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Made in gb
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought





VonGerrow wrote:
People advocate for female marines see it as an "endorsement of women." People advocating against it see it as an "endorsement of the idea that men and women are equally suited for frontline infantry combat roles in the real world."
I think when we're talking about sci-fi genetically engineered post-humans that are far beyond any idea of what a "regular" human could ever accomplish, biology and the real world are rather moot points, yes?

If there's people out there who are opposed to the endorsement of the idea that men and women are equally suited for frontline combat roles in the real world, I wonder why they aren't complaining about women Guardsmen, who aren't genetically enhanced with magic space juice.

They/them 
   
Made in mx
Tunneling Trygon




Mexico

My big issue with the whole thing is that the lore doesn't make much sense. I mean, the lore reason there aren't female Space Marines is because girls aren't compatible with the Geneseed... And that doesn't make any sense.

Are you telling me that the god-like genius that was the Emperor couldn't solve the issue of one little chromosome? It is a laughable silly idea.
   
Made in gb
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It's doubly hilarious because it wasn't even the Emperor who made the geneseed, so the whole "if the Emperor couldn't do it, no-one can!" argument falls apart there too.

They/them 
   
Made in us
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So often these issues always devolve into angry white male privilege.

"Female Space marines would RUIN the hobby for me" - I daresay if that's true, you never truly belonged to or enjoyed the hobby in the first place.

"If they get Female Space Marines, I Get MALE Sisters!" - While I love that you are promoting a gender fluid stance here, I don't actually think you would want this. You are simply trotting out the tired trope of "their equality would lessen mine" commonly used by Proud Boys and other Incel myogynists.

"But MUH Lore" - again, and for the billionth time, it's clear you care nothing for the lore, you just don't want female representation in your hobby. If Primaris can happen, and Cog-boy lore is accurate, Cawl doesn't give a toss about what dangly bits you have pre-creation. He just wants viable soldiers. And as Gman has stated in several books, he thinks the Sisters of Battle are some of the best fighters in the entire Imperium, and wishes he had more.

Long story short - if bewbs scare you, there is the door, you will not be missed.
   
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 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
Female marines is not 'a miniscule change' it's a massive change that rewrites that entire setting, if it were to be retconned.

Would it? Explain how.

Unlike adding, say, male soldiers to Ecclessiarchy forces, which actually would require a change or repeal of an in-universe law, adding female space marines would be as easy as just... adding female space marines. Even as a retcon, which we've had plenty of before (Yeah, this particular tank variant has been around for 20,000 years, we've just never mentioned it before...) it changes nothing of significance. If, in the next edition of the codex, GW starts referring to 'Katie Sicarius' instead of Cato, nothing about the character's story actually changes. Nothing about how that character affects the setting changes.

As far as I'm aware, there's never actually been anything concrete written into the background stating categorically that Marines can only be men. And even if there were, the changes to the geneseed that resulted in Primaris marines open the door for... pretty much anything, really.

Adding female marines would be a major change for representation. But in a universe where someone's gender rarely ever matters, adding women to the most visible faction in that universe is a very, very minor change to the setting.

 
   
Made in ca
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So often these issues always devolve into angry white male privilege.

"Female Space marines would RUIN the hobby for me" - I daresay if that's true, you never truly belonged to or enjoyed the hobby in the first place.

Or you just need to learn how to shout "HERESY!"

"If they get Female Space Marines, I Get MALE Sisters!" - While I love that you are promoting a gender fluid stance here, I don't actually think you would want this. You are simply trotting out the tired trope of "their equality would lessen mine" commonly used by Proud Boys and other Incel myogynists.


I actually want male Ecclesiastical troops in power armour. I don't want to do space marines, but I would love some Ecclesiastical troops; but I've never wanted to play Sisters because A. Girl Cooties. B. Their armour seems overly sexualized to me; I don't want to be "that guy".

"But MUH Lore" - again, and for the billionth time, it's clear you care nothing for the lore, you just don't want female representation in your hobby. If Primaris can happen, and Cog-boy lore is accurate, Cawl doesn't give a toss about what dangly bits you have pre-creation. He just wants viable soldiers. And as Gman has stated in several books, he thinks the Sisters of Battle are some of the best fighters in the entire Imperium, and wishes he had more.


While Primaris is definitely, clearly; HERESY!


Long story short - if bewbs scare you, there is the door, you will not be missed.


Wait, where is the door? I'm still locked down. I'm not legally allowed to go anywhere as far as I know.


Imperial Guard - 1500 GSC - 250  
   
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Under the couch

VonGerrow wrote:

I actually want male Ecclesiastical troops in power armour. I don't want to do space marines, but I would love some Ecclesiastical troops; but I've never wanted to play Sisters because A. Girl Cooties. B. Their armour seems overly sexualized to me; I don't want to be "that guy".

Do it, then.

In-universe, the Ecclesiarchy isn't allowed to have male troops. There's nothing at all stopping you from having a force created by some jumped-up heirarch who chooses to ignore the Decree. Sure, they would be branded as Heretics when the rest of the Imperium finds out, but that's nothing new.

The background is intended to be a sandbox, not a precise quantification of what you can and can't do.

 
   
Made in gb
Barpharanges







I can't think of a more dated, boring, 2009-esque/I get all my knowledge from 1d4chan meme than spamming HERESY over and over again.
   
Made in ca
Drop Trooper with Demo Charge



Canada

 blood reaper wrote:
I can't think of a more dated, boring, 2009-esque/I get all my knowledge from 1d4chan meme than spamming HERESY over and over again.


This comment? Definitely heresy.

But seriously, I think it's a great in universe solution to a development you don't like; just declare it heretical, don't put it in your forces, and if you run into another player using it, perfect, their heresy is your motivation for a battle!



Imperial Guard - 1500 GSC - 250  
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




 Mr. Burning wrote:

Biological makeup changed, physiology changed, psycho indoctrinated....You basically end up with something that will look like and act like an existing marine and fit into the armour provided.

I'm all for a GW retcon..'...no one is special'. Fits the grim dark theme really well


This, the only real difference between a male and female Space Marine would be their name and origin. The end product will always be the same.

I saw other people saying they wanted more male representation in the Adepta Sororitas, now that doesn't make in universe sense to me. The Adeptus Ministorum could have more male representation in the terms of adding Frateris Militia, which could still have male and female models as well. Basically what amounts to cultists but in an Adepta Soroitas detachment.

I really want more female representation for Guard. We got some new heads in the upcoming upgrade sprue, which is a start, but more would certainly be nice.

I'd say Ad-Mech too, but that's somewhat similar to the Space Marines. The only difference is a name really. Though some more lower rank members might still have feminine features, before they take on even more mechanic parts.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/17 06:31:15


 
   
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 insaniak wrote:
 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
Female marines is not 'a miniscule change' it's a massive change that rewrites that entire setting, if it were to be retconned.

Would it? Explain how.

Unlike adding, say, male soldiers to Ecclessiarchy forces, which actually would require a change or repeal of an in-universe law, adding female space marines would be as easy as just... adding female space marines. Even as a retcon, which we've had plenty of before (Yeah, this particular tank variant has been around for 20,000 years, we've just never mentioned it before...) it changes nothing of significance. If, in the next edition of the codex, GW starts referring to 'Katie Sicarius' instead of Cato, nothing about the character's story actually changes. Nothing about how that character affects the setting changes.

As far as I'm aware, there's never actually been anything concrete written into the background stating categorically that Marines can only be men. And even if there were, the changes to the geneseed that resulted in Primaris marines open the door for... pretty much anything, really.

Adding female marines would be a major change for representation. But in a universe where someone's gender rarely ever matters, adding women to the most visible faction in that universe is a very, very minor change to the setting.


In my head the canon is that the emperor was a misogynist and sabotaged the gene seed formula to exclude women. I don’t recall many women in leadership positions pre-heresy in the lore, but then again it was focused on the legions... maybe he didn’t even sabotage the gene seed; maybe he tainted the results. Chaos space marine equivalents of apothecaries likely would have been the first to deign to experiment with the gene seed on adolescent females and found they took just fine to it, the imperium catches on after dissecting a heretic astartes too many and Cawl gets the big idea to try it himself... it wouldn’t even be a major retcon because it accounts for previous lore just fine.

Also of note is that the person criticizing a single chromosome as being some road block to the emperor and his brains from making the gene seed work, it is actually exclusively one gene on the entire chromosome that is responsible for determining physical sex; and it isn’t unheard of for that single gene to transfer occasionally leaving people chromosomally a gender, genetically the other gender, and the physical sex being also either or as pseudohermaphrodism and many other biological sex oddities exist as well... biology is weird and complicated. Anyways my point is that it’s not the chromosome; it’s the tiniest part of the chromosome, a single gene that would have theoretically been responsible for stumping the emperor.

Have an exalt, Sgt Smudge, the Scotsman, and Insaniak for making the argument I wish I was capable of constructing. Pull your punches though...

Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. -Kurt Vonnegut 
   
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Barpharanges







imo a lot of the people here arguing "it's a huge change" are basically unable to finish their arguments because they know they'll fall into open sexism. They'll be forced to reveal their entire position is based in a sort of 'girls are icky/liberal-SJW-Marxist conspiracy is trying to take over my corporate product' stance (as the one person talking about the efforts of an 'ideology' to infiltrate the game has clearly demonstrated).

I will say that overall the replies in this thread are pretty good, and show that there's been a massive change in attitudes over this dumb 'sacred cow' (ten years ago, suggestions of female Space Marines would've been meet with near total contempt).

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/17 09:23:37


 
   
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Jarms48 wrote:This, the only real difference between a male and female Space Marine would be their name and origin. The end product will always be the same.
Agreed, insofar as there are some differences between how even current Space Marines look!

Yes, they'll all generally look similar, but there probably would be some slight differences - enough to warrant whole new body sculpts? No. New head sculpts? Yeah, that sounds fair.

macluvin wrote:I don’t recall many women in leadership positions pre-heresy in the lore
Actually, there were a small few, and tended to have some good solid influence! You had Jenetia Krole of the Silent Sisters, Lotara Sarrin of the World Eaters, Guilliman's mum (sure, more of a local leader than an Imperial leader, but still commanded a great amount of respect within the Ultramarines Legion), and Amar Astarte herself.

Of course, they're a drop in the bucket compared to the lion's share of portrayals Astartes get in the Heresy, but they *do* exist. But there's definitely a gulf there.

blood reaper wrote:I will say that overall the replies in this thread are pretty good, and show that there's been a massive change in attitudes over this dumb 'sacred cow' (ten years ago, suggestions of female Space Marines would've been meet with near total contempt).
I'm fine to admit that I *used* to be on the "but muh lore" side, until I realised that someone else having the option of women Astartes literally didn't affect me in the slightest. Then with Primaris, and the dropped ball there to introduce women into what was clearly the flagship (and therefore most visible) faction, my view on women Astartes shifted entirely to positive.

They/them 
   
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More stories about Guillimans mum pls GW.
   
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Aren't we also forgetting about the High Lords of Terra? Several of the most prominent ones (Administratum, Navy, and Eccliesiarchy, I think) are all women, also Jeck herself wields no small amount of power.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 blood reaper wrote:
imo a lot of the people here arguing "it's a huge change" are basically unable to finish their arguments because they know they'll fall into open sexism. They'll be forced to reveal their entire position is based in a sort of 'girls are icky/liberal-SJW-Marxist conspiracy is trying to take over my corporate product' stance (as the one person talking about the efforts of an 'ideology' to infiltrate the game has clearly demonstrated).

I will say that overall the replies in this thread are pretty good, and show that there's been a massive change in attitudes over this dumb 'sacred cow' (ten years ago, suggestions of female Space Marines would've been meet with near total contempt).


You get an exalt for saying succinctly what I have been unable to in many paragraphs. Thank you!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/17 11:22:29


 
   
Made in gb
Barpharanges







 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
blood reaper wrote:I will say that overall the replies in this thread are pretty good, and show that there's been a massive change in attitudes over this dumb 'sacred cow' (ten years ago, suggestions of female Space Marines would've been meet with near total contempt).
I'm fine to admit that I *used* to be on the "but muh lore" side, until I realised that someone else having the option of women Astartes literally didn't affect me in the slightest. Then with Primaris, and the dropped ball there to introduce women into what was clearly the flagship (and therefore most visible) faction, my view on women Astartes shifted entirely to positive.


The biggest problem with the 'Lore Argument against Female Space Marines' is that it's basically just repeating, "Well, because the lore says so" over and over again. It's very clear the lore justification isn't a strong one, and it's not based in any concept of like, 'brotherhood' or whatever, it's based in some very dubious 40k science which effectively makes zero sense.

The 'lore reasoning' is literally just "Oh well, the Emperor was somehow the greatest scientist ever, but also really bad" or something. It isn't some schizophrenic rightoid fantasy of "The Emperor decided only MEN could protect the Imperium and WOMEN had to stay in the fething kitchen!" It's clear just a posteriori justification for not making female miniatures, and one that has been elevated in scope by the fanbase. There's barely any in universe lore which discusses it either. It's no different from the 'lore' that explains why there aren't female Custodes - it's because they forgot to make them.

If you look earlier in the thread there's people trying to act like the all-female or all-male warrior orders of 40k are a deliberate 'archaic' concept - but in this case they are extrapolating a theme which wasn't actually there. It's an interpretation. As far as I know (and none of the anti-female Space Marine types have actually presented any evidence to the contrary) there is nothing really sexist about the Imperium. The universe isn't focussed on traditional gender roles either. Again, I ask for evidence, and these people have nothing - because they are projecting views.

That or they are engaging in dishonest polemics about 'virtue signalling' (when by their own logic, they themselves are engaging in a kind of reverse, right-wing virtue signalling).

A female Space Marine with a helmet wouldn't even look that different from another helmeted Space Marine, perhaps being slightly more lean or slender (but then again, male Space Marines should also vary in their proportions a lot more).

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/17 11:49:18


 
   
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So different question:

Would you rather it be it's own NEW chapter, or folded into existing chapters? I would love to see BA/IF Female Space marines, not in a male gaze way, but I honestly think it would make for a pretty interesting perspective. How would it change/affect the chapter's structure, methods? How would it enhance the leadership or strategic mindset? IF would be able to suddenly fully populate their Flagship, and BA would be able to suddenly have a much greater influence in their segmentum.
   
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Barpharanges







FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So different question:

Would you rather it be it's own NEW chapter, or folded into existing chapters? I would love to see BA/IF Female Space marines, not in a male gaze way, but I honestly think it would make for a pretty interesting perspective. How would it change/affect the chapter's structure, methods? How would it enhance the leadership or strategic mindset? IF would be able to suddenly fully populate their Flagship, and BA would be able to suddenly have a much greater influence in their segmentum.


I think the best approach would be to make the emergence of female Space Marines a relatively new thing pushed forward by Cawl but have it also that the method spread to the creation of firstborn/whatever pre-Primaris are as well, meaning Female Space Marines can be found in both pre-and-post Primaris forms canonially. I think this is the *cleanest* way to do it.
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





 blood reaper wrote:
imo a lot of the people here arguing "it's a huge change" are basically unable to finish their arguments because they know they'll fall into open sexism. They'll be forced to reveal their entire position is based in a sort of 'girls are icky/liberal-SJW-Marxist conspiracy is trying to take over my corporate product' stance (as the one person talking about the efforts of an 'ideology' to infiltrate the game has clearly demonstrated).

I will say that overall the replies in this thread are pretty good, and show that there's been a massive change in attitudes over this dumb 'sacred cow' (ten years ago, suggestions of female Space Marines would've been meet with near total contempt).


Considering that SM are literally supposed to be you know in some cases, templar like monk orders... and in their behaviour and ranking system are actually quite similar, yes i 'd regard it as a failure for internal consistency and regard the demand for it as unnecessary.

Then again, maybee i am just jaded, but parading out the " you'll not be missed line" as if it was an epiphany and grand change in GW corporate structure is something that i think deserves total contempt. Because simply put, it's a corporation that only cares about the shareholders, it behaves that way, it increases prices for that matter, it applies typicall whale hunting strategies like a videogame even, yet the hobby is supposed to be inclusive? it ain't there are more inclusive hobbies out there, especially in regards to TG simply due to afordability than GW, and no ammount of internet brownie collection statements will increase that.

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A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
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I think we can all agree that 40k is not MLP in terms of inclusivity or open mindedness to new ways of thinking. That being said, attacking a stance by the shareholders as "deserving of contempt" is slightly odd. Why attack a company for attempting to make itself more inclusive? Especially after it's woken up (If I'm allowed to say that) and realized it's been far too cozy with the extreme right wing political spectrum for the last 20 years.
   
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Port Carmine

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So different question:
How would it change/affect the chapter's structure, methods? How would it enhance the leadership or strategic mindset? .


After bio modificaton, chem treatment, hypno indoctrination and all that jazz they should shouldn't be any fething different.

Kabal of the Mon-keigh's Paw
Coven of the Screaming Statues
Cult of Veiled Malice

"Death is only a concern if you're both weak enough to be killed and dumb enough not to arrange your own resurrection." PM713
 
   
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Not Online!!! wrote:

Considering that SM are literally supposed to be you know in some cases, templar like monk orders... and in their behaviour and ranking system are actually quite similar, yes i 'd regard it as a failure for internal consistency and regard the demand for it as unnecessary.


I mean Space Marines are supposed to be, in some cases, templar like monk orders, which in a previous post I directly addressed by saying that in those cases, there would be reason those chapters shouldn't have female members.

But it seems silly to say this should then effect every other chapter. There's plenty of Space Marine chapters who aren't warrior monks, and there have been warrior monk orders who did not fixate on the presence of purely male members. Why does a warrior monk order in the 41st millenium have to be all male besides aesthetics? Does 40k lore go on about the necessity of the all male monk order? No, it does not.

You can state it is unnecessary but it also seems entirely unnecessary to not have it present. By adding in female Space Marines there's a wealth of modelling options opened up, at the expense of a single line of lore (and if you add it in at a future point in the setting, said line of lore is not impacted).


Not Online!!! wrote:

Then again, maybee i am just jaded, but parading out the " you'll not be missed line" as if it was an epiphany and grand change in GW corporate structure is something that i think deserves total contempt. Because simply put, it's a corporation that only cares about the shareholders, it behaves that way, it increases prices for that matter, it applies typicall whale hunting strategies like a videogame even, yet the hobby is supposed to be inclusive? it ain't there are more inclusive hobbies out there, especially in regards to TG simply due to afordability than GW, and no ammount of internet brownie collection statements will increase that.


I mean all companies are literally interested purely in profit. I do not understand why people think "YOU WILL NOT BE MISSED" is such a big deal (though 99% of the people who seem to fixate on this marketing gimmick do always seem to fall into the categories of those who have a general contempt for certain elements of the populace.

   
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VonGerrow wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So often these issues always devolve into angry white male privilege.

"Female Space marines would RUIN the hobby for me" - I daresay if that's true, you never truly belonged to or enjoyed the hobby in the first place.

Or you just need to learn how to shout "HERESY!"

"If they get Female Space Marines, I Get MALE Sisters!" - While I love that you are promoting a gender fluid stance here, I don't actually think you would want this. You are simply trotting out the tired trope of "their equality would lessen mine" commonly used by Proud Boys and other Incel myogynists.


I actually want male Ecclesiastical troops in power armour. I don't want to do space marines, but I would love some Ecclesiastical troops; but I've never wanted to play Sisters because A. Girl Cooties. B. Their armour seems overly sexualized to me; I don't want to be "that guy".

"But MUH Lore" - again, and for the billionth time, it's clear you care nothing for the lore, you just don't want female representation in your hobby. If Primaris can happen, and Cog-boy lore is accurate, Cawl doesn't give a toss about what dangly bits you have pre-creation. He just wants viable soldiers. And as Gman has stated in several books, he thinks the Sisters of Battle are some of the best fighters in the entire Imperium, and wishes he had more.


While Primaris is definitely, clearly; HERESY!


Long story short - if bewbs scare you, there is the door, you will not be missed.


Wait, where is the door? I'm still locked down. I'm not legally allowed to go anywhere as far as I know.



I know this is just asinine whataboutism and you arent serious but aphyons feudal guard as scions would be great for this.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
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Ambitious Archon





Port Carmine

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So different question:
How would it change/affect the chapter's structure, methods? How would it enhance the leadership or strategic mindset? .


After bio modificaton, chem treatment, hypno indoctrination and all that jazz they shouldn't be any fething different.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
IF would be able to suddenly fully populate their Flagship, and BA would be able to suddenly have a much greater influence in their segmentum.


Wut? Astartes numbers are limited by restrictions imposed by the Lords of Terra, not by a lack of meat sack recipients.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/05/17 13:17:10


Kabal of the Mon-keigh's Paw
Coven of the Screaming Statues
Cult of Veiled Malice

"Death is only a concern if you're both weak enough to be killed and dumb enough not to arrange your own resurrection." PM713
 
   
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Barpharanges







It's kind of amazing that people are fixated on the idea Space Marines are all male because of 'lore consistency' (a dubious concept given how much 40ks lore changes and how inconsistent it is) and warrior monk stuff but then if it were suggested female Space Marines styled after say, Boudicca were brought it, it would be unacceptable.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/17 13:19:30


 
   
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 blood reaper wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:

Considering that SM are literally supposed to be you know in some cases, templar like monk orders... and in their behaviour and ranking system are actually quite similar, yes i 'd regard it as a failure for internal consistency and regard the demand for it as unnecessary.


I mean Space Marines are supposed to be, in some cases, templar like monk orders, which in a previous post I directly addressed by saying that in those cases, there would be reason those chapters shouldn't have female members.

But it seems silly to say this should then effect every other chapter. There's plenty of Space Marine chapters who aren't warrior monks, and there have been warrior monk orders who did not fixate on the presence of purely male members. Why does a warrior monk order in the 41st millenium have to be all male besides aesthetics? Does 40k lore go on about the necessity of the all male monk order? No, it does not.

You can state it is unnecessary but it also seems entirely unnecessary to not have it present. By adding in female Space Marines there's a wealth of modelling options opened up, at the expense of a single line of lore (and if you add it in at a future point in the setting, said line of lore is not impacted).

It is still questionable, as in all the orders share for the most part their structures with each other. And it is still established lore, despite GW "recently" gaking all over it for the sake of reselling marine armies. I prefer internal consistency in stories.
What would be actually better and more consistent would be , if gw actually bothered to increase the options for modelling for factions that are not specifically tied to gender lorewise, like guard f.e. which the new added sprue is probably one of the better exemples of GW actually doing something "kinda"* right. Updating SoB was also a decent step in the right direction.



*(the whole nonsense about the rest of the kit still beeing legally able to go on a drink with me says enough though in regards to actual diverse and technically more important factions getting completely sidelined for corporate interest and should in general make us consider GW's handleing or lack thereoff of their IP...)


Not Online!!! wrote:

Then again, maybee i am just jaded, but parading out the " you'll not be missed line" as if it was an epiphany and grand change in GW corporate structure is something that i think deserves total contempt. Because simply put, it's a corporation that only cares about the shareholders, it behaves that way, it increases prices for that matter, it applies typicall whale hunting strategies like a videogame even, yet the hobby is supposed to be inclusive? it ain't there are more inclusive hobbies out there, especially in regards to TG simply due to afordability than GW, and no ammount of internet brownie collection statements will increase that.


I mean all companies are literally interested purely in profit. I do not understand why people think "YOU WILL NOT BE MISSED" is such a big deal (though 99% of the people who seem to fixate on this marketing gimmick do always seem to fall into the categories of those who have a general contempt for certain elements of the populace.



No, my issue is whith the psychological exploitation that goes on that GW attempts to adapt the same skinnerbox tricks the mobile gameing industry is in some cases even attempts to build up their own mobile games P2W gimmik games.
The other thing is basically PR department makes non commited statement that is not even tangentially an issue for the background. It's hypocritical and people believing that it changes something is a parade exemple of gullability.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 blood reaper wrote:
It's kind of amazing that people are fixated on the idea Space Marines are all male because of 'lore consistency' (a dubious concept given how much 40ks lore changes and how inconsistent it is) and warrior monk stuff but then if it were suggested female Space Marines styled after say, Boudicca were brought it, it would be unacceptable.


TBF, GW is inconsistent for selling more marine stuff. It's like reselling an army for the what was that 3? 4th time?
It's buissness, that doesn't change that consistency increases the strength of a narrative, and i think it shows that GW fails to maintain it's narrative decently enough recently with the newer lore being.... questionable. (then again GW was never a paragon of particulary good consitency.)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/17 13:23:48


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 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
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What do you mean by "reselling an army"? How is GW "reselling" SM when they've never been off the market? New additions to a range aren't "reselling".
   
Made in gb
Barpharanges







It is still questionable, as in all the orders share for the most part their structures with each other. And it is still established lore, despite GW "recently" gaking all over it for the sake of reselling marine armies. I prefer internal consistency in stories.

What would be actually better and more consistent would be , if gw actually bothered to increase the options for modelling for factions that are not specifically tied to gender lorewise, like guard f.e. which the new added sprue is probably one of the better exemples of GW actually doing something "kinda"* right. Updating SoB was also a decent step in the right direction.

*(the whole nonsense about the rest of the kit still beeing legally able to go on a drink with me says enough though in regards to actual diverse and technically more important factions getting completely sidelined for corporate interest and should in general make us consider GW's handleing or lack thereoff of their IP...)


Space Marine Chapters haven't shared consistent structures for years; plenty of chapters in universe (and fan chapters) have unique forms, units and hierarchy. Nothing, by the way, in Space Marine structure or organisation at any point dismisses the possibility of women. It's almost like this point is entirely irrelevant to whether women can be Space Marines. Again, you fail to provide evidence for this claim it's inherent to Space Marines - except with a sort of vulgar historical comparison. Space Marines draw inspiration from historical warrior monk orders but are not literally those orders. Why not bring up issues with those other elements? Why purely the fact they are women? (I am going to make the assumption of sexism, personally).

This isn't a new development either. I believe Space Wolves have had a unique Chapter structure since 3rd edition? The game has also always encouraged people to organise their Space Marine chapters as they see fit. This isn't to mention the HH which depicts Space Marine chapters are radically different from one another.

I also feel your entire point kind of veers into a massive false dichotomy. You can have female Space Marines and female models in other factions. It's not one or the other. They should do both.

The lore has never argued women cannot be part of Chapters because they are women - it has argued they can't be part of them because they aren't compatible on a genetic level - which is very silly.

No, my issue is whith the psychological exploitation that goes on that GW attempts to adapt the same skinnerbox tricks the mobile gameing industry is in some cases even attempts to build up their own mobile games P2W gimmik games.
The other thing is basically PR department makes non commited statement that is not even tangentially an issue for the background. It's hypocritical and people believing that it changes something is a parade exemple of gullability.


I mean I am going to agree this is all bad but again, all corporations are bad, all businesses are bad - it's almost entirely irrelevant to this current discussion except as an effort by some people to try and turn this into a quagmire of why if you want Space Marines who are women you are an evil corporate wokeoid shill.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/17 13:30:41


 
   
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First it was the lore, which was addressed.


Now the goalposts have shifted again, and it's GW is a hypocritical woke Cashgrabing exploitative company and giving into this type of thinking is agreeing with the worst of capitalist exploitation.

This is a total strawman, not to mention shifting of the goalposts.

Jon Stewart called it the "BS of infinite regress", We can't afford to do ANYTHING, until we know EVERYTHING. We can't afford letting Astartes be women, until we know it won't be supporting greedy capitalist fat cats that are trying to destroy "OUR" hobby with their woke LGBTQ+ agenda!
   
Made in gb
Barpharanges







The biggest problem with the lore argument is that it's entirely arbitrary. The warrior monk element of Space Marines has never focussed on the fact they are all male.
   
 
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