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Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




This is the main contention for me. If woke GW wants to make gender inclusion into Astartes I'm all for it, unless it's a fantasy sexualised male gaze sort of thing, ala OG Repentia models.

If it's just a female head swap option, great, I'll buy it yesterday and twice on Sunday. But if it's boob armor and sexy poses, ala Tracer in 40k, then I'm out.
   
Made in us
Roarin' Runtherd




 harlokin wrote:
panzerfront14 wrote:

NOTE: I don't want female space marines because I don't particularly want to see any more space marine releases for a while, so that GW can bring the rest of the factions into this century. The endless deluge of Space Marines releases is honestly the most frustrating aspect of 40k to me personally, not what gender they are.


I don't get why this is a model issue, rather than just fluff.

Does anybody in favour of female Space Marines really want a sprue with boob armour, cartoon eyleshed helmets, and pouty-lipped heads?


The reason why I see it as a model issue is because the fluff tends to find representation in models, particularly for Space Marines as is. I honestly expect a head swap if female space marines are to become a thing but honestly I don't really care if they make female marines or if they keep it an entirely male monk esque warrior society even if parts stray from that.

At the end of the day I don't want to see any more space marine releases for some time, and I know well enough that should another change occur to Marine fluff they'll get models to match.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
This is the main contention for me. If woke GW wants to make gender inclusion into Astartes I'm all for it, unless it's a fantasy sexualised male gaze sort of thing, ala OG Repentia models.

If it's just a female head swap option, great, I'll buy it yesterday and twice on Sunday. But if it's boob armor and sexy poses, ala Tracer in 40k, then I'm out.


....If only we could look to some kind of analagous space marine-esque range in another game made by GW that they've done a phenomenal job going "you know what, no, this is silly, our main hero faction does not have to be all male for no reason, they're gender integrated now, here you go, have 50% more sculpt variety."

but alas, GW has never made Stormcast Eternals, so we will never know.


I don't know, I don't get why everyone just defaults to 'eeeeeee, muh virtue signal!!!!' it just makes modeling and painting a unit more fun if they're not all basically the exact same dude in different poses. I'm able to get a lot more variety out of "Mono Pose" kits like Namarti Thralls than out of "Multi-pose" kits like imperial guardsmen, because there's only so many ways to angle a lasgun barrel or tilt a big goofy bobblehead with a face roughly carved out of a potato, but having 50% male namarti and 50% female namarti increases the number of meaningfully visually distinct models I can create by a factor of 2.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in gb
Unhealthy Competition With Other Legions





Considering GW didn't do it for Stormcast or any of the female miniatures they've made outside of Slaanesh and Daughters of Khaine, why would anyone think they would do it for Marines?
You're saying "I would NEVER buy this thing the company clearly has no intention of doing!".
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




I personally find the faces of female models easier to get "right". Their hair usually makes up for a lot of the head, and their face is often more angular and pointed, so the shading is simpler to create.

Maybe I'm just a bad painter and have no idea what I'm talking about, but my female dnd models are always easier to paint. I would want to start a Sister's force, but I don't have that sorta cash.
   
Made in jp
Bounding Assault Marine




Stuck in the snow.

 the_scotsman wrote:
I don't know, I don't get why everyone just defaults to 'eeeeeee, muh virtue signal!!


No one is defaulting to anything, that's literally what it is. There is no actual reason for female space marines to be added to the game. Period.

The lore and flavor of space marines since the beginnings of "modern" 40k (not Rogue Trader) is focused around the concept of a monk order mixed with a warrior brotherhood. They are the only faction in the game (I'm including Custodes in this) which are entirely male. Flavor-wise the setting would lose that and be ret-conning one of the cornerstones of the lore yet gain nothing if female space marines were introduced.

And no, this isn't a "representation issue". GW has increasingly provided additional representation to the point that there is an entire plastic army of all women and every other army can field some % of female troops. GW has even started to place additional emphasis on Sisters as a front facing aspect of the setting, with them getting more novels and increasing presence in advertising. And that's not even mentioning that number of female characters both on the table and in the novels who have been introduced.

All of that is great, and I'm sure we'll continue to get a balanced depiction going forward. Sure it's a shame that there aren't more female GSC options or female Orlocks on the original sprue, but hopefully that'll be fixed in time.

None of that however is justification for the insane lengths of spite some people take to spitting bile about how one faction (and yes I am quite aware how numerous SM are) is male only...
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Jack Flask wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
I don't know, I don't get why everyone just defaults to 'eeeeeee, muh virtue signal!!


No one is defaulting to anything, that's literally what it is. There is no actual reason for female space marines to be added to the game. Period.


I love so much that you cut out the very next line of the quote, which is literally a reason besides virtue signaling to add them: because they allow you a wider variety of modeling options as someone who wants to build a visually interesting army.

It's the same reason that the transition away from "every marine head is basically just the same exact guy making slightly different facial expressions" was a good thing, and the addition of poses beyond "standing with legs spread unnaturally far apart" was a good thing.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in jp
Bounding Assault Marine




Stuck in the snow.

 the_scotsman wrote:
 Jack Flask wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
I don't know, I don't get why everyone just defaults to 'eeeeeee, muh virtue signal!!


No one is defaulting to anything, that's literally what it is. There is no actual reason for female space marines to be added to the game. Period.


I love so much that you cut out the very next line of the quote, which is literally a reason besides virtue signaling to add them: because they allow you a wider variety of modeling options as someone who wants to build a visually interesting army.


That reason holds absolutely no water. You know what would also increase the modelling options of someone who wants to make a visually interesting army?

Having Ork space marines! No not orks in looted power armor, actual Ork space marines with geneseed fighting for the Emperor and everything!

Oh and Eldar space marines! That's even more variation! How about Tau space marines? That's even more-erer variations!

Let's also completely ignore that with hundreds of chapters inspired by cultures all across contemporary Earth, plus a myriad of imagined cultures, Space Marines somehow don't have enough variation...

 the_scotsman wrote:
It's the same reason that the transition away from "every marine head is basically just the same exact guy making slightly different facial expressions" was a good thing, and the addition of poses beyond "standing with legs spread unnaturally far apart" was a good thing.


That's a completely apples to oranges comparison...

If you were asking for space marine kits to have a wider range of ethnic representation in unhelmeted heads, then you might have a point. I would wholeheartedly support that, as would the lore.

Adding female space marines is not just a cosmetic change.
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




Raises an interesting point: Where are all the people clamouring for Female Orks, Female GSC models, and female Chaos cultists? Why is it always centered around Space Marines and ret-conning their lore? I guess it's because they are the posterkids of the hobby? But still, I would find it hilarious if they made this giant female ork model with tusks and a "I'll kick your ass" look. Also, is it accurate that there are ZERO GSC models at all?
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Raises an interesting point: Where are all the people clamouring for Female Orks, Female GSC models, and female Chaos cultists? Why is it always centered around Space Marines and ret-conning their lore? I guess it's because they are the posterkids of the hobby? But still, I would find it hilarious if they made this giant female ork model with tusks and a "I'll kick your ass" look. Also, is it accurate that there are ZERO GSC models at all?


They...get....listened to and GW puts out kits with female tau, female gsc and female chaos cultists? I don't get it, why do you think people haven't been asking for these things? I'm assuming the whole reason this thread got created is because GW finally made more interesting and varied heads for guardsmen and are updating the ancient guard kit with the special weapon options its been missing since forever and heads that aren't just copies of the same dude making different faces.

People obviously did ask for female genestealer cults, that's why when GW put out a second wave of GSC instead of being all-male as the first wave, Jackal Bikers are 50-50, the crew in the Achilles Ridgerunner is a female cultist, and they made an alternate sculpt for a magos that is a woman.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Jack Flask wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
 Jack Flask wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
I don't know, I don't get why everyone just defaults to 'eeeeeee, muh virtue signal!!


No one is defaulting to anything, that's literally what it is. There is no actual reason for female space marines to be added to the game. Period.


I love so much that you cut out the very next line of the quote, which is literally a reason besides virtue signaling to add them: because they allow you a wider variety of modeling options as someone who wants to build a visually interesting army.


That reason holds absolutely no water. You know what would also increase the modelling options of someone who wants to make a visually interesting army?

Having Ork space marines! No not orks in looted power armor, actual Ork space marines with geneseed fighting for the Emperor and everything!

Oh and Eldar space marines! That's even more variation! How about Tau space marines? That's even more-erer variations!

Let's also completely ignore that with hundreds of chapters inspired by cultures all across contemporary Earth, plus a myriad of imagined cultures, Space Marines somehow don't have enough variation...

 the_scotsman wrote:
It's the same reason that the transition away from "every marine head is basically just the same exact guy making slightly different facial expressions" was a good thing, and the addition of poses beyond "standing with legs spread unnaturally far apart" was a good thing.


That's a completely apples to oranges comparison...

If you were asking for space marine kits to have a wider range of ethnic representation in unhelmeted heads, then you might have a point. I would wholeheartedly support that, as would the lore.

Adding female space marines is not just a cosmetic change.


I think it should be self-evident that while space marines being entirely male may be a critical element of their lore to you, there are others who view that aspect of their lore as somewhat secondary to the other elements of their lore (them being giant, genetically modified posthuman warrior super-soldiers).

Also, I do just have to add to your funny little display of incredulous outrage...if GW decided to introduce Tau, Eldar, or some other existing species space marines, I'd consider them the third most unbelievable variation of space marines to exist, behind sparkly vampire space marines wearing golden nipple armor and yiffing furry werewolf space marines wearing literal made-for-fething-werewolves power armor.

tau are a technologically advancing race with actual scientists and research. If they were having trouble fighting space marines, why wouldn't they take a suit of power armor and reverse-engineer it?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/13 16:37:04


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




I'm not trying to be thick here, I promise. But I never knew there were "Canon" chaos Cultists with female sculpts. Or female Tau, aside from literally one single character, Shadowsun (?). I never knew there were female tau sculpts/models. As I said before, I am all for it unless it's a horrifically male gaze sort of thing. I don't care about Astartes fluff. Burn it all down to the ground for all I care. Women in 40k have shown they can be just as horrific and grimdark as men, let them have their models.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I'm not trying to be thick here, I promise. But I never knew there were "Canon" chaos Cultists with female sculpts. Or female Tau, aside from literally one single character, Shadowsun (?). I never knew there were female tau sculpts/models. As I said before, I am all for it unless it's a horrifically male gaze sort of thing. I don't care about Astartes fluff. Burn it all down to the ground for all I care. Women in 40k have shown they can be just as horrific and grimdark as men, let them have their models.


Yeah, all the renegades and cultists that came out with Blackstone Fortress had male and female models, and the latest kit for Tau fire warriors and Pathfinders includes heads for female tau.

In general, most kits GW puts out post-8th edition or so that are for a faction that isn't explicitly monogendered or genderless includes both male and female sculpts, with the exception of the sort of 'burly man shirtless warriors' type units. Particularly now that for the most part, legs and torso in a kit come as a set, you can have different models in the same unit be slightly different sizes while still being compatible with all the weapon options. In other cases they just include a variety of different heads, like the Incubi kit includes female heads and the howling banshee kit includes male heads.

it adds a lot of variety especially in instances where the models either don't have hair or wear helmets that don't cover their full heads, like with some of the necromunda gangs, namarti, etc.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/13 18:00:11


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in jp
Bounding Assault Marine




Stuck in the snow.

 the_scotsman wrote:
I think it should be self-evident that while space marines being entirely male may be a critical element of their lore to you, there are others who view that aspect of their lore as somewhat secondary to the other elements of their lore (them being giant, genetically modified posthuman warrior super-soldiers).


No, it's not a critical element of the lore to me, it's a critical element of the lore period. It is part of the identity of the faction.

If you view that as secondary, then you either don't understand or don't appreciate the faction for what it is.

It's no different than someone asking for male Sisters of Battle, which I'd also vehemently oppose. It'd take away from the faction's identity while bringing nothing positive in return.

 the_scotsman wrote:
Also, I do just have to add to your funny little display of incredulous outrage...if GW decided to introduce Tau, Eldar, or some other existing species space marines, I'd consider them the third most unbelievable variation of space marines to exist, behind sparkly vampire space marines wearing golden nipple armor and yiffing furry werewolf space marines wearing literal made-for-fething-werewolves power armor.


Nice strawman. Because despite all of the gakky memes the Blood Angels and Space Wolves not as ridiculous as some members of the community want to pretend. Also even the goofily named additions they've received carry the DNA of the lore from as far back as 3/4e.

 the_scotsman wrote:
tau are a technologically advancing race with actual scientists and research. If they were having trouble fighting space marines, why wouldn't they take a suit of power armor and reverse-engineer it?


That's not what we're talking about though. We're talking about Imperial space marines. But ok, I'll indulge you.

Why don't the Tau make space marines?
[in setting] Because unlike the Imperium they don't have the uncountable millions of worlds to breed 0.01% of 0.01% genetically peaked individuals that they can use as biological clay to mold into a space marine.

They also have different biological development than humans, being physically weaker than humans. They also, as you said, understand their technology, which allows them to make more versatile equivalents to space marines such as battlesuits and stealth suits.

This has led the Tau in following a different philosophy of war where they use advanced vehicles and suits to strike with either overwhelming ranged firepower or swift scalpel-like hit and run attacks. Where physical brawn is required they outsource those roles to allied species or mercenaries (usually Kroot).

Making space marines requires genetic engineering ability beyond what the Tau seem capable of (most of their science seems geared towards technological advancement over biological). Additionally, space marines are resource intensive to make and don't achieve anything that stealth/battlesuits already can't do.

[Out of game] Because giving Tau space marines would take away some of what makes them distinct from the Imperium this making them less interesting.

Which is again, the sum of my point. You are selfishly asking for something that doesn't make the Space Marine faction in any way more interesting and only serves to dilute it's identity.
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot




On moon miranda.

Hey all, lets bring the tone down in this conversation a bit, I know the topic is contentious but if we want the thread to stay open it'll help, thanks!

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
harlokin wrote:Does anybody in favour of female Space Marines really want a sprue with boob armour, cartoon eyleshed helmets, and pouty-lipped heads?
Not sure why you think any of those things are necessary for women Astartes. Bit weird, frankly.

Not really. On Facebook I saw a thread where there were MANY complaints that the female Commisar released a while ago didn't look enough like a woman. I'm only half joking when I say people want visible tits on the armor. Otherwise, where is this extra modeling opportunity that Scotsman is talking about?

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Barpharanges







There's something immensely infantile about the concept of 'redundancy' (imo it would be very easy to argue a swathe of Xenos armies are redundant, and not say, the sheer number of redundant vehicles). There's like 30 Space Marine Armies and then there's Grey Knights and Custodes. They are also,

> All male
> All in power armour

But Custodes don't make Space Marines redundant. How would female Space Marines make Sisters of Battle redundant? They share power armour, but it would be like saying Custodes make Space Marines redundant. Christ, it's like saying *power armoured Inquisitors* make Space Marines redundant.

Incidentally another weak point is the fixation on 'archaic brotherhoods'. The Imperium, as far as I can tell, isn't actually sexist. But regardless, one could keep it that certain chapters (or simply just companies) are archaic and do not accept women.

I will also say there is an immense level of intellectual dishonesty in attempting to portray GW or people as '''woke''' for saying "It doesn't make any in-lore sense for Space Marines to all be guys, why can't there be female Space Marines?" It's pure poisoning the well.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/14 08:09:51


 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




 blood reaper wrote:
There's something immensely infantile about the concept of 'redundancy' (imo it would be very easy to argue a swathe of Xenos armies are redundant, and not say, the sheer number of redundant vehicles). There's like 30 Space Marine Armies and then there's Grey Knights and Custodes. They are also,

I will also say there is an immense level of intellectual dishonesty in attempting to portray GW or people as '''woke''' for saying "It doesn't make any in-lore sense for Space Marines to all be guys, why can't there be female Space Marines?" It's pure poisoning the well.


(Snipped by me)

I will absolutely 100% agree that GW is not "Woke" and their whole "you will not be missed" campaign was a marketing choice in response to the BLM protests and world mood at the time. They only care about dollars, which then raises the issue of, if the customer is willing to pay extra to have an all female army, why don't we have the sprus? As one GW rep told me at an event, Because GW doesn't want to piss off it's largely male, largly center right audience. Its still trying to play both sides. GW says buy more sisters boxes, and swap the heads, we won't care, you've just purchased twice the product!
   
Made in gb
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought




Nottingham

harlokin wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
harlokin wrote:Does anybody in favour of female Space Marines really want a sprue with boob armour, cartoon eyleshed helmets, and pouty-lipped heads?
Not sure why you think any of those things are necessary for women Astartes. Bit weird, frankly.


I don't really, and the last two are intentionally silly, but how does 'female' Space Marine in helmet look any different to 'male' Space Marine in helmet?
It doesn't. But not all Space Marines wear helmets.

the_scotsman wrote:....If only we could look to some kind of analagous space marine-esque range in another game made by GW that they've done a phenomenal job going "you know what, no, this is silly, our main hero faction does not have to be all male for no reason, they're gender integrated now, here you go, have 50% more sculpt variety."

but alas, GW has never made Stormcast Eternals, so we will never know.
Exactly. Stormcast pull off mixed gender super soldiers well, and I'd love to see more on those lines.



Jack Flask wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
I don't know, I don't get why everyone just defaults to 'eeeeeee, muh virtue signal!!


No one is defaulting to anything, that's literally what it is.
Really ain't, but if you're going to stay in ignorance, I can't change that.
There is no actual reason for female space marines to be added to the game. Period.
Customisation. Representation. Simple "I want"?
That's three valid reasons there.
They are the only faction in the game (I'm including Custodes in this) which are entirely male.
How do those goalposts feel?
And no, this isn't a "representation issue". GW has increasingly provided additional representation to the point that there is an entire plastic army of all women and every other army can field some % of female troops.
Call me when Sisters have the same market representation that Astartes (and Custodes, as you brought them in!) do.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:Raises an interesting point: Where are all the people clamouring for Female Orks, Female GSC models, and female Chaos cultists?
Orks are agender, and there are female GSC and Cultists.
Why is it always centered around Space Marines and ret-conning their lore?
When you think 40k, most people see a Space Marine. That's why.

Jack Flask wrote:No, it's not a critical element of the lore to me, it's a critical element of the lore period. It is part of the identity of the faction.

If you view that as secondary, then you either don't understand or don't appreciate the faction for what it is.
I forgot you were the arbiter on that. Silly me.

It's no different than someone asking for male Sisters of Battle, which I'd also vehemently oppose. It'd take away from the faction's identity while bringing nothing positive in return.
In what way is Space Marines being all male because of a genetic defect that we've clearly shown could be overcome in universe the same as a piece showcasing Imperial power politics and the tenuous relationship between the church and the rest of the Imperium?

Also even the goofily named additions they've received carry the DNA of the lore from as far back as 3/4e.
Women Astartes have DNA from the lore back in Rogue Trader.

blood reaper wrote:There's something immensely infantile about the concept of 'redundancy' (imo it would be very easy to argue a swathe of Xenos armies are redundant, and not say, the sheer number of redundant vehicles). There's like 30 Space Marine Armies and then there's Grey Knights and Custodes. They are also,

> All male
> All in power armour

But Custodes don't make Space Marines redundant. How would female Space Marines make Sisters of Battle redundant? They share power armour, but it would be like saying Custodes make Space Marines redundant. Christ, it's like saying *power armoured Inquisitors* make Space Marines redundant.

Incidentally another weak point is the fixation on 'archaic brotherhoods'. The Imperium, as far as I can tell, isn't actually sexist. But regardless, one could keep it that certain chapters (or simply just companies) are archaic and do not accept women.

I will also say there is an immense level of intellectual dishonesty in attempting to portray GW or people as '''woke''' for saying "It doesn't make any in-lore sense for Space Marines to all be guys, why can't there be female Space Marines?" It's pure poisoning the well.
Aye, gotta agree with all that.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
harlokin wrote:Does anybody in favour of female Space Marines really want a sprue with boob armour, cartoon eyleshed helmets, and pouty-lipped heads?
Not sure why you think any of those things are necessary for women Astartes. Bit weird, frankly.

Not really. On Facebook I saw a thread where there were MANY complaints that the female Commisar released a while ago didn't look enough like a woman. I'm only half joking when I say people want visible tits on the armor. Otherwise, where is this extra modeling opportunity that Scotsman is talking about?


Half of the models in the Namarti Thralls box look like this, and half look like this. You've got rather than the usual one singular body type/size/profile you've got two. it increases the number of meaningfully distinct models you can make out of the kit by a factor of 100% as compared to a version of the box where they're either all men or all women. I've made relatively few kits enough times to have to really be stretching for variety - namarti thralls, GSC acolytes, GSC neophytes, Wyches, Eldar Guardians, and Rubric Marines basically, and despite the thralls being technically close to "Mono-Pose" and the fact that their faces are all extremely similar bald heads, I was able to build 40 of them and make them all look meaningfully unique and distinct.

There's other factors to that obviously - there are many more ways to model units holding a variety of melee weapons than there are ways to model units that are all holding guns.

Even if the body shape and size doesn't change, having heads that are from either sex helps with creating distinct models just as much as any other distinguishing feature. And you only need to look at the hairstyles present in the Space Wolves kit to realize that GW has a tendency to run out of ideas super super fast when confined to just varying the facial and head hair configurations of one gender.

"OK lets see, short hair. Long hair. Beard. Mustache and beard. Just a mustache. Um, um...giant mohawk. Hair sticking straight up in the air like goku. Hair sticking straight up in the air like goku on one half, the other half is shaved bald. Did we already say giant mohawk? Oh feth how many different heads do I have to make for this space wolf kit. Throw Mr. T in there, I don't know. Balding on top but with a braid in the back like elsa from frozen and big sideburns."


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also, a point to note:

GW's new guardsman sprue has increased the available number of normal, unmutated human female heads that are not recognizably wearing 'The Sisters of Battle Haircut" from about....sixteen, scattered about the brand new sisters of battle range plus the Necromunda Escher box, to about 20, across the entire warhammer 40,000 model range.

If GW were to put female space marine heads in the box, if you wanted to make all-male space marines, you could, just by using any of the quite probably over 100 human male heads available in almost any kit for a human unit in the game.

[Thumb - 01.jpg]

[Thumb - thrall22-May03-Content22yh.jpg]

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/14 12:58:44


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in gb
Barpharanges







I have to ask to those claiming it was a critical element of the lore, what would really change if female Space Marines became a thing?

I cannot say it has ever really been a focus for the lore. Phraseology and word choice, sure, but are there really extensive paragraphs on how the Space Marines are a male brotherhood and that women would ruin that? To be clear, use of the phrase 'Battle Brother' *really isn't that important* to the setting (nor would it end - Space Marines would simply share an additional phrase, Battle Sister). It would not be removed by the presence of Battle Sisters (and hell, you could say that 'Battle Brother' is simply the term Space Marines use - regardless of the gender of the Astartes - it's not like that hasn't' happened in the lore already!)

So what would *really change*? Malcadors comments on female Primarchs wouldn't be canon or the one or two lines in the Space Marine codex would change? Phraseology might have to be adjusted? It's not like older art would need to be adjusted or anything like that.

I will also say that those people praising the sacredness of the lore seem to forget how much of the lore is a byproduct of marketing or business decisions and often made last minute or without any real concern for consistency. The Custodes example is probably the best; one author wanted to have them, but since they hadn't made any models, they decided there were none. As far as I can tell the deliberate choice for male only Space Marines was made because, at the time, 40k was primarily marketed towards a male audience in a time where models and games and media primarily had male heroes. It is not some sacred decision made for the continuity or preserving some ideal at the heart of the setting. It's an addendum made to explain why certain models hadn't been manufactured.

If your response, "Well, if it isn't a big deal, then isn't necessary" congratulations, you've collapsed your own argument by conceding it isn't a major issue and implementing it would cause no problems.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/14 15:45:03


 
   
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I would argue that we already have technical female primarchs in the Saint whats her name. If they took a bunch of her "aspirants" from the sisterhood, and Cawl did his Hey Presto Reseto magik, then we suddenly have Sisters with Black Carapace with a primarch, built in lore, and away we go. How is "But MUH LORE" the best argument to the negative that people can come up with here?
   
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Bodt

For those who belittle arguments based on the setting, my question is: if you're not going to respect the established lore/canon of a setting, then why get into it in the first place? What gives you the right to demand changes to an established setting based on your real world ideology, (which most of this seems to be about)

If you actually enjoy the setting, why demand these changes?

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Nottingham

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
For those who belittle arguments based on the setting, my question is: if you're not going to respect the established lore/canon of a setting, then why get into it in the first place?
Changing one part of that canon isn't changing the whole thing.

In that same vein, does this mean *any* criticism of any part of 40k lore means you should quit 40k? Does it imply that 40k's lore has never changed form "established" principles?
What gives you the right to demand changes to an established setting based on your real world ideology, (which most of this seems to be about)
The same right that anyone has to criticise parts of the setting - I don't think anyone can argue I *don't* have that right. At the end of the day, the only one who needs to be convinced by the argument is GW.

If you actually enjoy the setting, why demand these changes?
Because I enjoy the rest of the setting that doesn't promote a mindless boys-only mentality.
   
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 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
For those who belittle arguments based on the setting, my question is: if you're not going to respect the established lore/canon of a setting, then why get into it in the first place? What gives you the right to demand changes to an established setting based on your real world ideology, (which most of this seems to be about)

If you actually enjoy the setting, why demand these changes?


Because it's a miniscule change that won't impact or damage the setting and is effectively an aesthetic adjustment.

You are simply doing exactly what you accuse other people of, most likely; demanding something be maintained to suit your own real world ideology.
   
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 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
For those who belittle arguments based on the setting, my question is: if you're not going to respect the established lore/canon of a setting, then why get into it in the first place? What gives you the right to demand changes to an established setting based on your real world ideology, (which most of this seems to be about)

If you actually enjoy the setting, why demand these changes?


The setting that has been constantly updated/revised/changed? The one where there were originally female SM and inquisitor Obiwan? That setting?
   
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 Gert wrote:
 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
For those who belittle arguments based on the setting, my question is: if you're not going to respect the established lore/canon of a setting, then why get into it in the first place? What gives you the right to demand changes to an established setting based on your real world ideology, (which most of this seems to be about)

If you actually enjoy the setting, why demand these changes?


The setting that has been constantly updated/revised/changed? The one where there were originally female SM and inquisitor Obiwan? That setting?


Woah woah woah;

Inquistor Obiwan? Tell me more.


Also, if we get female space marines (back?) I want male Sisters of Battle. Guilliman has overruled the decree passive, or something.

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Bodt

 Gert wrote:
 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
For those who belittle arguments based on the setting, my question is: if you're not going to respect the established lore/canon of a setting, then why get into it in the first place? What gives you the right to demand changes to an established setting based on your real world ideology, (which most of this seems to be about)

If you actually enjoy the setting, why demand these changes?


The setting that has been constantly updated/revised/changed? The one where there were originally female SM and inquisitor Obiwan? That setting?



Yes I see that trotted out a lot. And indeed there did used to be female space soldiers at the beginning. However, apart from that being little more than a relatively asinine appeal to history, the canon has been established over the past 40 years of media, and they were ultimately not included.

Female marines is not 'a miniscule change' it's a massive change that rewrites that entire setting, if it were to be retconned. And if it was somehow put into the fiction now it would be nothing more than a shoehorning for the sake of 'inclusion' which is nonsense at the face, seeing as there are already multiple female factions, and an increasing number of female miniatures. If it were about inclusion and representation, this would be enough. But it's not, it's about fundamentally changing an established setting, for what, I can't say for certain, but if I had to guess, I'd say it being an attempt to establish precedent and gain a foothold in the setting for that particular ideology ...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/16 20:04:33


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I mean how does it change it? It changes three paragraphs at most.


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And I am eager to know 'which' vile ideology is seeking to gain "a foothold" in the setting or whatever delusional paranoid crap is going on.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/16 20:38:39


 
   
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Nottingham

queen_annes_revenge wrote:Yes I see that trotted out a lot. And indeed there did used to be female space soldiers at the beginning.
Aw jeez, but what about respecting the "established lore/canon of a setting"?

Almost like the "established lore" is constantly evolving for whatever suits GW.
Female marines is not 'a miniscule change' it's a massive change that rewrites that entire setting
How does adding women Astartes affect my Tau? My AdMech? Hell, even my guardsmen or Sisters of Battle? It only affects one thing - Space Marines, and it's not exactly "critical" to their identity.

Look at the descriptions of what Space Marines are - their gender is only trotted out as a rebuttal to "can I have women Astartes", never in isolation, and hell, there's no even a true consensus within the fandom over if Space Marines should even be classed "male". Personally, I don't actually class them as male, but you can't deny they are male-coded, for no good reason.

But you actually hit on an excellent reason WHY Space Marines should be made gender-neutral - "a massive change that rewrites the whole setting". You're establishing that Space Marines ARE the setting. You're agreeing that, no matter what strides are made in representation for the Sisters, for the Guardsmen, for the Tau, for the GSC, for Chaos Cultists - they're not the flagship 40k faction. Space Marines are. And if the flagship faction isn't emblematic of those strides of representation, then it's all a bit pointless, really.
Thank you for outlining my point so adequately!
And if it was somehow put into the fiction now it would be nothing more than a shoehorning for the sake of 'inclusion' which is nonsense at the face
Why is it? What's so wrong about that?
seeing as there are already multiple female factions
See point above - those "female factions" (which I'm assuming you mean "gender neutral", because there's only one true "female faction") don't hold a candle to the influence Space Marines have.
and an increasing number of female miniatures.
It's a great start. But call me back when they have the influence Astartes do.
If it were about inclusion and representation, this would be enough. But it's not, it's about fundamentally changing an established setting, for what, I can't say for certain, but if I had to guess, I'd say it being an attempt to establish precedent and gain a foothold in the setting for that particular ideology ...
And what ideology would that be? The evil boogiemen coming to steal away your manhoods?

It ain't that deep. Space Marines are iconic. We want to see women in the most iconic faction, the one that's supposed to be a hallmark for creativity and customisation, the one that is arguably the most adaptable and "blank slate-y" for a hobbyist. We want to see that endorsement of women in the most iconic position of the company, because that sends a clearer message of "hey, we're welcoming you to join in!" than "hey, you can't be like THOSE guys, but we made these ones just for you!! but remember, you can't be part of THOSE guys! k thnx bye"
   
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 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

It ain't that deep. Space Marines are iconic. We want to see women in the most iconic faction, the one that's supposed to be a hallmark for creativity and customisation, the one that is arguably the most adaptable and "blank slate-y" for a hobbyist. We want to see that endorsement of women in the most iconic position of the company, because that sends a clearer message of "hey, we're welcoming you to join in!" than "hey, you can't be like THOSE guys, but we made these ones just for you!! but remember, you can't be part of THOSE guys! k thnx bye"


I think this is the crux of the matter. People advocate for female marines see it as an "endorsement of women." People advocating against it see it as an "endorsement of the idea that men and women are equally suited for frontline infantry combat roles in the real world."

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/16 21:13:21


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