.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/12 11:19:11


- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Wayniac wrote:
I never get tired of the "see guys it's not so bad collecting luxury cars is more expensive!" Argument. When compared to other wargames, you know the hobby of miniature wargaming of which Warhammer is just one part of, gw is far and away the most expensive relative to what you need to field a typical force. Price per model it's not but when you factor in how much you need it skyrockets.


Yeah. For example, try building a force for a 15mm ww2 game. You need a similar number of miniatures typically for a company level game as you do for 2000 points of a GW flagship game. The miniatures are about 1/2 the size, but are they 1/2 the price? Naw it's more like 1/10th. I'm building russians (the traditional "horde army" in ww2 games) and one single 40$ box of plastic infantry contained all the rifle conscripts I needed for my army - 130 of them. all told my 2000pt army cost me less than 200 dollars to build, including the relevant rulebook, which also got me missions from the campaign it was centered on and effectively was a 'codex' for 4 different armies instead of just the one I was building.

obviously, art generation is going to be massively cheaper for a historical game as opposed to an original scifi or fantasy game, because nobody owns a tank, but every single page of this 300 page book that I got for 35$ is covered in studio-painted miniatures in terrain and many pages included original drawings/diagrams copyright the company that made the game, they're not just using public domain photos from WW2.

It's just that there's enough of a profit margin present in, for example a GW codex, that you can pretty easily make a book three times the length, drop the cost by 40% and still have a profitable product.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Boom! Leman Russ Commander




I think the votes would fall almost exactly along the lines of who has a shiney new 9th edition codex full of OP toys, and who is still getting their butt kicked with 1W Power armor 8th rules.
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





The golden age?
Ruleswise, that is debatable, still a better than average edition but debatable.

Modelwise/ factionsrulewise?
Between Eldar sculpts older than posters on this forum factions and sub archetypes being removed recently to legends despite them being lorewise incredibly relevant (cue drop troops for AM not every sector has marine babysitters for assaults... NVM the footsoldiers of chaos being not represented...)

eehhh

That is a very debatable argument.

And the pricing certainly didn't get lower, especially in countries like Japan, or anyone not using £ really due to fantasy conversion rates ala GW.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

 posermcbogus wrote:


The "well there are more expensive hobbies" is a moot point. There's always a more expensive hobby.
Most people talking about price are either talking about prices VS prices a few years ago, or from the perspective of countries outside the US/Eurosphere, and value for money, something GW have been doing increasingly poorly on, between the last few years of annual price "adjustments", the finecast debacle, and the hikes to the antipodes. Outside of maybe "travel" which is a loose-y goose-y one at best, combining a whole slew of my interests, warhammer is far and away my most expensive hobby. And I have a whole bunch of weird, stupid hobbies, that I can't even ride, like a motorcycle, or murder people with, like a revolver.


True, but if you consider the most popular hobbies then it really isn't a very expensive one. For example here a lot of people pay to watch football games on tv or at the stadium, which is even more expensive, go out to the clubs on the weekend and play videogames. It is even extremely common to do all three activities and each one of those "hobbies" alone is actually much more expensive than completing a 2000-3000 points army over a period of 2-3 years. In the long run all of them are extremely more expensive than wargaming.

This hobby requires a high investment at the beginning, that's what makes it gatekeeping for many. But I'd rather pay 200 in a day and be ok for an year than paying 300+ over the whole year for the same purpose (aka enjoying an hobby). Not to mention that the miniatures can be sold at any time, getting back some of amount that has been invested. That is not true for many other hobbies, even for videogames and their consoles since their values drop dramatically after a few years, if not even months.

So, why playing at videogames is considered a "cheap enough" or reasonable hobby and wargaming is not? Or getting a couple of drinks each ven and sat?

Orks 7000
Space Wolves 4000
 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut




Well, today will probably be the golden age of 40K for the majority of players that start now (especially if they are in their early teens) and stick with it / return to the game after dropping out in their later teens / early 20s.

For those that went through that "first-giddy-teenage-love-with-warhammer" experience in a previous edition, that "golden age" isn't coming back.
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




Tampa, FL

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Well, today will probably be the golden age of 40K for the majority of players that start now (especially if they are in their early teens) and stick with it / return to the game after dropping out in their later teens / early 20s.

For those that went through that "first-giddy-teenage-love-with-warhammer" experience in a previous edition, that "golden age" isn't coming back.
Thats a very good point, too. I started in 1995 so I saw what I would consider the "golden age" as 3rd/4th edition. What we have now is sort of like the Byzantine Empire; it's good enough but a pale shadow of the old glory.

- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Blackie wrote:
 posermcbogus wrote:



So, why playing at videogames is considered a "cheap enough" or reasonable hobby and wargaming is not? Or getting a couple of drinks each ven and sat?


Video games can be an extremely extremely cheap hobby if you're OK with being a couple years behind the super-hotness. I've been basicaly buying games once they go on the first 66-75% off sale on steam and I'm able to get pretty great enjoyment out of them. Between old AAA games and indy titles I rarely need to spend over like 20$ a month on games.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

the_scotsman wrote:


Video games can be an extremely extremely cheap hobby if you're OK with being a couple years behind the super-hotness. I've been basicaly buying games once they go on the first 66-75% off sale on steam and I'm able to get pretty great enjoyment out of them. Between old AAA games and indy titles I rarely need to spend over like 20$ a month on games.


Wargaming can also be super cheap if you only buy used lots with a huge discount price. I actually never bought a single GW product at full retail price in my life, over 20+ years in the hobby: always at 25% or better discount. Used stuff even at 70-80% off. Painting the models also can require just 3-5 colours, if you go for the cheap route and the most prevailing tone could be applied by a colored primer spray.

I don't spend over 20$ a month on average for wargaming for example, and I have more than 10k points of models.


Orks 7000
Space Wolves 4000
 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Blackie wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:


Video games can be an extremely extremely cheap hobby if you're OK with being a couple years behind the super-hotness. I've been basicaly buying games once they go on the first 66-75% off sale on steam and I'm able to get pretty great enjoyment out of them. Between old AAA games and indy titles I rarely need to spend over like 20$ a month on games.


Wargaming can also be super cheap if you only buy used lots with a huge discount price. I actually never bought a single GW product at full retail price in my life, over 20+ years in the hobby: always at 25% or better discount. Used stuff even at 70-80% off. Painting the models also can require just 3-5 colours, if you go for the cheap route and the most prevailing tone could be applied by a colored primer spray.

I don't spend over 20$ a month on average for wargaming for example, and I have more than 10k points of models.



WARGAMING can be a very cheap hobby - many wargamers do tons of custom scratch-build hobby work to basicaly build their terrain and accessories out of dollar store junk and trash (check out Eric's Hobby Workshop on youtube for some very fun and relaxing trash terrain videos, I use his techniques all the time).

The Games Workshop Hobby TM is almost always more expensive than any given other wargame, though. When people say 'gw is expensive' this is what they're comparing it to: my ability to buy a 2000pt historical ww2 army with no discount or bargain-hunting for the same price you can get a beaten up thick coated sloppily glued broken secondhand GW army. Or my ability to get a functional Infinity army by buying like 3 boxes of figs and downloading the free rulebook and integrated army-building app.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

More axpensive than any other (or most of) wargame I agree, more expensive than the majority of the most popular hobbies is what I believe to be completely wrong.

Orks 7000
Space Wolves 4000
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Blackie wrote:
More axpensive than any other (or most of) wargame I agree, more expensive than the majority of the most popular hobbies is what I believe to be completely wrong.


I'm not even sure that's true. Depends what you classify as "the most popular hobbies". As an example, I play tennis and guitar as my other main hobbies. My wife plays chess, my brother plays golf and does jigsaw puzzles. Along with most of my friends I play video games. Of all of those only golf is arguably more expensive as an ongoing hobby.

Yes, my guitar and games console cost more than any single wargames purchase I've made, and a set of golf clubs is definitely not cheap. But in all those cases, the expenditure is usually a one-off or very infrequent. My main guitar is now over 20 years old, for example, so the cost per year of that hobby is miniscule. It's theoretically possible to have bought, say, an Eldar army 20 years ago and use it unchanged for all that time, thereby making the GW Hobby (tm) fairly cheap. But even then you'd have rulebooks and Codexes to buy at the rate of one of each every edition, which adds up over time. More realistically, players will spend a decent amount each edition updating their army as the edition churn changes what's good and what isn't. That's not always a bad thing because part of the point of a hobby is spending time doing something you enjoy and many people enjoy the process of building and painting armies.
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran



London

 Blackie wrote:
More axpensive than any other (or most of) wargame I agree, more expensive than the majority of the most popular hobbies is what I believe to be completely wrong.


The majority of hobbies are rather cheap. This is for no better reason than the average/modal income isn't that high and couldn't afford much GW while keeping home and family.
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




The Newman wrote:
40k isn't cheap to be sure, but I always think the complaints about it lack a certain perspective.

Look at the cost of parts and tools to restore a car, or owning a motorcycle or sailboat. Heck, go look up the price of a good revolver. As hobbies go 40k isn't anywhere near the top of the price list.

You could always compare it to owning a fully functional nuclear reactor as a hobby too. Or you know, look at hobbies like scale modeling, where the largest, most detailed kits usually go for as much as standard GW fare.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Cronch wrote:
The Newman wrote:
40k isn't cheap to be sure, but I always think the complaints about it lack a certain perspective.

Look at the cost of parts and tools to restore a car, or owning a motorcycle or sailboat. Heck, go look up the price of a good revolver. As hobbies go 40k isn't anywhere near the top of the price list.

You could always compare it to owning a fully functional nuclear reactor as a hobby too. Or you know, look at hobbies like scale modeling, where the largest, most detailed kits usually go for as much as standard GW fare.


(AKA the reason Tau didn't actually capture the japanese market.)

"So, this model, it is about 1/2 the size of the gundam I just bought, correct?"

"Yes."

"And it has no articulation"

"Nope"

"The plastic is also not colored so if I don't paint it it doesn't look roughly correct"

"Yep, gray plastic"

"And it costs... more?"

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

The_Real_Chris wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
More axpensive than any other (or most of) wargame I agree, more expensive than the majority of the most popular hobbies is what I believe to be completely wrong.


The majority of hobbies are rather cheap.


In my country the most popular hobbies are:

1) Watching sports live or on tv/other platforms
2) Going to the clubs and drinking
3) Videogames
4) Riding a bike or motorcycle
5) Comics
6) Playing one or more instruments

All much more expensive than wargaming in the long period, and lots of people have multiple of those options as their hobbies. There are also other hobbies that aren't super popular but still not more uncommon but still much more expensive than wargaming like snowboarding, photography or soft air. Among the very popular hobbies maybe just reading is the one than is reasonably cheaper than wargaming, as long as comics are not involved.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slipspace wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
More axpensive than any other (or most of) wargame I agree, more expensive than the majority of the most popular hobbies is what I believe to be completely wrong.


I'm not even sure that's true. Depends what you classify as "the most popular hobbies". As an example, I play tennis and guitar as my other main hobbies. My wife plays chess, my brother plays golf and does jigsaw puzzles. Along with most of my friends I play video games. Of all of those only golf is arguably more expensive as an ongoing hobby.

Yes, my guitar and games console cost more than any single wargames purchase I've made, and a set of golf clubs is definitely not cheap. But in all those cases, the expenditure is usually a one-off or very infrequent. My main guitar is now over 20 years old, for example, so the cost per year of that hobby is miniscule. It's theoretically possible to have bought, say, an Eldar army 20 years ago and use it unchanged for all that time, thereby making the GW Hobby (tm) fairly cheap. But even then you'd have rulebooks and Codexes to buy at the rate of one of each every edition, which adds up over time. More realistically, players will spend a decent amount each edition updating their army as the edition churn changes what's good and what isn't. That's not always a bad thing because part of the point of a hobby is spending time doing something you enjoy and many people enjoy the process of building and painting armies.


Cost per year can be minuscule as well in wargaming. You can litterally just buy a cheap used lot on ebay and stick with that for years, if not for decades, just needing to buy the codexes at most. And some people play with free sources of rules anyway.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/12 14:51:27


Orks 7000
Space Wolves 4000
 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran



London

According to the internet in the UK the most popular hobbies are... reading, walking, eating out and gardening. Eating out could cost my than my model habit, though there is a wide range of prices and part of that involved money you have to spend on sustenance anyhow. Gardening is another widely varying one, but for the majority is quite cheap.

According to eurostat most common pastime is watching TV (cost starting at £159 per year, plus electricity and equipment) - about half their free time is spent doing this, followed by socialising. Between 20-25% of free time is spent on sport and hobbies.
   
Made in us
Rogue Grot Kannon Gunna





Atlanta, GA

the_scotsman wrote:


(AKA the reason Tau didn't actually capture the japanese market.)

"So, this model, it is about 1/2 the size of the gundam I just bought, correct?"

"Yes."

"And it has no articulation"

"Nope"

"The plastic is also not colored so if I don't paint it it doesn't look roughly correct"

"Yep, gray plastic"

"And it costs... more?"


I'm pretty sure Tau weren't intended to capture the Japanese market, they were intended to capitalize on the burgeoning anime craze and get all the Western anime fans interested in tabletop wargaming.
   
Made in us
Erratic Knight Errant






 Mr. Grey wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:


(AKA the reason Tau didn't actually capture the japanese market.)

"So, this model, it is about 1/2 the size of the gundam I just bought, correct?"

"Yes."

"And it has no articulation"

"Nope"

"The plastic is also not colored so if I don't paint it it doesn't look roughly correct"

"Yep, gray plastic"

"And it costs... more?"


I'm pretty sure Tau weren't intended to capture the Japanese market, they were intended to capitalize on the burgeoning anime craze and get all the Western anime fans interested in tabletop wargaming.


Capture the market by delivering none of the quality and none of the cost of entry whatsoever.

"Don't Feed the Troll" 
   
Made in ca
Nimble Skeleton Charioteer





I've been playing since 3rd edition, and this is my favourite time to be in the hobby, but I've felt that about other times too. I'm sure there will be another golden age in the future too.

I don't think there has really been a time I didn't like the game lol.

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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Wayniac wrote:
I never get tired of the "see guys it's not so bad collecting luxury cars is more expensive!" Argument. When compared to other wargames, you know the hobby of miniature wargaming of which Warhammer is just one part of, gw is far and away the most expensive relative to what you need to field a typical force. Price per model it's not but when you factor in how much you need it skyrockets.


Youre assuming people are actually interested in those other wargames....

What you say is not strictly true. Look at wmh. A competitive infernals army can set you back thr best part of a grande, and a lot of the legacy stuff is competitively worthless. Outside of this, I've built lists in the past (eg charge of the horselords and vlad 3) that would make your eyes water. Pp models are exorbitant, especially outside of the US and quality is often questionable. Never mind the fact there are other approaches to playing 40k (ie avoid the competitive scene, gamebuild,buy second hand eyc) that drastically reduce their high costs. It all depends on how you play and who you play with.

And in fairness to gw, 40k is only one way of approaching the game. Kill team is always an option and if you're up for specialist games like shadespire, warcry or newcromunda the buy in is very, very reasonable for very enjoyable games.

In any case, price isn't everything. Value for money often comes up, and as an enjoyer of the painting side, when I put 4 hours into each model, a box that cost me £30 or whatever is great value, never mind the fact I'll be using these dudes in 20 years. I can confirm that after having stripped some pp iron fangs (OK, pp, but the same counts for gw...) whose tab said 2003, and I've had them since the mid naughties.

Also 'Other hobbies are expensive is an extremely valid point. All hobbies compete for your time, for your money, for your effort. Not even hobbies. Commodities Pint of beer costs me £4. A bottle of decent whiskey costs me £60. And I've shelled out a lot more than that fir a bottle!The former lasts 20 minutes, the latter a month or less unless its very very special (ah, my lagavulin....). Filling my car with diesel is £40 and I literally just burn it up. My wife's best friend is a serious runner. She will quite literally run through a £200 pair of trainers in a month or two. And frankly, none of this is as miserable as being a Scottish football season ticket holder for a team that's struggling. You want to talk commitment? Value for money? 40k might cost me some, but at least I'm inside and warm, and not cold, wet, shivering and worse, watching miserable football for an afternoon. :p (but its for Mrs deadnight, so you know, I stoically grin and bear it)

Everything else costs time, money, effort or all 3 crying out that you can only compare 40k to some hobbies of your choosing that you can compare favourably whilst ignoring everything else is verging on the intellectually dishonest. Wargaming is a hobby I've loved for half my life. I've played and enjoyed games and models outside of the gw sphere for years. But the last 3 years? Gw all the way. Frankly I've not enjoyed my painting modelling and gaming this much in years.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/12 16:24:19


greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





Wayniac wrote:
Sunny Side Up wrote:
Well, today will probably be the golden age of 40K for the majority of players that start now (especially if they are in their early teens) and stick with it / return to the game after dropping out in their later teens / early 20s.

For those that went through that "first-giddy-teenage-love-with-warhammer" experience in a previous edition, that "golden age" isn't coming back.
Thats a very good point, too. I started in 1995 so I saw what I would consider the "golden age" as 3rd/4th edition. What we have now is sort of like the Byzantine Empire; it's good enough but a pale shadow of the old glory.


This is a good point, and interestingly enough, it's why 8th felt good to me when everyone else was posting negatively: in my formative GW years, 1989-1997, my favourite army was GSC, and there was a real sense of army as warband (Blanchitsu style!). Beyond my formative years, there were Witch Hunters- Sisters plus Inquisitors.

Then those things disappeared for a decade.

When they came back, so did I. To say that golden ages can't return is not true. When I saw the GSC dex at the end of 7th, my entire body went numb. I had been telling everyone for decades about the army I used to love that was now gone. It felt like someone in the games studio might have been one of the kids I taught or worked with in rec programs all grown up; obviously that isn't true- they're all Brits and I'm a Cannuck. But I couldn't shake the feeling that designers were reading my mind.

Two months later, they announced new plastic Sisters. Eight months after that, I was holding in my hand a plastic Rogue Trader! Then there were two more. And an Ambull, and a Zoat! And a Xenos Inquisitor!

And I've been saying since the Witch Hunter dex that Celestians should have shields and CC weapons. I'm sure you've seen today's Warcom article. The trend is continuing in 9th, though they had to put out the fantasy WHQ game before the 40k version, which could come in 2022, or more likely early 2023. Trueborn, and Blood Brides had the same feeling, but didn't come with models... Yet. But Celestians with shields didn't drop right away either.

I want GW to get spammed with hundreds of pics of converted Trueborn, Blood Brides and Haemoxytes to let them know that we want this. I do believe it will come. We are still too early in the edition to see how far GW will go with these kinds of updates- squig riders aren't exactly Cyboars, and Paragons and Castigators aren't echoes from the past either...

Looking forward to seeing how it continues to unfold.
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




I started in early 4th ed and left midway through 5th ed. I returned at the start of 8th. I think the idea of a “golden age” is a nostalgic thing, we tend it forget the bad parts of the hobby when we look back and gloss over the bad parts. Also when you look at the editions you have to remember how old you were at the time and how you played and experienced the game, mostly it was school clubs and very relaxed games back then.

Also miniature gaming isn’t the most expensive hobby going, I’ve spent more money on gyms and associated costs for fitness than I have for mini’s (wasted more money on stupid gimmick supplements as well). The problem is GW is on the high end price wise, other systems are stupidly cheaper compared to it. People not in on the hobby will baulk at the idea of mini’s (and super cereal scale modelling) because of the idea of paying that much for plastic, though dropping £30 on a tub of flavoured milk by-products is completely acceptable to most.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Spoiler:
Deadnight wrote:
Wayniac wrote:
I never get tired of the "see guys it's not so bad collecting luxury cars is more expensive!" Argument. When compared to other wargames, you know the hobby of miniature wargaming of which Warhammer is just one part of, gw is far and away the most expensive relative to what you need to field a typical force. Price per model it's not but when you factor in how much you need it skyrockets.


Youre assuming people are actually interested in those other wargames....

What you say is not strictly true. Look at wmh. A competitive infernals army can set you back thr best part of a grande, and a lot of the legacy stuff is competitively worthless. Outside of this, I've built lists in the past (eg charge of the horselords and vlad 3) that would make your eyes water. Pp models are exorbitant, especially outside of the US and quality is often questionable. Never mind the fact there are other approaches to playing 40k (ie avoid the competitive scene, gamebuild,buy second hand eyc) that drastically reduce their high costs. It all depends on how you play and who you play with.

And in fairness to gw, 40k is only one way of approaching the game. Kill team is always an option and if you're up for specialist games like shadespire, warcry or newcromunda the buy in is very, very reasonable for very enjoyable games.

In any case, price isn't everything. Value for money often comes up, and as an enjoyer of the painting side, when I put 4 hours into each model, a box that cost me £30 or whatever is great value, never mind the fact I'll be using these dudes in 20 years. I can confirm that after having stripped some pp iron fangs (OK, pp, but the same counts for gw...) whose tab said 2003, and I've had them since the mid naughties.

Also 'Other hobbies are expensive is an extremely valid point. All hobbies compete for your time, for your money, for your effort. Not even hobbies. Commodities Pint of beer costs me £4. A bottle of decent whiskey costs me £60. And I've shelled out a lot more than that fir a bottle!The former lasts 20 minutes, the latter a month or less unless its very very special (ah, my lagavulin....). Filling my car with diesel is £40 and I literally just burn it up. My wife's best friend is a serious runner. She will quite literally run through a £200 pair of trainers in a month or two. And frankly, none of this is as miserable as being a Scottish football season ticket holder for a team that's struggling. You want to talk commitment? Value for money? 40k might cost me some, but at least I'm inside and warm, and not cold, wet, shivering and worse, watching miserable football for an afternoon. :p (but its for Mrs deadnight, so you know, I stoically grin and bear it)

Everything else costs time, money, effort or all 3 crying out that you can only compare 40k to some hobbies of your choosing that you can compare favourably whilst ignoring everything else is verging on the intellectually dishonest. Wargaming is a hobby I've loved for half my life. I've played and enjoyed games and models outside of the gw sphere for years. But the last 3 years? Gw all the way. Frankly I've not enjoyed my painting modelling and gaming this much in years.


Well said.

   
 
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